10 hours ago, Hedgehobbit said:

I was thinking about an investigator like Charlie Kane or Harvey Walters. A sort of Benefactor class primarily for 4 player games that focuses on helping the other investigators do their thing. Like allowing other investigators to use your Resources to play cards. Stuff like that. A "Lead Investigator" that's actually leading the investigation.

Guardian.

On 2/22/2017 at 8:46 PM, Xenu's Paradox said:

Guardian.

I guess I could kind of see that, but it seems like that would be stretching it a little bit.

Here's the description of the class from the "Talents and Talismans" article:

Guardians like Roland Banks (Core Set, 1) feel compelled to defend humanity, and thus go out of their way to combat the forces of the Mythos. They have a strong sense of duty and selflessness that drives them to protect others, and to hunt monsters down. However, because they do so much to protect others, Guardians often put themselves in danger, and don't particularly focus on evading enemies.

They really seem more geared to frontline combat for the most part rather than support.

Teamwork is a guardian card, and has exactly the effect mentioned: sharing resources. The same pack gives us the unique ally who can take hits for any investigator at your location. They're also getting Stand Together soon.

Support seems to be well with Guardian's bailiwick.

As the game evolves every class is going to explore additional design space. Those capsule descriptions are just a starting point.

See also: The seeker description doesn't discuss mobility at all, but the Dunwich cycle has already brought us Shortcut and Pathfinder.

On Charlie Kane specifically, my money's on him being able to access allies from any class like Marie accesses spells. And maybe illicit cards like Marie gets occult? Or maybe vice versa. Or maybe there'll be a trait we haven't seen that suits better.

In any case, money's on him being the rogue in the box with marie and getting special access to allies, whatever the second trait turns out to be.

I see Charlie as rogue and/or survivor - politicians will do whatever needed to survive. Maybe if they bring back the subclass deck building for him. I do like the discussion around certain cards allowed via trait.

On 2/22/2017 at 3:51 PM, Hedgehobbit said:

I was thinking about an investigator like Charlie Kane or Harvey Walters. A sort of Benefactor class primarily for 4 player games that focuses on helping the other investigators do their thing. Like allowing other investigators to use your Resources to play cards. Stuff like that. A "Lead Investigator" that's actually leading the investigation.

I was considering designers using this archetype. Once I saw Jenny, however, who fits this sort of approach very well just designed as a rogue AND Charisma being a neutral card, my bets went down to 5% of it happening.

On Charlie Kane specifically, my money's on him being able to access allies from any class like Marie accesses spells.

Is my bet as well.

On 2/24/2017 at 2:10 PM, BD Flory said:

Teamwork is a guardian card, and has exactly the effect mentioned: sharing resources. The same pack gives us the unique ally who can take hits for any investigator at your location. They're also getting Stand Together soon.

Support seems to be well with Guardian's bailiwick.

As the game evolves every class is going to explore additional design space. Those capsule descriptions are just a starting point.

See also: The seeker description doesn't discuss mobility at all, but the Dunwich cycle has already brought us Shortcut and Pathfinder.

I think there's a distinction that can be made between "things a class can do" and "things that are part of a class's theme."

I wouldn't consider mobility a theme of seekers, but they have some cards that help that. So do rogues and survivors.

I'm not sure yet if I think "sharing resources" is actually a theme for guardians, or just that a couple of the cards that let one do that happened to land in their class.
Admittedly, I had forgotten about Stand Together, so that's one more than I thought there was.

Well, we'll see what the future holds as far as guardian and seeker themes, although I would distinguish between rogue and seeker movement effects in that rogue effects seem to deal with escaping enemies (Cat Burglar, Elusive) and seeker movement doesn't (Shortcut, Pathfinder). Survivors seem to be getting evasion effects more than movement. One of them just happens to add a move to the effect.

Survivor also seems to be adjacent to rogue on the class wheel, so some drift is normal. A great example of this is Stand Together, rogues get resource effects, seekers get draw, guardians combine both and share them with allies thanks to Stand Together.

Also worth noting is the Seeker description from the same article:

Quote

They wish to research forgotten lore, map out uncharted areas, and study strange creatures.

Seems like you need move to and through uncharted areas to explore and map them.

In the abstract, I would much rather new themes find space in existing classes wherever feasible. It creates more opportunities for existing investigators and card combinations.

The class wheel and similar design structures are somewhat flexible, of course, but it allows effects that would be problematic in combination to be separated via deckbuilding rules. This particularly applies to experienced cards, which are the most restricted with the most powerful effects.

Slotting a new class into that is tough, especially when card slots are at a premium thanks to the need for scenario cards. With 5 classes, and level 1+ cards providing granularity to cross-class access, it's easier and better to slot new themes into existing classes to maximize deckbuilding options rather than restrictions.

On 2/28/2017 at 10:18 PM, BD Flory said:

Well, we'll see what the future holds as far as guardian and seeker themes, although I would distinguish between rogue and seeker movement effects in that rogue effects seem to deal with escaping enemies (Cat Burglar, Elusive) and seeker movement doesn't (Shortcut, Pathfinder). Survivors seem to be getting evasion effects more than movement. One of them just happens to add a move to the effect.

Survivor also seems to be adjacent to rogue on the class wheel, so some drift is normal. A great example of this is Stand Together, rogues get resource effects, seekers get draw, guardians combine both and share them with allies thanks to Stand Together.

Also worth noting is the Seeker description from the same article:

Seems like you need move to and through uncharted areas to explore and map them.

In the abstract, I would much rather new themes find space in existing classes wherever feasible. It creates more opportunities for existing investigators and card combinations.

The class wheel and similar design structures are somewhat flexible, of course, but it allows effects that would be problematic in combination to be separated via deckbuilding rules. This particularly applies to experienced cards, which are the most restricted with the most powerful effects.

Slotting a new class into that is tough, especially when card slots are at a premium thanks to the need for scenario cards. With 5 classes, and level 1+ cards providing granularity to cross-class access, it's easier and better to slot new themes into existing classes to maximize deckbuilding options rather than restrictions.

As of now, the wheel appears to go Guardian, Seeker, Mystic, Survivor, Rogue, then back to Seeker. However, we have no guarantee that this will be enforced as strictly as in, say, Magic. We could very well see Investigators imnhe Core mold who dual-class "opposing" classes (Guardian/Survivor or Mystic/Rogue, for instance), with no loss of effectiveness.

12 hours ago, Xenu's Paradox said:

As of now, the wheel appears to go Guardian, Seeker, Mystic, Survivor, Rogue, then back to Seeker. However, we have no guarantee that this will be enforced as strictly as in, say, Magic. We could very well see Investigators imnhe Core mold who dual-class "opposing" classes (Guardian/Survivor or Mystic/Rogue, for instance), with no loss of effectiveness.

Even Magic doesn't enforce that kind of wheel. The Ravnica block featured 10 guilds covering all possible pairs of colors (and let's not forget that dual lands have covered all 10 pairings since they exist). If you want a really strict wheel, look to Conquest (with faction pairings defined in the rules); and even there, you'll find a few breaks.

12 hours ago, Khudzlin said:

Even Magic doesn't enforce that kind of wheel. The Ravnica block featured 10 guilds covering all possible pairs of colors (and let's not forget that dual lands have covered all 10 pairings since they exist). If you want a really strict wheel, look to Conquest (with faction pairings defined in the rules); and even there, you'll find a few breaks.

Yeah, I probably should have specified "old-school Magic" as access to enemy colors was more restricted/carried a higher cost in the days of Revised through Fifth or so.

The experience system isn't just an alternative costing mechanic, it's also a loyalty system with more granularity. It allows the designers to restrict card access by class without it simply being a yes/no binary, as in Thrones. So they can make Shotgun knowing a survivor will never be able to use Will to Survive to guarantee maximum damage, for example. Or cards like Police Badge and Ace in the Hole, knowing mystics will never have access. This opens up design space for effects that would otherwise be a problem due solely to the potential for future abuse by guaranteeing that certain combinations of effects can never happen.

We've seen investigator sets from 3 boxes that hew to the class wheel in one way or another, so I think it's safe to call it a pattern at this point. If we ever do get an investigator that can access across the wheel as a secondary a la the core box investigators, I would expect the level limit to be lower or to have a cap on the number of cards.

It is a little strange to compare it to Magic, though, which is extremely permissive about opposing colors in any edition. Just add the appropriate color of mana and you're good to go. Some colors combine better than others thanks to card and set design, but that's very different from Arkham, which outright prohibits classes, or limits it by card level or amount.

I just wanted to throw out there that I have created some custom investigators that you can download if you really want to try some new options while waiting for more official releases. They've all been playtested and seem to be quite fun and work well. If you do use them, read the errata on the download page as a couple of the cards have a few minor errors on them.

Quite a few of them have alternative deck building requirements and should be quite fun to level with the new cards that have been released.

FILES: https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/142036/8-thematic-investigators

If you want to have a look at their general design, this was my gallery prior to playtesting. They've been fine-tuned in the downloads, but this is just a bit for you to look at to see if you are interested in them.