So question to tournament players (tl;dr)- Would you be upset if the official format moved from what is currently considered standard to Hangar Bay format?

Consider these points-

• Many competitive games allow for some type of adaptability to your opponents gameplay, deck composition, etc. Xwing has no such capability.
• There are a number of upgrades and strategies in xwing which are a certain waste of points if you run into a certain build.
• As the game evolves and more and more card interactions are available, it becomes more and more match up dependent. This means even well constructed lists fielded by highly skilled players can have a poor tournament showing through the misfortune of being paired with multiple lists which have a match up benefit against their own.

So what alleviates the issues arising from these points? The Hangar Bay format, while not perfectly doing so, does help.

If Hanger Bay became the official format, you would at least have some adaptability, and will never be forced into a match up which strongly favors your opponent (unless you are foolish enough to build two lists with the same weakness instead of building two lists which counteract the weakness of the other). The "mindgames" that come into list selection would be interesting, especially if you meet a player in elimination which you played in swiss. It still isn't perfect, as if you make the wrong guess and end up getting a poor match up anyways, you're still screwed. But in that case, at least you know it was your decision that made it such and not just simply an unlucky pairing.

So thoughts?

8 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

So question to tournament players

I'm not a tourney player, but to play devil's advocate, does this enhance list building diversity, or does everyone just bring 2 meta-net-lists and use the stronger in the moment?

Have yet to be able to actually participate in a hangar bay event but I certainly like the idea. I'd go even further and say I want restrictions on similarities between the two lists. Not same faction? No unique upgrades in common? No cards at all allowed in both lists? Not sure where to draw the line.

Hangar bay allows you to build something that specifically just crushes the current "netlist" and another more balanced squad. I think the end result would make it less likely for a single list to dominate.

Interesting. I think it should be forced to have both lists out of the same faction though, as majority of the "top lists" always include 1 certain pilot. Already denied having that pilot twice, but if you are denied multi-faction you cant have Dengaroo in one list and PalpDefenders as the other. Seeing as how typically what works great against Dengaroo doesnt work that great against Palpdefenders.

10 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I'm not a tourney player, but to play devil's advocate, does this enhance list building diversity, or does everyone just bring 2 meta-net-lists and use the stronger in the moment?

This is a fair argument to make, but as Hangar Bay has never been the format at a premier event, it is hard to say.

I think this would certainly be what some players would do, but those are going to be the same players that are already bringing net lists anyways. But alongside that, I think it also opens up the possibility for players who otherwise would be scared to run a tier 2 or lower list, to run one alongside a tier 1 list.

6 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Interesting. I think it should be forced to have both lists out of the same faction though, as majority of the "top lists" always include 1 certain pilot. Already denied having that pilot twice, but if you are denied multi-faction you cant have Dengaroo in one list and PalpDefenders as the other. Seeing as how typically what works great against Dengaroo doesnt work that great against Palpdefenders.

Same faction but ZERO cards in common. That would certainly force some list variety...

5 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

Same faction but ZERO cards in common. That would certainly force some list variety...

Zero cards, or zero Unique cards?

I believe that this format would make the rich richer mostly but i would play it.

Same faction, 0 unique cards sounds interesting, or just not duplicate unique cards and cross faction. Would certainly mix things up. Would be neat if this idea were allowed even if it was just an option for certain levels of play. Store one's championship same faction hanger bay style, no duplicate unique cards. Store two's championship traditional. Store three's championship hanger bay style, different factions, no duplicate unique cards.

It would add diversity without attempting to change the game.

I've long liked the idea of a "bring two-lists, look at opponent's list, decide which of your lists you'll play, simultaneous reveal choices" style for tournament. The big sticking point of course is what kind of added rules would you include with list building?

Minimalist: Here it is entirely possible for the "two lists" to be completely identical. While this is a huge drawback as your opponent will know exactly what you'll be playing and can select his be counter it is also a huge boon as it's simplicity means than anyone can participate even if they didn't know about it earlier. Commonality between the two list makes them much easier to haul around especially if all you're changing are cards.

No commonality between lists at all: The extended version of this even says they have to be different factions. Here you'd have two lists which can't share ANYTHING between them. It may make list building a little harder if you need to pick which list gets to use some key universal upgrades but beyond that it greatly magnifies the work that needs to go into preparing for such an event. Now you've got two completely different lists that you'd have to haul around making things more difficult. I'd also say it makes a player's job harder as now they should need to know two different lists inside out instead of needing to know one list and some of it's variations. The sad thing here is that there would still be nothing stopping someone from playing the same list every game (or ARE you going to do that too which may make list selection automatic so why bother?) although even then they may want to make the paper tiger look like a viable option.

Some may think the minimalist approach doesn't do enough but using it is really just penalizing yourself so I don't see why not. I also don't see the point of being punitive and saying someone needs to have two completely different lists. There is probably some middle ground if you wanted to find it but overall I like the idea when done with no restrictions on the two squadrons.

i think zero duplicate cards period is a bit much.

Personally i find it insanely difficult to not have Mk2 engines on SOMETHING in my imp lists. Defenders, Countdown, and SFs benefit too much from that card. And thats just 1 example nevermind the amount of PTL users (many ships simply dont do anything without PTL right now)

I don't see how duplicate restrictions help the format. If someone wants to bring one list they can live at a disadvantage.

I have been to a couple standard Hangar Bay events, and they're fine, but it usually boils down to having 1 list you want to fly, and another list you just sort of carry around. Basically, its a standard 100 point event with twice as much crap to carry around. I wouldn't be upset if the standard tournament turned into Hangar Bay style things, but I couldn't care less if they didn't either.

And yea, it would just be 2 meta/net lists for most people, so whoopie.

There's actually an event near me next weekend that uses Hangar Bay rules, but you pick which list your opponent flies, which just sounds fan-freaking-tastic and fun as all balls.

28 minutes ago, Panzeh said:

I don't see how duplicate restrictions help the format. If someone wants to bring one list they can live at a disadvantage.

Diversity. Although, of course, the stick in the mud you've described above can bring an utterly worthless second list and just play the first list exclusively.

While I appreciate the Hanger Bay format in the type of the following rules:

1. Two list must be different factions
2. Match ups are always against a different faction

I like that format as it eliminates those often thematic breaking faction mirror matches (rebel vs rebel or scum vs scum). I will hate to say this but it also extends rounds considerably. With rounds already at 70 minuets you would either have to a decrease the number of swiss rounds which lessens the number of opponents you face or shorten match lengths to say 50 minuets per match with 2 matches a round which could bring back the tanky point fortress meta. Also would strength of schedule or MOV be a bigger factor in determining tie breakers.

Further more the second match and the final round could depend more on what happened previous rounds. In the first match some one loses the MOV to be say 12 points due to time. The second match that person will not only be working to beat you but to also make up for those 12 points. In which case the 2nd match and subsequent rounds will depend greatly on what happened in the first match. If you play/watch netrunner tournaments where you have to play a different faction (runner or corp) at the end if you get shoehorned into your weaker deck it can be debilitating. Often in hanger bay format the 1st at the top gets to chose which list often leaving the runner up with a list that has the disadvantage in that match up meaning the top round might be a little more tilting than standard tournaments.

That being said I would love to play in Hanger Bay tournaments over standard tournaments, but then again I am not a tournament guy. I play standard because simply that is what everyone else plays and it is easy to get in a match. Still when it comes to official (aka premier) tournament format, I believe the standard tournament format is best for the top level tournaments by the sheer fact of simplicity of format which puts an emphasis on the game and skill at the current match instead of the results of previous matches.

Hangar Bay format is cool as an alternative format and I like it. But I don't like the idea of it (hypothetically) becoming THE standard format for X-Wing.

Requiring everyone to come to a tournament with two lists increases the buy-in cost for anyone interested in getting into the competitive scene. Where-as the current format has a relatively reasonable buy-in cost (as the recent X-Wing 101 article showed).

3 minutes ago, enigmahfc said:

I have been to a couple standard Hangar Bay events, and they're fine, but it usually boils down to having 1 list you want to fly, and another list you just sort of carry around. Basically, its a standard 100 point event with twice as much crap to carry around. I wouldn't be upset if the standard tournament turned into Hangar Bay style things, but I couldn't care less if they didn't either.

And yea, it would just be 2 meta/net lists for most people, so whoopie.

There's actually an event near me next weekend that uses Hangar Bay rules, but you pick which list your opponent flies, which just sounds fan-freaking-tastic and fun as all balls.

I think part of the reason for the "one you fly and one you carry" issue is because the Hangar Bay format is new enough that most people don't really have a strategy for it and they've had it as a side event at tournaments where people were already committing to a particular squad.

I know I've had enough squads that I like to play and do reasonably well with that I would never take to a tournament because there is a particular popular list that it struggles with. I feel like a hangar bay format would increase the number of those types of lists that end up getting played. If one of your opponent's two squads is my kryptonite, run the safe list.

5 minutes ago, Derpzilla88 said:

Hangar Bay format is cool as an alternative format and I like it. But I don't like the idea of it (hypothetically) becoming THE standard format for X-Wing.

Requiring everyone to come to a tournament with two lists increases the buy-in cost for anyone interested in getting into the competitive scene. Where-as the current format has a relatively reasonable buy-in cost (as the recent X-Wing 101 article showed).

The Hangar Bay rules for the system open allow you to bring a single squad.

1 minute ago, Derpzilla88 said:

Hangar Bay format is cool as an alternative format and I like it. But I don't like the idea of it (hypothetically) becoming THE standard format for X-Wing.

Requiring everyone to come to a tournament with two lists increases the buy-in cost for anyone interested in getting into the competitive scene. Where-as the current format has a relatively reasonable buy-in cost (as the recent X-Wing 101 article showed).

Just because one example exists of a competitive tournament list doesn't mean it's cheap to get into.

Dengaroo requires how many different ships and cards? Paratanni needs two copies of the Jumpmaster at least, and only uses one of them in the list. The only 'budget' Rebel Regen is the K-Wing because everything you need for Miranda is right there - except, of course, Sabine Wren (crew).

Warmachine uses the "multiple lists" with several caveats - same faction, of course, and most venues require that you play all your lists at least once. Some of them even require THREE lists. Gods, it sounds like a nightmare having a box with 40+ minis - and makes the comments about "twice as much to carry" sound like whining when it's moving from what, 2-6 minis to 4-12?

However, the clause of "play all the lists you bring" might be useful. Maybe you couldn't play the same list twice in a row? Or...

13 minutes ago, enigmahfc said:

There's actually an event near me next weekend that uses Hangar Bay rules, but you pick which list your opponent flies, which just sounds fan-freaking-tastic and fun as all balls.

Oh yes, this seems fantastic. I also like the idea of no duplicate unique cards. If it's a 'Hangar Bay' how does Vader get out of his ship and boogie on over to the Decimator? Or Palpatine show up in two different shuttles at the same time?

12 minutes ago, Derpzilla88 said:

...

Requiring everyone to come to a tournament with two lists increases the buy-in cost for anyone interested in getting into the competitive scene. Where-as the current format has a relatively reasonable buy-in cost (as the recent X-Wing 101 article showed).

This depends on what the building rules are. If your two lists can be the same there is no increased cost to "buy in" although the chances of doing well do go down. If you're willing to change a ship or two in you list the buy in doesn't go up much but the variation can increase.

There's actually an event near me next weekend that uses Hangar Bay rules, but you pick which list your opponent flies, which just sounds fan-freaking-tastic and fun as all balls.

THAT would be what kills the idea for anyone who can't come up with two good list. It just encourages you to use the same list twice so you know what you'll get to play while you can pick the list you'll have the easiest time winning against. If you want to encourage people to embrace a "bring 2/play 1" style you certainly shouldn't punish them when they can't bring two top notch squadrons to play.

Saying you can't play the same list twice really breaks down unless you've got three or more lists to choose from and to force the "can't play the same list twice" idea ALL three of those lists would have to be different from each other. Maybe if you LOVE list building and have a big collection to work with that may be good for you but if you want to raise the entry bar it sure does that as well. The "can't fight mirror matches" idea also runs into similar issues especially if you have to ask "who gets to use the desired faction when both sides what to use the same faction for the battle?"

To make it work best you want a diverse meta with a good R-P-L-S-S setup going. If it's just RPS you should see a lot of mirror type matches as you don't want to chance your bad matchups but sometimes the spoilers might get played.

Picking what your opponent flys is the only way to for Hangar Bay events to make it more diverse/different than a normal event.

The rules for them this year 9based on the System Open rules) IS that you cannot share upgrades/names/ships at all across the two lists, BUT they can be the same faction (unlike last year)

38 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Diversity. Although, of course, the stick in the mud you've described above can bring an utterly worthless second list and just play the first list exclusively.

You could certainly see some players pursuing this gamesmanship, to the point of bringing a really bad list and making it known to his opponent he would rather play that list in the hopes the opponent would play a less competitive list, but selecting his more competitive list in order to gain advantage.

TBH I don't think Hanger bay would fix much. IMO if you are gunna split up into different types of official tourneys, longevity would be better achieved by having a 100/6 circuit and a competitive *rotating* missions circuit.

I would enjoy it if tournaments became Hanger Bay as standard. I enjoyed it at last year's open series.

I've played in a tournament last year were you picked 2 lists: team 1 and team 2 and then had to alternative between them each round. So team 1 in rounds 1, 3 & 5, with team 2 in rounds 2 & 4. That was probably my most fun tournament I've played so far.

1 hour ago, WWHSD said:

I think part of the reason for the "one you fly and one you carry" issue is because the Hangar Bay format is new enough that most people don't really have a strategy for it and they've had it as a side event at tournaments where people were already committing to a particular squad.

I know I've had enough squads that I like to play and do reasonably well with that I would never take to a tournament because there is a particular popular list that it struggles with. I feel like a hangar bay format would increase the number of those types of lists that end up getting played. If one of your opponent's two squads is my kryptonite, run the safe list.

I have a crapload of lists that I feel reasonably good at, and I feel like I'm a good enough player* to do well with multiple lists, but it never fails that I always have that 1 list of the 2 that I know can beat either of my opponents...maybe that's just me really wanting to fly that certain list though.

I do like the Idea of Hangar Bay lists not sharing any unique cards at all, but that still means some numbnut will bring a Rebel 4 Y-Wing TLT list and a Scum 4 Y-Wing TLT list.

*mid to upper-mid tier with moments where do really well...If this was wrestling in the 90's, i'd be going for that Intercontinential belt, and may might that Heavyweight Championship match form time to time, but there's little chance of me winning