We've mentioned FLRG, but what about support carrion lancer? It triggers off of a skill action. Reanimates can add it at max size (or 9 with ardus in command) , and archers can add it at 4 trays (2 trays with ardus!) Both can use skill as a white action. Am I right in thinking this means an Ardus army could be running around with carrion lancers attached to archers in 2 tray formations? Would this actually be a functional build, or a waste of good worms? I think you would end up spending 24 points on a unit with 5 wounds that can stack extra blight on multiple targets. If the special triggers before attack, you could blight and then shoot your target and then inflict more blight... if its not after the action. I just don't see that being more effective than 2-tray worms with 2-tray archers instead of 2 formations of archer+worm. But that is the most interesting idea I see for MSU waiqar so far.

Edit: Nevermind, I think I mixed up the symbol there. What is the symbol on Reanimate Archers row 2? Equipment? I thought it was a a siege upgrade... hmm too bad.

1 hour ago, Elliphino said:

Lastly, I have no idea how line of sight works in this game. Perhaps Ardus could creep up hidden behind a blocking unit?

I'm assuming it's based on a line drawn between the closest points between two units. If that line is interrupted by terrain (probably only blocking or through covering terrain) or units, then you couldn't see the unit in question. So, Ardus could probably spend some turns creeping.

@drkpnthr Edit: Yeah, it doesn't look like siege is something archers can get (yet).

15 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

The carrion lancers are siege so I think you need the 6 tray archers minimum. Extra blight is extra blight so it might be a tad redundant right now. Still, it forces either the opponent to constantly rally or spend those banked inspiration tokens.

This is the pic I was using for the card back on Reanimate archers. I think I'm wrong, its not a siege upgrade but something else. They said 'Equipment' on the Necropolis. <curtesy of KrisSherriff's post https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/227291-rules-cards-from-team-covenant-video/?page=3 >. Ardus allows you to use the next higher size rank's upgrades, so 2 tray gets the upgrades of 4 trays etc.

I also have the thought of this: If you get down to your last rank of spearmen with a FLRG and one spearman tray, which do you have to remove first? If you take off the golem you lose a tray, but lose the upgrade too. But it doesn't make sense to have a single golem that counts as a lone spearman... Surely the rules will make you remove the golem first. But what about heroes? Will there be something that allows a surviving hero from a formation to break off as an independent? or is Ardus running around impersonating a single Reanimate by himself?

1 hour ago, Obscene said:

I'm thinking Rune Golems might be one of the best MSU units because they can get such a high threat value on their own(2 or 3). Running them as MSU also helps negate the biggest draw back which is the mortal strike/blight token synergy becomes progressively hard to apply to multiple different units.

The one drawback I see to Rune Golems in MSU is their poor movement dial. I think they have a role, but they would really need a variety of supporting units.

Dummy questions on approach :

Can you explain me what you mean by "anvil" and "hammer" ? As it may appear as quite clear that the Anvil is what will have to withstand the ennemy hammer and the hammer will have to crush the ennemy anvil (or not ?), I still don't know (and there is my lack of experience speaking) how to articulate them and adaptating them into the game.

With correct upgrades, skeletons can be an average anvil but they won't stand a real chance against a solid Daqan hammer composed of Rune golems, Taki and spearmen with upgrades. Having Ardus striding accross the battlefield does make me wonderinghow He will be part or not of or the anvil, or the hammer as He could support any of both depending on the course of the battle.

That being said and if my above remarks are of any value : An MSU strategy will give that poor Ardus a good run to make to be at range of as many units as possible. Having him dancing like that and even if He is the damage dealer of the Waiqars undeads, it will expose him somehow to any linebacker (oh i loved the Von Miller video, for someone who doesn't know a thing about American football (is that soccer?), I have pretty well learned what a good linebacker can do...ouch ) that will be able to guess Ardus next move.

On another side, I thnik that the escort mission is somehow poorly served in term of deployment possibilities. I have played some tactical rpg and some rts (oh yes I'm more a video gamer if you look on the long term, just jumped into boardgames 10 years ago) and I have seen incredible escort/ambush missions that where thrilling. So I thought for the Escort mission it would be nice to have an escorter deployment area spotted right in the middle of the field with the attacker being able to deploy on both sides around the escorter. ... ... No I'm in my own world there... it would be a total butchery for the escorter but still I find this mission very very bad served by the deployments cards actually. What's your thought about that guys ?

The "Hammer and Anvil" tactic is one that is quite often referenced poorly or inaccurately. The general tactic involved maneuvering your enemy into an oblique angle attack: You hit his larger formation with units that are weak and give on one flank, allowing his forces to press forward thinking they have advantage, while hitting him with a strong force on the other flank, driving him back and breaking his lines. Usually people would take advantage of this by sending in flankers once they saw it was a success, and this is often misconstrued by bad military historians (especially 1800s and 1900s armchair generals) with what would be "hammer and anvil" but is really just lucky use of oblique angle tactic.

The difference in Hammer and Anvil tactic is that everything was timed and prepared in advance, you had to KNOW it was going to happen, and when. You wanted your pressing force to hit the enemy line exactly when your other troops fall back. Then, the enemy formation would pivot, rotating in the gap between force differences, and your force HAD to hold the line and lock in, preventing the enemy from redressing his flanks or reinforcing his awkward positioning, throwing his morale into chaos. That was when you hit him with a hard, tight hammer from another well-disciplined but more maneuverable squad of troops. IF you had done enough morale damage with your sudden reversal, and IF he wasn't able to recover his formation to withstand the shock to morale, it would cause his troops to lose cohesion as some in the flanks turned to deal with the new threat, allowing your forces to overwhelm them.

I feel one of the best examples of this you can find is Breitenfield in 1631, where Gustavus Adolphus devastated an army that was, according to the armchair generals of the time and after, predetermined the winner. The key to his strategy was threefold: first, using powerful but cheap skirmishers to prevent the heavier enemy skirmishers from inflicting morale damage early on to his troops. Second, he provided a juicy target of what appeared as weaker forces in a bad position that the enemy pressed to engage and destroy. He prevented them from breaking and running by inflicting morale damage every time the enemy tried to close with well-disciplined troops that backed the softer force up and then would withdraw again, leaving them exposed, rinse and repeat. While the enemy general focused on trying to push this through (he was attempting an oblique angle tactic himself) Adolphus drove forward on the other flank with artillery support and a determined assault that wrapped the enemy formation and crushed the flank while the majority of the enemy forces were occupied with trying to drive home the oblique attack. Great summary here: https://deadliestblogpage.wordpress.com/2015/09/18/breitenfield-1631-the-lion-of-the-north-roars/

RELEVANT TO THIS GAME: What this would mean in Runewars -

To do this strategy, you would need to offer a juicy target that the enemy feels they HAVE to attack. Earlier it was suggested that Ardus wouldn't be good for MSU, but this is exactly what I think s hero's ideal role would be for in this tactic. Use a juicy Ardus or Kari out of position, or offer a speedbump of 2-tray reanimates or spearmen. When your enemy rushes them, back them up with some officer-reinforced troops that won't break and run if they lose a few trays. The whole morale concept is what makes hammer and anvil possible in this game where it isn't in Armada.

So with Waiqar, an Ardus with a mid-sized Reanimate tarpit to draw off the majority of the enemy strength to one side at an angle to the board edge. For Daqan, this would probably be Kari with a couple smaller trays of cavalry. What, cavalry you say? Wouldn't you want them charging the other flank and use spearmen? I don't see spearmen being a tarpit the way Reanimates with officers will be because of their Steadfast abilities. I think it would be better to have 2 formations of 4-tray cavalry. They could advance to mid-field before drawing off the enemy, giving them more room to fall back and draw the enemy out of position. One gets hit, takes some damage, breaks off from melee, Kari snipes from the sidelines, then the other cavalry slams in before they can recover. This is where the theory tactics will need to be worked out on the dial. The dial is just as important as positions because it determines timing. The rotation of initiative for this needs to be just right, something we need to number crunch (I plan to sit down and work it out later today) to beat the enemy forces. As the person attacking, you would need to figure out the cavalry timing rotation and choose a charge or something to disrupt it. However, the important part is this formation -would not be strong enough to win the fight, only outlast the enemy attack!- You want the enemy to get exhausted trying to kill you, to waste precious turns trying to crush you. You MUST inflict morale damage to press this attack home.

Then, with the new table space to maneuver, you charge in with the remainder of your forces. A massed squad of Archers pepper the remaining enemies with arrows, then two waves of carrion lancers one-two slam into them. Or with Daqan, your Spearmen drive forward with FLRG and crush the enemies flanking the main force or something (perhaps more cavalry, or a heavy rune golem formation). When the enemy forces break (MORALE) you swing the second force around and slam into the back of the main enemy force, still trying to hit you but unable to succeed from the morale penalties.

TLDR: Daqan uses superior mobility to inflict morale debuffs with flanking and lots of charges to tie up the main enemy force, while the rest of their army crushes its support and then flanks it. Waiqar uses a tarpit of Reanimates to sucker the enemy into a fight it can't win without support, crippled by blight tokens from the carrion lancers and archers that zip around it to crush that same support before turning to flank the main enemy force.

Doh! I forgot two important things:

1) Positioning with the ENEMY charge - This is going to sound crazy at first, but is a huge exploit that MUST be used to make this succeed. When an enemy charges your unit, they must turn to lock as many trays in contact as they can, matching the angle of YOUR unit. So if you position a speedbump at an angle to the long edge of the table, when they enemy hits that formation still facing the long edge with a charge, they must rotate -to match your formation!-. This allows you to turn the enemy. It is definitely going to be one of the defining player skills that decides tournaments: spinning enemy charges to perfectly position them for a unit that you told to charge later. Daqan spearmen need to do this to spin a tray of reanimates before the rune golem charges at the end of the round. Reanimate archers need to do this before Ardus comes barrelling in to flank the enemy at the start of the next turn. With a weak enough speedbump, you could even spin the enemy, they destroy your formation, and then you charge them through the space previously occupied by your forces (though hopefully you hit the now-exposed long flank of the enemy 9-tray, or what you did was pointless).

2) Skirmishers - To stop this tactic, use skirmishers like Kari and Carrion Lancers to demoralize the enemy and inflict early morale. Counter flankers will be necessary to stop this from happening. All cheap enough to still have effective hammers and anvils, but able to hold the enemy.

@drkpnthr thanks for the time spent to answer me. Thanks a lot !

Kari with Wraithstep may be a very interesting unit for Daqan tactics: sucker them in to charging her and turning their formation to an oblique angle, but have some kind of temporary buff to protect her for one turn only so she doesn't turn into an golden speedbump. Then use Wraithstep to switch to the rear arc (leaving them still engaged and suffering morale if they shift away) and then slamming them with cavalry or rune golems while they're locked in place by her.

For Waiqar, part of me is leaning towards the tercio formation, but I'm wondering if the difference in scale will prevent it from working in Runewars. The general idea is to have a central block of pikemen (two 9-tray Reanimates ~50 x 2, with Ardus between them ~40?) flanked on two sides by musketeers (2-tray Reanimate Archers ~25 x 2) with corners of arquebusiers (1-tray Carrion Lancers ~15 x2). I think that works out to about 220 points, without many upgrade options. Maybe you would have to shave some points off by making one big formation of Reanimates. I'm thinking you slowly advance the archers on each side by shifting sideways, keeping them facing the outside to protect the flanks of the formation from enemy cavalry. Then your reanimates advance slowly and defensively, trying to draw the enemy out of position, while the carrion lancers dart and wheel away, trying to get in a hit on the flanks of the enemy formations and blighting the snot out of them. When the time is right, Ardus shoots out and buzzsaws through the off-position enemy. I could also see this with a big 6-tray archer block (~55 after upgrades) flanked by a couple cheap 2-tray reanimates (~16x2), 2-tray carrion lancers on the front corners (~27x2), and ardus himself holding the middle (~40) which is about ~180 pts, leaving you room for some extra upgrades or adding some more reanimates for the front of your formation too.

@Elliphino For sure but the game is pretty generous on getting contact with an opponent with you only having to perform some form of contact and then you rank up, being able to stun on 3 and change your facing is pretty handy for being able to take a charge head on as well.

19 hours ago, drkpnthr said:

I also have the thought of this: If you get down to your last rank of spearmen with a FLRG and one spearman tray, which do you have to remove first? If you take off the golem you lose a tray, but lose the upgrade too. But it doesn't make sense to have a single golem that counts as a lone spearman... Surely the rules will make you remove the golem first. But what about heroes? Will there be something that allows a surviving hero from a formation to break off as an independent? or is Ardus running around impersonating a single Reanimate by himself?

The hero and siege upgrades each have their own defense and health so they would be dealt with differently. I'm assuming the spearmen player has to choose to have attack go after which ever unit is in the majority unless an accuracy was rolled. It seems slightly weird to have a lone golem or hero running around as their parent unit but it would work from a rules perspective to have it remain as them for simplicity. They wouldn't do as much damage as they would do by themselves but they do cost less than their usual cost. In addition, they probably get the previous upgrades as the squad so they might still be able to do some damage.

I suppose people can also house rule the issue too.

One of the best aspects of a front line rune golem is that even when everything else in his unit is dead, his dial is still very good and can still have a very strong threat bonus. FLRG will probably be a staple for a very long time, IMO.

22 hours ago, Obscene said:

One of the best aspects of a front line rune golem is that even when everything else in his unit is dead, his dial is still very good and can still have a very strong threat bonus. FLRG will probably be a staple for a very long time, IMO.

Maybe I am wrong, but I was under the impression that if you used a character or unit as an upgrade, you lost all of its base stats and only had the stats listed on the upgrade card (i.e. no dial for the Rune Golem when used as FLRG). I assumed that the health and armor listed on the upgrade card were for purposes of getting Aimed at.

49 minutes ago, Oloh said:

Maybe I am wrong, but I was under the impression that if you used a character or unit as an upgrade, you lost all of its base stats and only had the stats listed on the upgrade card (i.e. no dial for the Rune Golem when used as FLRG). I assumed that the health and armor listed on the upgrade card were for purposes of getting Aimed at.

If everything else is dead in the squad and the only tray is left a front line rune golem it will have 4 armor, 2 health, and threat 1 + plus brutal(which is +1 or +2) and the excellent dial that the spearmen have. The fact that he doesn't resort to the *dial* of a regular rune golem is precisely what makes him so strong. He goes from having a really bad and cumber some dial to the most well balanced infantry dial in the game, so far.

Just so it's clear, the model icon in the top right means that model goes into the group. By purchasing a FLRG for the spearmen unit, you replace one tray of them with that model. Because an opponent can not selectively target a model specifically, it's possible for him to be the very last thing alive in the unit. In that scenario, you actually have a better model/profile then just a regular old rune golem. The support carrion lancer isn't even in the same realm of how good(it is good.) this upgrade card is. More importantly, the FLRG being able to stay alive till the late game makes his armor very worthwhile, as thats when units threat bonus has been significantly lower through attrition and more then likely no longer present the ability to harm him except on the very best rolls.(or with a carrion lancer) Granted this is just my opinion and I have not actually played the game.
PS: You are giving up 6.56 points worth of models to include a FLRG in your spearmen squad. Making it even cheaper then just taking a Rune Golem by itself.

58 minutes ago, Obscene said:

Just so it's clear, the model icon in the top right means that model goes into the group. By purchasing a FLRG for the spearmen unit, you replace one tray of them with that model.

You always seem to have great references, but can you source this one? I've been trying to find out exactly how this 'add a unit' mechanic is going to work. Does it -replace- a tray or does it add a tray? When you add a hero, do they replace a unit or replace a tray? I haven't found a demo video explaining the mechanic or RAW explained yet. I think it makes sense that you have to pay for the unit size in points, and then it makes sense to replace a tray at the point cost of FLRG. Mostly I'm trying to figure out if heroes are going to be fig or tray... I think I remember a demo where they said heroes would come off the base to add to units. Do you have a RAW source yet?

I do not currently know how a small based hero is applied to a unit as a upgrade. I could see it going either way. If they don't replace the whole tray they will be very strong in elite infantry formations. It is a safe assumption that in the case of the FLRG that his tray will replace a tray of spearmen.
Edit: I don't believe you will ever add a Tray as upgrade to modify the formation system, that seems to be rather *hard coded* design into unit balance for cost.

It's a good question. I think in the case of Kari, Ardus, Rune Golem, and Carrion Lancer, they will be added as a whole tray, replacing one tray in the formation. This is contrasted with upgrades like magic-users, musicians, standard-bearers, and champions who look like they will replace a single figure in the formation, rather than adding their own tray. I think it works this way because the unique heroes have a special base that fits a single figure which allows them to have dynamic poses without bumping into other figures. Of course, this is all speculation at this point. I can't wait to read the full rules!

27 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

It's a good question. I think in the case of Kari, Ardus, Rune Golem, and Carrion Lancer, they will be added as a whole tray, replacing one tray in the formation. This is contrasted with upgrades like magic-users, musicians, standard-bearers, and champions who look like they will replace a single figure in the formation, rather than adding their own tray. I think it works this way because the unique heroes have a special base that fits a single figure which allows them to have dynamic poses without bumping into other figures. Of course, this is all speculation at this point. I can't wait to read the full rules!

I'd agree with the champion, but I wonder why there's a tray in that box if these guys are simply replacing a basic mook. Suppose it's good to have extras. Like the hundreds of flight stands I have for X-Wing.

I don't think Kari or Ardus will replace a basic mook, but will instead run on a tray of their lonesome while in formation. I just wish they wouldn't so they would be better in elite infantry units.

43 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

I'd agree with the champion, but I wonder why there's a tray in that box if these guys are simply replacing a basic mook. Suppose it's good to have extras. Like the hundreds of flight stands I have for X-Wing.

Yeah, I think an extra tray is exactly the point. If you bought 2 core sets, you have 8 trays of infantry. If you then add the commander box, you can put all four of them in your squad toward the front and have an extra tray to fill up a 3x3 configuration for infantry.

1 hour ago, Kubernes said:

I'd agree with the champion, but I wonder why there's a tray in that box if these guys are simply replacing a basic mook. Suppose it's good to have extras. Like the hundreds of flight stands I have for X-Wing.

I think its because the normal guys seem to be coming in multiples of 2 trays, so if you have two core sets (or core and some infantry expansions when those come out) and buy an officer expansioon you have enough trays for the 9-tray formation (8 trays of normals, 1 tray of officers).

I think this is the rare case of FFG saving us a little $.

Edit: Whoops budger beat me to saying it.

I was thinking about a oathsworn calvary deathstar, and this unit is just way to fragile for its point cost per effective health unless you run them with the armor modifier always on. I think they trade pretty terribly in any head on engagement. The unit is really priced because of it's ability to sit back till the right opportunity and charge into a flank in downtown all the way from the middle of no where. It can move 6 in a turn, where most units only move 3. It can really sit back and wait to get the enemy. It's damage is pretty high on the flank as well but it doesn't trade very well wound for wound with much of anything unless your armoring up, so you really have to get the flank charge and reduce the threat value of the flank facing the unit.
I can easily see myself holding two squads of 4 trays in reserve until the enemys ranged threats have been peppered down by kari or a favorable charge has opened it self up. Reanimate archers just destroy the Oathsworn Calvary, so limiting opportunities to be attacked effectively is must to protect this expensive unit. Depending on the morale decks frequency to do meaningful harm to the opponent I could easily see putting bull pennons on them. With 2 red dice(3 on the flank!) you will very easily be running at 3 or 4 panic tokens on the charge which could end up being very strong.
I am really eager to see what upgrades come available to this unit to press its power even further, moment of inspiration might be absurd on it.

What an awesome thread, well done

That would be at least 68 points in reserve, 1/3 of your army. You would need to be careful of swarmy armies, maybe some cheap midsized spearmen units that lock the enemy in place without being too wide to spin easily?