2 hours ago, enigmahfc said:

There's actually an event near me next weekend that uses Hangar Bay rules, but you pick which list your opponent flies, which just sounds fan-freaking-tastic and fun as all balls.

That does sound like a great version... But in that case, you'd have to have prescribed list diversity.

I reckon a combination of the basic restrictions people are proposing - if both lists are same faction, no duplicate 'unique' cards, but if different factions, you may.

Doesn't stop someone bringing an obnoxious 2nd list (4 TLT Y's) to guarantee which their opponent picks.

2 hours ago, enigmahfc said:

There's actually an event near me next weekend that uses Hangar Bay rules, but you pick which list your opponent flies, which just sounds fan-freaking-tastic and fun as all balls.

I actually ran an event like this, and it actually turned out to be a pretty poor event. Players found out early which lists for each player were the weaker, and from that point on it was the only list those players played the rest of the way. So, what you claim happens in Hanger Bay is actually even worse when you are picking your opponents list, as you are flying the worse of the two lists instead of the better without the option of flip flopping based on match up. Many players quickly got frustrated and weren't enjoying the event as much as they wished, especially those on the lower tables since it quickly became obvious which of their lists was bad (the one they were playing).

I feel like the people who say "this won't solve anything" either don't understand the format, have no imagination, or never-satisfieds who want a perfect thing that can never exist.

The point of the format isn't to generate some tourney-for-the-ages where every table has creative, unique lists and the meta is just a bad memory. The point of the format is to minimize the rock/scissor/paper effect of hard counters and avoid fewer "this game is barely worth me playing" moments.

Well as far as hanger bay goes I am against the single or 2 lists of the same faction for a format. Simply because it becomes more of a netlist meta of which list is better than what list and so on. If there is a multiple list format then it should be two different faction no faction face off list. If Arc dodgers are your thing there is enough ship variety where you can make any faction an arc dodger (Interceptors, Protectorates, E-wings). Need a Fat Turret list, (Decimators, YT-hundreds, and JM5Ks. So there is enough to make two other factions for your play style. Or maybe you want to net list a Dengaroo & Palp Aces. Good at least there won't be Dengaroo vs Dengaroo or Palp vs Palp matches. And I have seen Palp beat Dengaroo so it won't be whoever is playing scum if two players bring the exact same list. Speaking for scum when the C-roc comes out Scum will get their sideboard mechanic. So simply having 2 different varieties of JM5k lists is not necessary. If you don't want to see Palp everywhere, play a campaign where unique are restricted to once per campaign turn so they are not everywhere in the galaxy at the same time.

Still there should be some standardization for the Hanger Bay if it were to be competitive. Which is why I won't play Hanger bay unless it uses the following rules for its formatting.

1. Two lists of different Factions
2. Two matches between two players in a swiss round, Must fight different faction in all matches.
3. Top cut single match but must play against different faction (could use some flexibility in determining which player chooses which list).

• example.1 Player A brings 1 Rebel list & 1 Imperial and Player B Brings 1 Rebel list & 1 Scum list. Player A gets to choose which list to play first and Player A picks Rebels for the first match. Player B will use their Scum List for the first match, for the second match Player A will play Imperials and Player B will play Rebels.
• example Players C and D have brought both a Rebel and an Imperial list. Player C get to chose which list to play first. Player C chooses Rebels for the first match thus Player D will be playing Rebels in the second match. First match will be C Rebels, D Imperials while the second match will be C Imperials, D Rebels.

Any type of single faction hanger bay I am against. The whole point of Hanger Bay is to play different factions in the same tournament.

1 hour ago, Kdubb said:

I actually ran an event like this, and it actually turned out to be a pretty poor event. Players found out early which lists for each player were the weaker, and from that point on it was the only list those players played the rest of the way. So, what you claim happens in Hanger Bay is actually even worse when you are picking your opponents list, as you are flying the worse of the two lists instead of the better without the option of flip flopping based on match up. Many players quickly got frustrated and weren't enjoying the event as much as they wished, especially those on the lower tables since it quickly became obvious which of their lists was bad (the one they were playing).

Also ran a tournament like this called "Enemy Hanger Bay" and I truly believe it is the BEST format if it was to go competitive. It turned out pretty interesting and fun but it also occurred after a league where members played your list and then played another persons list. This took people out of their comfort levels already and expanded their minds and capabilities.

With that said, 100 pts to stay. With the combo creep, practice times, Hanger Bay could really drive a percentage out of competing.

1 hour ago, Gibarian said:

I feel like the people who say "this won't solve anything" either don't understand the format, have no imagination, or never-satisfieds who want a perfect thing that can never exist.

The point of the format isn't to generate some tourney-for-the-ages where every table has creative, unique lists and the meta is just a bad memory. The point of the format is to minimize the rock/scissor/paper effect of hard counters and avoid fewer "this game is barely worth me playing" moments.

Some of my thoughts as well.

With a 2-1 format you could bring a list you want to try flying but know that it is likely to crumble in a real tournament as you're too likely to run into a hard counter for it. At least with if you can bring another list to play when that seems almost certain you can still play the list you'd maybe like to play when you have those matchups that don't contain your counters.

I've never gotten why some people can't seem to accept Blue on Blue games. You simply need to think of them as serious training exercises that may be getting run on a simulator. The forcing people to have lists from two different factions and NOT allowing factions to face off against the like runs into that one other issue: who gets priority when both sides would want to play the same faction? I've never seen a good answer to that.

I'm absolutely AGAINST 'two different faction' lists. For people like me, that only have enough money to keep up with one faction (and fingers in enough different games that the temptation to cut X-Wing out of my life is ever-present), it would only be one more strike against it, and one more thing pushing people away from competing: "Well, you need to buy enough ships from two different factions to play in the tournaments..."

And Steveno covered my non-monetary objections to the idea.

I don't think any restriction beyond "bring two lists and choose one to play after you see your opponents lists" needs to happen. And Gibarian hit my point right on. I enjoy diversity just as much as the next guy, but that isn't the issue I'm trying to solve here with this proposal. The game is actually pretty healthy in a lot of ways at the moment as far as list diversity is concerned (outside of parattani, things seem to be pretty varied), but it is too heavily match up dependent. Good lists that lose really bad to a few meta staples are going to either not be flown due to the meta fear or have to get crazy lucky and dodge all those bullets through a great draw. If we have players bring 2 lists, boom. That list can see table time for those games where it does dodge the bullet, and then sit and watch for the matches when you have to bite it.

If picking between those two options. I would stick with the standard one squad format. I have zero interest in lugging around two squads all day on a regular basis.

8 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

I don't think any restriction beyond "bring two lists and choose one to play after you see your opponents lists" needs to happen. And Gibarian hit my point right on. I enjoy diversity just as much as the next guy, but that isn't the issue I'm trying to solve here with this proposal. The game is actually pretty healthy in a lot of ways at the moment as far as list diversity is concerned (outside of parattani, things seem to be pretty varied), but it is too heavily match up dependent. Good lists that lose really bad to a few meta staples are going to either not be flown due to the meta fear or have to get crazy lucky and dodge all those bullets through a great draw. If we have players bring 2 lists, boom. That list can see table time for those games where it does dodge the bullet, and then sit and watch for the matches when you have to bite it.

Warning: Trolling:

I came to an X-Wing Tournament, realized I probably wasn't going to win, so I started an Armada fight!!!!

3 minutes ago, arkhamssaber said:

If picking between those two options. I would stick with the standard one squad format. I have zero interest in lugging around two squads all day on a regular basis.

I do have to admit that logistically it is a bit more of a pain for sure. That alone could be enough to keep FFG from even considering such a change.

2 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

I do have to admit that logistically it is a bit more of a pain for sure. That alone could be enough to keep FFG from even considering such a change.

FFG has put more effort into Team Epic and Hanger Bay prizes than Epic, in fact I would say Hanger Bay is their favorite. They might not care but it is logistically more challenging to bring two lists. Not a negative, but a concern. Maybe we will start seeing two list tournament trays!!! New business.

I would be interested in people using one list during Swiss and another for after the cut.

I'm not a fan, merely because I don't want to bring a second squad with me. I am not a fan of bring more than I need to to a tournament.

3 hours ago, StevenO said:

Some of my thoughts as well.

With a 2-1 format you could bring a list you want to try flying but know that it is likely to crumble in a real tournament as you're too likely to run into a hard counter for it. At least with if you can bring another list to play when that seems almost certain you can still play the list you'd maybe like to play when you have those matchups that don't contain your counters.

I've never gotten why some people can't seem to accept Blue on Blue games. You simply need to think of them as serious training exercises that may be getting run on a simulator. The forcing people to have lists from two different factions and NOT allowing factions to face off against the like runs into that one other issue: who gets priority when both sides would want to play the same faction? I've never seen a good answer to that.

It would be a two match round just like you would see on Android Netrunner. However the concern is that because of two matches per rounds the rounds will be longer and there would be less of a rotation. Also there is the issue when you get to the top tables as they won't be two matches but again as you said how do you determine who gets priority over which list to play. Ranking seems to be the simplest answer.

As for blue on blue I am fine with that on single list matches. But in a multi list I can see too many meta/anti-meta matches. Oh someone brought Palp Aces let me bring my Imperial Palp Assassin Imperial Build and save my Palp Aces for later. Again I think the one list setup we have for premier is the best option, but if you are going to bring in two lists you are going to have to take some agency away to keep the ultrameta out of it. Otherwise it is just another power-gamer tournament and we got enough netlists out there.

1 hour ago, arkhamssaber said:

I would be interested in people using one list during Swiss and another for after the cut.

Do you remember the Wave 5 and 6 meta? The good old Point Fortress kill the filler and run away and win by MOV? That would be the swiss list.

Again if you want to look at asymmetrical play with both players bringing two lists (different lists that is) look at how they structure their tournaments for Android Netrunner. (Double Elimination, prestige points). Page 5 has the explanation on how to chose lists or in the case of Netrunner Decks.

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/69/c5/69c52bbd-8eb9-4444-aa8b-c4eaa81fa55c/adn_tournament_regulations_v20.pdf

Keep in mind this is the elimination, in swiss both players play both decks (so 2 games) per round.

... During the first Round the higher seed chooses which side he or she wishes to play and is allowed to see the ID of his or her opponent before making the decision. In subsequent rounds each player plays the side that he or she has played the least. IF both players have played the same side then the player with the greatest differential between his or her two side plays that side...

Now again this is in an asymmetrical game where every player must have both a corp and a runner deck. X-wing is not that type of game but if you were going to do a Hanger Bay format this would be the example to follow.

19 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

It would be a two match round just like you would see on Android Netrunner. However the concern is that because of two matches per rounds the rounds will be longer and there would be less of a rotation. Also there is the issue when you get to the top tables as they won't be two matches but again as you said how do you determine who gets priority over which list to play. Ranking seems to be the simplest answer.

As for blue on blue I am fine with that on single list matches. But in a multi list I can see too many meta/anti-meta matches. Oh someone brought Palp Aces let me bring my Imperial Palp Assassin Imperial Build and save my Palp Aces for later. Again I think the one list setup we have for premier is the best option, but if you are going to bring in two lists you are going to have to take some agency away to keep the ultrameta out of it. Otherwise it is just another power-gamer tournament and we got enough netlists out there.

In "quick" games like MtG you can take the time to run multiple games to determine a match winner in any given round but considering how many think it is already hard enough to get rounds in with X-Wing needing to play two games so you could go one faction and then the other just can't happen outside of a long term arc involving multiple days.

Actually, I'd think the meta/anti-meta matches are what you're looking for. Without having two squadrons to choose from you're going to be looking at all meta style matches anyway unless someone happens to have discovered the "next" meta squadron or they plan on getting killed all day. As previously mentioned having two squadrons to choose from lets you have the tested "meta" squadron to use which is probably what you'd use if you had to stick with one list but then your second choice could be much less meta if it has a meta squadron that destroys it as that may not always be a worry.

For all of the complaints about carrying two squadrons around you just need to go back to what is probably the key issue and that is squadron building requirements. Dual cards can offer some "sideboard" like options but if you can just switch out some pilots and upgrades while using the same ships is it really that hard to carry the adjustments around? If squad 2 is 100% identical to squad 1 there's no more work although it does lose the advantage, but if squad 2 has 0% in common with squad 1 then there is a good bit more work hauling stuff around. I argue that the two should be allowed to be the same but then after that it all depends on how much more work you want to put into it.

How about this for promoting diversity:

Everyone brings one list. After each match, you swap lists with your opponent and fly your new list in the next round.

I think the only way you could actually implement it is in vassal, but it would be fun. It would encourage bringing quirky personalized lists that require practice to learn how to fly- something that you could do well with but your opponents would struggle to figure out (sablegryffon would do well with it). It was also tend to reward the players that are skilled at flying a variety of lists.

Hmm. I proposed this half as a joke, but the more I talk about it the more I'd actually really like to play in an event like that.

If doing hanger bay, I'd require no card in one list can be in another, and you have to alternate lists (can't play what you played last round).

Pretty simple, solves an aweful lot of the problems mentioned prior.

Id prefer that they HAVE to be same faction, but I get the prohibitive cost involved.

It'd really mix things up to do

Same faction

no card can be used twice, period between the 2 lists

but simpler is better

two lists... Nothing from one in the other... Must alternate.

We did a club one where we presented two lists and our opponent chose which we flew. Made for some fun match ups.