Ok so obviously we have seen people talking about the Que and how it affects an actions resolution. (resolving each ability within the action on a first come first serve basis but the actions themselves still being 1 thing at a time... which was my understanding of how RAW worked from the beginning this is not about a debate about that). The interesting thing and question that I have, some may have already been answer some not, is with some of the new sets. For example some one gave an example where Rey player 1 has Han rolled out and plays a Hold out blaster on Rey gaining 2 actions, then resolves Han's dice to kill Ben who's before ability triggers playing a Luke's lightsaber on Rey Player number 2 giving Rey Player 2 an action. I would assume that since Rey Player 1 gained the action before Rey Player 2 that Rey Player 1 would get to resolve that action followed by Rey Player 2, but while that is an assumption I do not believe it is expressly stated any where.

The NEXT interesting one comes from Jango's interaction with an opponents "your eye's can deceive you" which reads "after one of your dice rolls a Shield you may exhaust this support to turn an opponent's die to any side" Ok so lets make the scenario. I activate Luke (Luke exhausting and rolling his die into the pool is added to the Que, Luke's After ability would be added into the que but would trigger after.) now Jango's ability reads "after an opponent activates a character you may activate this character" does that mean that he has to decide that BEFORE i roll the dice or can he wait to see the dice? Finally with Your eye's can deceive you having to be TRIGGERED after the dice have already been shown would the que look something like, (Luke activates, draw card added to que, Jango player decides to activate ability added to que, Dice are rolled Shield side showed player decides to trigger "your eye's can deceive you" support ability added to que, Card is drawn, Jango is rolled, your eye's can deceive you changes a jango dice to a blank)? Or would you guys rule it differently? does this mean that a Jango player should have to decide whether or not they are going to trigger BEFORE the dice are rolled? or how would you guys interpret this. I know activating a character means rolling out their dice, but what trigger condition happens first the one that triggers on the character activation or the one that triggers on the dice result? I would figure the character activation would trigger before the dice one because you have to activate a character to roll their dice.

Honestly, I don't know anymore. Lukas broke the queue by band-aiding the last interaction, so who knows what their intent would be here.

The timing on "may" is still somewhat vague. A lot of people think that you have to make the decision as soon as the ability triggers. I don't think it's that clear - Destiny puts entire abilities into the queue, and you don't resolve any part of them until they reach the head. That includes the "you may". The way I read it, the trigger isn't optional - it always happens, Jango's ability always goes into the queue, and it will always resolve, but you can choose for it to have no effect when it resolves.

Relevant:

- When a triggered ability meets its trigger condition, the ability resolves.
- Players must resolve as much of an ability as they are able to, unless it includes the word “may” or explicitly gives the player a choice.

Note that the trigger doesn't say anything about it being optional - it's very declarative. The optional part of "may" is defined as part of resolution.

Some other random opinions:

- Triggering on activation vs. dice shown: No idea. The timing isn't well enough defined. Honestly, I can see arguments for all three possibilities, but my best read is that they'd be simultaneous.

2 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

- Triggering on activation vs. dice shown: No idea. The timing isn't well enough defined. Honestly, I can see arguments for all three possibilities, but my best read is that they'd be simultaneous.

This is the kicker right here. Because you have to resolve them first in first out 2 abilities can not trigger at the exact same time because they can not resolve at the exact same time. GAAAH... any way I will wait for more thoughts all in all I can really see it as either way with this one thank you.

Send them a rules query. The more data they collect to show how bad the rules are the quicker they can fix them.

Awesome how do I do that?

The 'Customer Service' link at the bottom of the main page.

1 hour ago, tunewalker said:

This is the kicker right here. Because you have to resolve them first in first out 2 abilities can not trigger at the exact same time because they can not resolve at the exact same time. GAAAH... any way I will wait for more thoughts all in all I can really see it as either way with this one thank you.

The timing rules for simultaneous triggers are clear - the battlefield controller chooses.

The real question is whether they're simultaneous or not. Three possibilities:

1. Activate, then the roll follows the activation as an effect in the queue. This would make the activation finish first. I don't think this one is likely.

2. Rolling is a sub-piece of the activation. This would cause the roll to finish before the full activation.

3. Activation is treated as one big blob of stuff, all happening simultaneously. This would make the roll trigger and activation triggers go at the same time.

A well defined flow would probably be #2. But Destiny doesn't seem to want well defined flows, and I feel like #3 feels more consistent wih the rules we have. But it's really not defined either way.

Queue

12 hours ago, Buhallin said:

The timing rules for simultaneous triggers are clear - the battlefield controller chooses.

The real question is whether they're simultaneous or not. Three possibilities:

1. Activate, then the roll follows the activation as an effect in the queue. This would make the activation finish first. I don't think this one is likely.

2. Rolling is a sub-piece of the activation. This would cause the roll to finish before the full activation.

3. Activation is treated as one big blob of stuff, all happening simultaneously. This would make the roll trigger and activation triggers go at the same time.

A well defined flow would probably be #2. But Destiny doesn't seem to want well defined flows, and I feel like #3 feels more consistent wih the rules we have. But it's really not defined either way.

I think #3 is write with the RAW and since as you said the order then is decided by the person that owns the battlefield owning the battlefield is even more important.

To clean up some of these timing issue people are trying to create, when you activate, you roll. They are the same thing. This is why "Before" or "After" is used on effects which trigger on activation, so those effects happen before or after the dice are rolled. Yes you do have to declare your intent to activate to trigger the 'Before' effect, but at that point, you are committed to activate/roll.

So Luke activates/rolls, lets assume a shield is showing, 3 triggered effects happen, Luke draws a card, Jango activates, Your Eyes can deceive you. The player who controls the battlefield decides the order in which those happen. If Jango has the battlefield, he can decide to roll after Your Eyes triggers. Otherwise, he may want to burn an action later.

Can we please stop saying how bad the rules are instead of actually reading them.

What good does reading them do when they're either unclear or incomplete? Even the game designers have admitted that the queue needs to be addressed in the next update, and all we have until then is their "intent," for whatever that's worth. I don't feel like your confidence is warranted, considering how many people are posing legitimate (and, frankly, unanswerable) questions.

This situation is handled very well by the rules currently given. If you hate the game and rules so much, why are you even here?

You're the only one saying that the rules are clear; nobody else has come close to a definitive answer. That's not saying much from a guy who previously admitted that "even though I correctly explained how the game was played, there is no way I could do so from the published rules. They are flat out not clear, and yes, a flow chart is needed. I can guarantee you my correct understanding of the game did not come from reading the rules, even though I did sit down for over an hour reading that novel to figure all this out."

In this case, the rules are very clear. The page 13 rule about actions being fully resolved before another action is taken may not be clear to all readers and that needs some work. That work will happen. I understand you are but hurt about making rules up and the game isn't played how you want it to be played. Seriously, at this point, you are just trolling.

Uh huh. Heaven forbid I want them to fix the rules for a game I enjoy playing. Clearly I'm just a troll, one of the unique variety concerned with the long term health of a game he plays. You know, it's funny how often people use that as a cop out when they no longer have anything substantive to add to a conversation, like when they're confronted with their own words.

25 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

What good does reading them do when they're either unclear or incomplete?

Pointless. Hopeless. These words come to my mind. You keep trying to play Magic with Destiny cards and keep trying to force a rule structure from a completely different game onto this one while not even bothering with the actual rules that handles this very situation. You don't get it. Answering questions only leads to more "I don't get it" questions. It is pointless, hopeless. Until you have unlearned what you have learned, you will not get this game, or at the very least, read the rules.

And yes, it needs a flow chart or some form of visual aid for us visual learners.

I use better designed rules as an example for ambiguous scenarios. I find it's better to use something logical than nothing at all. And while you're focused on me, there's a growing number of players around the both of us who obviously don't see whatever it is you're seeing. You can argue with me until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't change all of the obvious confusion going on. I think that's fairly indicative of a bad rule set, but what do I know?

Guys I think the question I asked was answered by both Mep and Buhallin, I missed the part about how simultaneous triggers are handled. The moment that was brought to my attention I was 99.9% sure that activation and rolling the dice were 1 and the same and thus all of those things "triggered" simultaneously thus order resolved was the choice of the person with the battle ground. Which I honestly find a cool way to handle it, its nice that the games structure gives an advantage to the person who controls the battle field since it technically gave the person who DIDNT claim last turn an advantage as well, since they could take as many actions as they wanted after that. Other then that I did not want to bring in arguments about rule clarity as I honestly find the rules to be fairly clear, but as always I am just as prone to miss something as any one else thus the reason why this question was asked. I caught the first in first out rule and wasnt sure if their was an order of operations with character activations. As of right now there looks to be no need for an order of operations for character activations as we can solve the issue with the "simultaneous ability resolution" rule which I missed in the book, a mistake we all make them. Which means rolling a dice and character activation finish at the same time. So thank you Buhallin and Mep for bringing that little missed piece of information to my attention so can we all stop arguing about whether rules are clear or not. The designer of the game is making sure it is easier to read so that their can be less confusion like the one I and others have had through out. Sometimes though its not a matter of clarity as much as it is I just missed that part entirely.

NP, it is a new game with a lot of rules. That is one of those 'fine print' rules that isn't easily remembered. This is going to come up a lot and the whole "the rules sucks, blah blah blah, they don't know how to design a game cause magic rulez, blah, blah, blah, I don't want to read the rules, blah, blah, blah" stuff is just getting old. More important, it is just getting in the way of answering these simple questions.

Boy, for a guy who likes to play the troll card a lot you sure come awfully close yourself. Are you embarrassed that I caught you in a contradiction with your own words? You seem... bitter. Or should I say "blah blah blah, unsubstantive non-response to a question, blah blah blah, cop out."

If there's something getting in the way of meaningful discourse at this point, it's your attitude. I said that I'm invested in the long term health of the game, and to that end I'm still on-topic; what's your excuse for trying to make things personal?

In this case, the rules are very very clear and there is no contradiction.

I'm sure it gives the designers solace that at least one person thinks so.

As others have mentioned.

They are all three simultaneous abilities that the battlefield controller would decide the order of.

To help ppl wrap their head around it I'll point out the fact that Jango gets to decide if he wants to trigger his after ability "after" the player who activates rolls his dice. Jango gets to see the what was rolled, then decide.

If it worked the other way, then I could kind of see your confusion.

Still, good question, nice to see simultaneous abilities with technically different triggers.