I wouldn't expect to see it so varied so often, I agree, but I think we've moved people off some surefire winners and stirred the pot up. A lot of people are tuned into Mindlink now but it's far less clear what the best version is, so you'll see 4 different Mindlink lists not 3 Paratanni and a Fennaroo.

I think we're in a Mindlink/TLT metagame now but how those elements are being brought to the table is at least a bit more varied. It's not a good time to be Imperial, though, that's for sure.

2 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

Agreed, but my feeling is that Hoth may have been an outlier (looking at Naboo and Tatooine)

We're short on big tournaments before worlds, with I think only Regionals in Europe (I don't know their schedule though), and the Stele Open in the US for insight.

I'd guess Stele will contain FAR more mindlink, scum alpha, and a mix of Paul's list /Kanan Biggs.

Maybe I'll be proven wrong and it'll be more diverse, but that's my guess.

Wasn't Hoth the first tournament where the new FAQ was in effect?

11 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

Wasn't Hoth the first tournament where the new FAQ was in effect?

No, the other two previous system opens were as well.

2 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I wouldn't expect to see it so varied so often, I agree, but I think we've moved people off some surefire winners and stirred the pot up. A lot of people are tuned into Mindlink now but it's far less clear what the best version is, so you'll see 4 different Mindlink lists not 3 Paratanni and a Fennaroo.

I think we're in a Mindlink/TLT metagame now but how those elements are being brought to the table is at least a bit more varied. It's not a good time to be Imperial, though, that's for sure.

I'd like to see the next 8-16 lists (I haven't looked to see if they are available yet) from Hoth as well to see how that diversity holds up.

I continue to have my own wonderings about what the faction balance with Imperial competitive lists and what they will look like and whether they will be varied. I was the only Imperial player at an, albeit small (11 players), local tournament last night but that seems to mirror what we see in the top lists at system opens as well.

Imperials got hit hard and the pendulum is swinging. My best guess is that dedicated players will discover that Defenders are still good but Palp Aces as we knew them are going to remain rare. More first order ships in the future. (Upsilon and Tie/SF)

Jumpmasters are still undercosted. None of the nerfs have changed that. They will keep dominating Europe and appearing stateside for the foreseeable.

Rebels and all their flavors of jank are the wildcard.

Imperials are in a rough place. Whenever I open a squad builder I scroll down the list of ships and most of them are either extremely risky or straight up unviable.

/x7 Defenders are still probably your best ship but stress in particular REALLY hurts them so they're a much riskier prospect. The combined weight of ordnance (alpha strikes, bombs, TLT) all chips away in different ways at Imperial ships to the extent that whatever you field is going to have some extremely bad matchups that you'll just have to hope you don't get drawn against.

Maybe something like Pattiswarm has a place again, now? A screen of blockers and some crack shots doesn't feel terrible.

4 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I wouldn't expect to see it so varied so often, I agree, but I think we've moved people off some surefire winners and stirred the pot up. A lot of people are tuned into Mindlink now but it's far less clear what the best version is, so you'll see 4 different Mindlink lists not 3 Paratanni and a Fennaroo.

I think we're in a Mindlink/TLT metagame now but how those elements are being brought to the table is at least a bit more varied. It's not a good time to be Imperial, though, that's for sure.

If tlt becomes too common in the meta again I could see mind linked uboats picking back up even more than they have so far to prey on them.

2 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Imperials are in a rough place. Whenever I open a squad builder I scroll down the list of ships and most of them are either extremely risky or straight up unviable.

/x7 Defenders are still probably your best ship but stress in particular REALLY hurts them so they're a much riskier prospect. The combined weight of ordnance (alpha strikes, bombs, TLT) all chips away in different ways at Imperial ships to the extent that whatever you field is going to have some extremely bad matchups that you'll just have to hope you don't get drawn against.

Maybe something like Pattiswarm has a place again, now? A screen of blockers and some crack shots doesn't feel terrible.

My biggest observation of Imperials lately is that they can win, but man, they have to fly perfect and have decent dice luck. Anything goes wrong, one little thing......BLAM they're instantly wiped off the board. Scum and Rebels just seem to have such better reliability and survivability- thus Imp lists get weeded out of tournaments. Play enough games and you're going to eventually get unlucky.

6 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I think we're in a Mindlink/TLT metagame now but how those elements are being brought to the table is at least a bit more varied. It's not a good time to be Imperial, though, that's for sure.

I don't know if we can say something like that yet. Sure both Mindlink and TLT lists are doing great but 3 mindlinked Jumps are hard to label as "Mindlink metagame" and TLT lists are very differents.

Miranda's 3 ships lists are doing well for a while, even before the FAQ, but while there are different flavour of it (bombing miranda, miranda + 2 Y and others) the archetype is a anther story than the other TLT list of the meta: Kanan Biggs.

A "true" mindlink list, like the Paratanni was is still missing. Maybe the Pocknell will fill this gap, I'm with you in thinking that there's definitely room for something like that.

Imperials still need a bit of time, but there are more and more Quickdraw builds around, and they seem very good.

Right now I think the most evolving and creative meta in Europe is the Polish one, I can't wait to see what they'll end up playing

I'm not sure what's not a 'true' Mindlink list about the three jumps - there's only three torpedoes in there and the list is primarily powered by Mindlink into R4 Agromech while still having actions free for Barrel Rolls.

I wonder how much the issue with imperials is effected by the need for a change in Imperial player's mindset. It's been Palp and x7 for such a long time, I can see it being difficult to adapt. Given a few months though, i think things will sort themselves out and some mix of old and new will take place of the "Palp or x7 all day every day" mantra they had to live by before.

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I'm not sure what's not a 'true' Mindlink list about the three jumps - there's only three torpedoes in there and the list is primarily powered by Mindlink into R4 Agromech while still having actions free for Barrel Rolls.

Up to 5 torpedoes depending on the build.

2 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I'm not sure what's not a 'true' Mindlink list about the three jumps - there's only three torpedoes in there and the list is primarily powered by Mindlink into R4 Agromech while still having actions free for Barrel Rolls.

It might just be my own vision of the game, but I feel like attani jumps are way different than the previous iteration of Attanni list. Of course you have action economy (Attanni just do that), but we are back, in a way more healthy than the previous, to the ordnance game.

The Double Jump + Fenn Rau list is something in the middle thought.

1 hour ago, Kdubb said:

I wonder how much the issue with imperials is effected by the need for a change in Imperial player's mindset. It's been Palp and x7 for such a long time, I can see it being difficult to adapt. Given a few months though, i think things will sort themselves out and some mix of old and new will take place of the "Palp or x7 all day every day" mantra they had to live by before.

This is definitly part of the issue. I've made some of my hardcore imperial mates trying out the joustier lists with Vessery/D and Quickdraw, and their response has been that the list is very strong, but that they didn't fly it as its potential because they were used to another kind of mindset

17 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

This is definitly part of the issue. I've made some of my hardcore imperial mates trying out the joustier lists with Vessery/D and Quickdraw, and their response has been that the list is very strong, but that they didn't fly it as its potential because they were used to another kind of mindset

I've found alternate Imperial lists to be strong but also inconsistent and very dependent on matchup and dice. Jousting with Vess /D and Quickdraw can virtually wipe a list or get entirely demolished depending on how many blanks you roll. The purpose of Palp and /x7 was always to smooth out those spikes, your highs aren't as high but your lows aren't as low either. Playing without them leaves you with a list that either dances circles around things rolling 3 natural evades at every opportunity or crashes and burns within a few turns. They're fun to play but I'm not sure they're consistent enough to be a common presence on the top tables.

Though I also agree that we're likely to see new Imperial lists filling that gap over time. Whether that's existing cards like Hux smoothing things out with loads of free focus and auto damage or future inclusions like the upcoming Imperial TLT platform giving them a consistent damage source. But as it stands the autothruster capable Imps are too fragile when facing Sabine and the non-autothruster ones get ripped to pieces by TLTs.

2 hours ago, Kdubb said:

I wonder how much the issue with imperials is effected by the need for a change in Imperial player's mindset. It's been Palp and x7 for such a long time, I can see it being difficult to adapt. Given a few months though, i think things will sort themselves out and some mix of old and new will take place of the "Palp or x7 all day every day" mantra they had to live by before.

I think that it's just simple math that the imperials just don't have as many cards to fall back on as the other factions, and I think that's the bigger factor in their slow "recovery" from the FAQ (along with what Makaze points out above, which I think illustrates the crux of an imperial list right now).

Scum lists have already fallen back on other cards (as the Jumpmaster has multiple times now) and we've already seen variations of their strong lists that were nerfed make top cuts at system opens with slightly different cards (or even the same ones in the case of Manaroo, Fenn, Teroch). I don't think this is because Scum players are somehow more creative or because Imperial players were stuck in a mindset -- it's simply the number of options that are available.

This isn't to say that I think Imperials are out of competition (as I've said before), and I think players will still work hard and are to find new builds that like the play style of that faction, but I'd be willing to bet that both rebels and scum continue to have more representation and diversity for the foreseeable future.

36 minutes ago, Makaze said:

Though I also agree that we're likely to see new Imperial lists filling that gap over time. Whether that's existing cards like Hux smoothing things out with loads of free focus and auto damage or future inclusions like the upcoming Imperial TLT platform giving them a consistent damage source. But as it stands the autothruster capable Imps are too fragile when facing Sabine and the non-autothruster ones get ripped to pieces by TLTs.

I think Imps would be in a fine place if Sabine and Miranda got the Emperor FAQ treatment. Those two items alone completely make Imps Aces non-viable.

13 hours ago, Comely said:

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=2723

edit: looks like just the top 8 lists and a smattering of other lists are in there right now.

I'm in at 47th with my Briarpatch list.

I think there's no need to Errata Sabine but Adv Slam. Use it as a PTL, so after the Slam this ship can execute another native actions.

No more slammed bombs

7 minutes ago, Cerve said:

I think there's no need to Errata Sabine but Adv Slam. Use it as a PTL, so after the Slam this ship can execute another native actions.

No more slammed bombs

That would kill the K-wing other than Miranda. I think something like PTL does have merits though. What if Advanced Slam gave you a stress token if used to drop a bomb? It would make back to back bombing runs much more difficult and also leave the bomber vulnerable the next turn.

5 hours ago, Makaze said:

I've found alternate Imperial lists to be strong but also inconsistent and very dependent on matchup and dice. Jousting with Vess /D and Quickdraw can virtually wipe a list or get entirely demolished depending on how many blanks you roll. The purpose of Palp and /x7 was always to smooth out those spikes, your highs aren't as high but your lows aren't as low either. Playing without them leaves you with a list that either dances circles around things rolling 3 natural evades at every opportunity or crashes and burns within a few turns. They're fun to play but I'm not sure they're consistent enough to be a common presence on the top tables.

Though I also agree that we're likely to see new Imperial lists filling that gap over time. Whether that's existing cards like Hux smoothing things out with loads of free focus and auto damage or future inclusions like the upcoming Imperial TLT platform giving them a consistent damage source. But as it stands the autothruster capable Imps are too fragile when facing Sabine and the non-autothruster ones get ripped to pieces by TLTs.

"The purpose of Palp and /x7 was always to smooth out those spikes, your highs aren't as high but your lows aren't as low either."

Palp and X7 certainly raised the lows and the floor. But, how in the hell did Palp or X7 lower the highs? Neither did anything to flatten the variance spikes in your own favor, all they did was remove some variance when the variance was out of your favor. If anything X7 RAISED the highs for the defender. They could now evade a 4 attack shot where before that wasn't possible. I can't see anyway that Palp or X7 did anything at all to LOWER anything. Your statement should read "The purpose of Palp and X7 was always to remove bad variance, your highs are higher and your lows are also higher."

1 hour ago, Rinehart said:

Palp and X7 certainly raised the lows and the floor. But, how in the hell did Palp or X7 lower the highs? Neither did anything to flatten the variance spikes in your own favor, all they did was remove some variance when the variance was out of your favor. If anything X7 RAISED the highs for the defender. They could now evade a 4 attack shot where before that wasn't possible. I can't see anyway that Palp or X7 did anything at all to LOWER anything. Your statement should read "The purpose of Palp and X7 was always to remove bad variance, your highs are higher and your lows are also higher."

Because Palp meant taking a shuttle. While the shuttle does have 3 red dice they don't tend to be heavily modified and often aren't on the target you'd prefer if they're on target at all. Plus it only has 1 green dice but 10 total hit points so it was guaranteed to soak up some damage and couldn't get evaporated by a single bad roll. Contrast that to most of the replacement lists being seen which are, turn on turn, throwing more total both red and green dice. But have much less control over what those dice end up being and less hp to soak up the now increased variance.

As far as /x7 I'm assuming if you're not taking it then you're taking /D. It has a larger potential upside in that it can ion/tractor someone, often strips tokens with the dual shots, and thus has a better chance at a PS kill or getting an early snowball rolling. But also a larger potential downside as it no longer has the free evade and so is also more susceptible to being PS killed or dropping fast in return.

Both alternatives provide larger potential upsides, if you roll well, by simply throwing more total dice ie. their high spikes can be higher. But have little in the way of guaranteed damage mitigation providing a floor and so if you don't roll well their low troughs are lower.

4 hours ago, MenaceNsobriety said:

That would kill the K-wing other than Miranda. I think something like PTL does have merits though. What if Advanced Slam gave you a stress token if used to drop a bomb? It would make back to back bombing runs much more difficult and also leave the bomber vulnerable the next turn.

Making ASLAM give a stress token would do wonders to make the K wing more palatable to fly against.

15 hours ago, Kdubb said:

I wonder how much the issue with imperials is effected by the need for a change in Imperial player's mindset. It's been Palp and x7 for such a long time, I can see it being difficult to adapt. Given a few months though, i think things will sort themselves out and some mix of old and new will take place of the "Palp or x7 all day every day" mantra they had to live by before.

I feel it's a little of this, but also the fact that the imperials have so many agile, and fragile, aces. Green dice fail, so if you fly a fragile ace, you either need to limit downside variance, or get a LOT of offense in a small window to justify bringing it (which usually accounts for 30-40% of your squad). I think that's why we might see some pretty limited imperial lists until they get their turret.

8 hours ago, Cerve said:

I think there's no need to Errata Sabine but Adv Slam. Use it as a PTL, so after the Slam this ship can execute another native actions.

No more slammed bombs

I was actually thinking the same thing. I feel that it's not so much that Sabine is overpowered, per se, but that when combine with the SLAM action, it makes mines literally undodgeable (and if anyone's sen the flower blossom of a SLAMming k-wing, then it's obvious that your opponent can't be anywhere within almost 180 degrees in front of the K-wing, even as far as range 3, without being threatened by an unblockable, 2-damage mine that also disables the ship).

Perhaps this would help balance that aspect, and allow people to actually have a chance to dodge a mine, rather than having the illusion of choice?

10 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I feel that it's not so much that Sabine is overpowered, per se

Oh it's definitely that, too, though. Godde forbid anyone spend 30+ points on a 3 health ship just to watch it get blown up 25% of the time by a 2-point Crew and 1/3 of her 4-point bomb... That's literally a 1000% ROI.

Just now, ObiWonka said:

Oh it's definitely that, too, though. Godde forbid anyone spend 30+ points on a 3 health ship just to watch it get blown up 25% of the time by a 2-point Crew and 1/3 of her 4-point bomb... That's literally a 1000% ROI.

Well, I'm just saying that partially, the only ship that can guarantee to hit you with a mine, 100% of the time, is a k-wing.

If you gave the exact same crew to scum and imperials, would we see bombing lists that are anywhere as good as k-wing bomb lists?

All of that said, perhaps sabine alone is still too good, but I as an ace flyer, I've done much better dodging y-wing bombers (specifically miranda + 2Y) than k-wings, because you actually CAN'T avoid k-wings.

Just now, Tlfj200 said:

Well, I'm just saying that partially, the only ship that can guarantee to hit you with a mine, 100% of the time, is a k-wing.

If you gave the exact same crew to scum and imperials, would we see bombing lists that are anywhere as good as k-wing bomb lists?

All of that said, perhaps sabine alone is still too good, but I as an ace flyer, I've done much better dodging y-wing bombers (specifically miranda + 2Y) than k-wings, because you actually CAN'T avoid k-wings.

We really wouldn't. Imps might get a bit better, Emon would get a bit better, but they'd still not be GOOD.

I wouldn't care about Sabine anywhere near as much if K Wings weren't a thing.

K Wings are terrible.