Hi guys,

After been away for a looong time I have dusted my dices off and I am ready to play again, this time in HoR4. I'll be playing in an all Lion party where most roles are taken, there is the Tactical Leader, the Matsu Nuker, the Shugenja/ healer and the Face. Since my original intention was to play a ronin duelist I was thinking of adapting the duelist concept to a Lion School. However since I never played a Lion I do not know which Bushi will be the best suited for dueling. I haven't decided between the Akodo Bushi, taking Kenburo's Way (is it a good tech????) in th looong run, or a Matsu Berserker... I do will take Heart of Vengeance, Ranks in Luck, and the Kata: The Empire Rest on it's Edge to improve my chances.

So in your opinion which one will be the best and most important why?

Kenburos Way is bonkers.

The Ikoma Lion's Shadow might be the best Lion Clan School for dueling. In fact I don't even know if any of the Akodo Bushi or Matsu Beastmaster Techniques even work in duels, because all of them specify that they only work in skirmishes. I think the Free Raise/ignore armor part of the Akodo Bushi Rank 1 might work in duels too.

Also, don't take The Empire Rests on its Edge until you have a High Skill at Rank 5+ because otherwise the bonus will not worth the investment.

Not up on HoR, but how are relations with the crane?

If good, you could take different school( Kakita Dueling).

If bad or you just want to stay lion, I have to agree with AtoMaki the Ikoma Lion's Shadow would be the best, but be warned you will lose honor at a rapid pace if you use it to much.

Well, you can't go with Different School it's a banned Advantage. I assume that eventually it will be available through a module and earn a certificate that grants it.

I guess it's not bad to start with a 4 in Awareness, since it will help you the Assessment phase, and rank one will give you a +1 in all duel phases. The rest of the Ranks will not help that much, well only Rank three with the Strike Phase...

14 minutes ago, Daigotsu Masanori said:

Well, you can't go with Different School it's a banned Advantage. I assume that eventually it will be available through a module and earn a certificate that grants it.

I guess it's not bad to start with a 4 in Awareness, since it will help you the Assessment phase, and rank one will give you a +1 in all duel phases. The rest of the Ranks will not help that much, well only Rank three with the Strike Phase...

Different School is not banned, its restricted. Restricted mechanics require permission from the Campaign Admin staff to play.

Now that said, the problem is that Lions don't have any Schools that are good at dueling. its just a fact of 4th ed.

Ikoma Lion's Shadow is the only one I could find that had any Techniques that can close to working in a duel.

Yeah and believe me I appreciate your guys help!

I like the school.

I don't remember if you can play it, but Tawagoto's Army Ronin is one of best HONOR!!able characters you can make. It works similarly to Shiba Bushi, but without having to spend 2 Void Points on the roll. Tawagoto Army into Jade Legionnare into That Technique Which Gives You Simple Action Attacks Vs Lower Honor Into Kenburo's Way will make you a respectable duelist.

13 hours ago, Daigotsu Masanori said:

I guess it's not bad to start with a 4 in Awareness, since it will help you the Assessment phase, and rank one will give you a +1 in all duel phases. The rest of the Ranks will not help that much, well only Rank three with the Strike Phase...

Well, if you put "Iiaijutsu" among School skills maybe there is slightly more than that:

R1: +1k0 to all contested rolls (and both Assessmetn and Focus rolls are contested rolls)

R2: +1k0 to ALL Iaijutsu rolls

R3: can be applied to Strike

R5: if your GM is very generous maybe he will let you apply it to duels if you do it just before the duel starts...or maybe he will let you apply it at least to the Strike phase, since it is a kind of attack roll.

Assesment isn't a Contested Roll. Assesment is a roll vs Flat TN that can give you extra benefit if you scored more than your opponent. Both parties can and, most of the time, will succeed at their Assessment Roll.

R1 is dumb and broken because it doesn't state that you can't use it multiple times on the same opponent, giving you up to Rank in bonus dice. Lion Shadow is the pinnacle of bad school design in 4th ED, being pretty much a school made of +1k0 bonuses.

27 minutes ago, WHW said:

Assesment isn't a Contested Roll. Assesment is a roll vs Flat TN that can give you extra benefit if you scored more than your opponent. Both parties can and, most of the time, will succeed at their Assessment Roll.

I feel that it's complicated and all prone to GM's interpretation (or generosity).

Technically speaking the word "COntested roll" does not appear in description of what is an assessment rolls in 4th. ed. p. 87 and so you are definitively right...

....nevertheless, it is a kind of contested rolls since rolling more than your opponents by 10 pts is essential to get that precious +1k1.

Read up the definition of Contested Roll. You can find it on page 80 of the Core Rulebook. Contested Roll is a roll where:

1. Only one character can "win" the roll
2. TN of the roll is opposing character's result.

Assessment isn't a Contested Roll. It's TN is targets Insight Rank x5, and both parties can win the roll by achieving their respective TNs. Additionally, Lion Shadow cannot grab Iaijutsu as a School Skill - their school skill list doesn't include it, and they only pick from High and Low skill lists for their custom school skill, and Iaijutsu isn't either (it's Bugei).

You are definitively right in both cases.

You want to take the Akodo Kensai alternate path. Either the Akodo or Matsu Bushi can take that path.

The Akodo skills will allow you hit more often, the Matsu will allow you hit harder. Just pick which one you want.

well...but is the Akodo Kensai technique useful in duels?

As far as I remember I think it is not (but I could be wrong... I've been recently so wrong too many times!), unless you count receiveing a Strike as "the first melee attack" as described in the kensai technique.

Even so, I do not think it is really worth to add your Honour to Armor tn.

I do not know what happens in your games but in my own game the winner of a Focus phase who strikes first usually has so many bonuses to his Strike roll (Center, Free Raises etc..) that maybe even adding +8 or 9 points of Honour to Armor Tn really does not change too much unless the looser was so good in Focus rolling to negate all Free Raises.

4 minutes ago, LucaCherstich said:

well...but is the Akodo Kensai technique useful in duels?

As far as I remember I think it is not (but I could be wrong... I've been recently so wrong too many times!), unless you count receiveing a Strike as "the first melee attack" as described in the kensai technique.

Even so, I do not think it is really worth to add your Honour to Armor tn.

I do not know what happens in your games but in my own game the winner of a Focus phase who strikes first usually has so many bonuses to his Strike roll (Center, Free Raises etc..) that maybe even adding +8 or 9 points of Honour to Armor Tn really does not change too much unless the looser was so good in Focus rolling to negate all Free Raises.

Mechanically, unless something was released I haven't seen, the Lion don't have a dedicated dueling School, Advanced Schoool or Alternative Path. If you want to be a dueling Lion, you simply have to put a lot of your skill points into Iaijitsu and you'll be a good duelist.

However the Akodo Kensai are the Lion clan samurai who dedicate themselves to the sword. They focus on it almost exclusively. As far as Iknow its the only Lion Adavnced School or Alternative path that requires dueling. I think if you're talking a Lion that dedicated to the Katana over Warfare in general, he'd be a Kensai.

That's why, for a dueling themed character, I would suggest sticking to your original concept of a ronin duelist and going with the techniques I've listed. They are Honor based, so they should really fit a Lion Party.

5 minutes ago, WHW said:

That's why, for a dueling themed character, I would suggest sticking to your original concept of a ronin duelist and going with the techniques I've listed. They are Honor based, so they should really fit a Lion Party.

Well he always has the option to take the "other school" advantage and make a Lion Samurai who was fostered by and trained by another clan (most likely the Dragon or Crane - though the Crab have an interesting dueling option that might work well for Matsu) and advance in that clan's school until you get the abilities you want, then switch to a Lion School.

Think Matsu Seijuro - http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Matsu_Seijuro

1 hour ago, Jedi samurai said:

Well he always has the option to take the "other school" advantage and make a Lion Samurai who was fostered by and trained by another clan (most likely the Dragon or Crane - though the Crab have an interesting dueling option that might work well for Matsu) and advance in that clan's school until you get the abilities you want, then switch to a Lion School.

Think Matsu Seijuro - http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Matsu_Seijuro

He's playing in a heroes of rokugan 4 campaign. see bellow

23 hours ago, Daigotsu Masanori said:

Well, you can't go with Different School it's a banned Advantage. I assume that eventually it will be available through a module and earn a certificate that grants it.

I guess it's not bad to start with a 4 in Awareness, since it will help you the Assessment phase, and rank one will give you a +1 in all duel phases. The rest of the Ranks will not help that much, well only Rank three with the Strike Phase...

I did humbly request the Different School advantage for my character, just in case... if that doesn't fly then I have decided to play a Matsu Bushi, buy Prodigy some Ranks if luck and maybe HoV, and kick butt in duels to the death.

Thank you for your support guys!

18 hours ago, Daigotsu Masanori said:

I did humbly request the Different School advantage for my character, just in case... if that doesn't fly then I have decided to play a Matsu Bushi, buy Prodigy some Ranks if luck and maybe HoV, and kick butt in duels to the death.

Thank you for your support guys!

I missed that post about it being banned.

Try to sell it to your GM by having your Samurai be part of a "peace exchange" with either the Dragon or Crane (or possibly the Crab if you really want). You can then roleplay your Lion as a bit of an out-cast. He/she would have a different perspective on things growing up with a different clan, and lets be honest, the Lion are the most accepting people.

If you have another player who is interested, you could have a non-Lion family member who trained at a Lion school to complement your character.