2 hours ago, Cerve said:

If bombs becomes a real thing, Coordinate can mitigate the damage. Doing a Barrel Roll before maneuver will be yourself able to dodge any vertical cluster in front of you.

Yes, K wing still able to drop mines ON you, but still an help.

Adv sensor/Cloaking will helps too as well

Yeah they will still be able to drop it on you. Adv/Cloaking ships are also 4 hit point ships, so it takes 2 bombs, or just one well placed Cluster mine.

4 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:

Man, I flew Galaxy Note at a team event last year. My second time ever flying it, against a nationally ranked player flying Parattani for I think his first or second time ever. I absolutely *ate* his list. I'm not saying the K + Sabine is OP, but it is a cakewalk next to triple Aces (for instance). There are other ships/combos I hate more, but surely do feel a sinking feeling every time I see that list.

Galaxy note 7 is a completely different list than the winner. It has the ability to spike a whole bunch of damage through piles and piles of Cluster Mines. And it's awesome that you did so well with it with such little practice, but that list isn't winning all the things. Sable has done really well with it but it's not everywhere nor strong against everything. Miranda is another thing entirely. A 50+ point ship with 1 agility and 9 health is not that easy to get the value out of. Yes, she regenerates but she only does it when she is shooting which means she is many times able to be damaged as well. She's great, but she takes work to make...well...work. I just think the knee jerk reaction to cry OP is silly.

3 hours ago, AdmiralThrawn said:

Funny thing is, a great example of bombs being viable on other platforms is Nathan's build with the seismic and sabine on ashoka. That's 4 gurenteed damage a game at a high ps with scavenger crane. For 4 points as well.

When you say "4 damages guarantee", it's if you're able to use the scavanger crane one time or I'm missing something?

12 hours ago, Rinehart said:

Yes, his Boba Proton boat was the same as my Boba proton boat, one torpedo only.

1. This was me, and yes my boba/proton boat only had 1 torpedo.

2. My list was:
Bump: CS; Mindlink; R4 Agro; Intel; Feedback; Anti Pursuit.

Plasma: CS; Mindlink; R4 Agro; Intel; EM; Plasma; Chips.

Boba: CS; Mindlink; R4 Agro; Boba; Proton; Chips.

3. I choose to not put EM on my Boba boat as that would have made him 35 points and a more obvious target number 1. I wanted to introduce some target uncertainty so I made the plasma boat the most expensive.

4. Pre Hoth I had a lot of indecision on exactly what variant to take. Fenn and 2 boats, or 3 torp boats (took this to Denver), or bump and 2 torp boats. I debated this a long time and want to give a shout out to the local crew for helping with the debate. (specifically slowdive) Ultimately I nixed Fenn because he can be squishy against munitions and particularly bombs. I flew 3 torp boats at Denver and found I RARELY got off more than 3 torps and most of my damage was done through forced bumps and r4 agro supported primary shots. I went with the bump on the advise of slowdive as it would be a good closer ship for me against aces, and was a good focus ship/lead ship. The bump was definitely the right choice for the meta I saw at Hoth.

5. I also want to give a shout out to Rinehart. The game was played was a blast! I do feel a little bad for you though on how your dice were there at the end. His last round of combat was: Fenn at 2 hull against a 2 hull Bumpmaster, and a nearly full plasma boat (munitions gone) After Fenn's maneuver he was at R3 of the plasma boat, and r2 of the bump boat. I agree with his decision to boost into r1 of the bump master. He then rolls 5 dice against the bump and gets 1 crit, the crit makes it through but is not anything substancial, then plasma gets 2 hits (help from R4 agro) against 0 evades leading to 1 damage getting through (autothrusters), finally the game ending with the bumpmaster feedbacking Fenn for the kill. Definitely a tough break for him but a super fun game against a great opponent.

6. I am kind of looking forward to Team Covenant posting my top 8 match against Nathan. I do think I made a fair number of mistakes in this game that I wish I could take back, but overall I was happy with how I performed. There were a few breaks that just didn't go my way, and those things can happen. Could I have avoided situations where I needed those breaks... of course, but alas I didn't. If I had to play the game again I would definitely feel confident about my chances. Nathan was definitely a great opponent and I look forward to getting some revenge in a future match!

7. Overall, Hoth was a great experience for me. I can't wait to go back next year.

Biggs just needs to have his ability limited to only working if he is the same range from the attacker as the intended target... easy fix

5 hours ago, PoorGreedo said:

When you say "4 damages guarantee", it's if you're able to use the scavanger crane one time or I'm missing something?

Yes, assuming the card works at least once that's 2 seismic damages and 2 sabine damages. Could be more if the crane stays.

1 hour ago, Lobokai said:

Biggs just needs to have his ability limited to only working if he is the same range from the attacker as the intended target... easy fix

So we can finally get rid of the very last namesake of this game that's ever taken.

No more X-wings in X-wing!!!

11 hours ago, SabineKey said:

This is actually an interesting point. The only other bomber I can think of who seems alright is Deathfire, who can Barrel Roll then drop a bomb. I wander if more bombers would be viable if they could reposition, then drop?

Deathrain could be if making him able to do so didn't COST so frigging much. Boost and bomb from front or back using EI, then barrel roll, then stress.

But the minimum cost for that is 29 points not including the cost of the bomb (so realistically at least 35 points) and he folds like a wet dish towel.

I so want Deathrain to be good, he's so FUN.

6 hours ago, brownj23 said:

1. This was me, and yes my boba/proton boat only had 1 torpedo.

2. My list was:
Bump: CS; Mindlink; R4 Agro; Intel; Feedback; Anti Pursuit.

Plasma: CS; Mindlink; R4 Agro; Intel; EM; Plasma; Chips.

Boba: CS; Mindlink; R4 Agro; Boba; Proton; Chips.

3. I choose to not put EM on my Boba boat as that would have made him 35 points and a more obvious target number 1. I wanted to introduce some target uncertainty so I made the plasma boat the most expensive.

4. Pre Hoth I had a lot of indecision on exactly what variant to take. Fenn and 2 boats, or 3 torp boats (took this to Denver), or bump and 2 torp boats. I debated this a long time and want to give a shout out to the local crew for helping with the debate. (specifically slowdive) Ultimately I nixed Fenn because he can be squishy against munitions and particularly bombs. I flew 3 torp boats at Denver and found I RARELY got off more than 3 torps and most of my damage was done through forced bumps and r4 agro supported primary shots. I went with the bump on the advise of slowdive as it would be a good closer ship for me against aces, and was a good focus ship/lead ship. The bump was definitely the right choice for the meta I saw at Hoth.

5. I also want to give a shout out to Rinehart. The game was played was a blast! I do feel a little bad for you though on how your dice were there at the end. His last round of combat was: Fenn at 2 hull against a 2 hull Bumpmaster, and a nearly full plasma boat (munitions gone) After Fenn's maneuver he was at R3 of the plasma boat, and r2 of the bump boat. I agree with his decision to boost into r1 of the bump master. He then rolls 5 dice against the bump and gets 1 crit, the crit makes it through but is not anything substancial, then plasma gets 2 hits (help from R4 agro) against 0 evades leading to 1 damage getting through (autothrusters), finally the game ending with the bumpmaster feedbacking Fenn for the kill. Definitely a tough break for him but a super fun game against a great opponent.

6. I am kind of looking forward to Team Covenant posting my top 8 match against Nathan. I do think I made a fair number of mistakes in this game that I wish I could take back, but overall I was happy with how I performed. There were a few breaks that just didn't go my way, and those things can happen. Could I have avoided situations where I needed those breaks... of course, but alas I didn't. If I had to play the game again I would definitely feel confident about my chances. Nathan was definitely a great opponent and I look forward to getting some revenge in a future match!

7. Overall, Hoth was a great experience for me. I can't wait to go back next year.

Thanks for the write up! I myself am also playing triple scouts at the moment, so always interested in other variants.

2 hours ago, Sekac said:

So we can finally get rid of the very last namesake of this game that's ever taken.

No more X-wings in X-wing!!!

No, so we can finally bring Biggs to an acceptable level that opens the door to a squad title or the like for all XWings.

11 hours ago, ajcravens said:

Miranda is awesome, K-wings are amazing bombers and Sabine is a great crew. Those are all true. What is also true is that Miranda and Bombing is a skill that takes a lot of practice. That ship has one agility and will burn down so fast if she is not flown correctly. Sabine is super helpful for bombs but she's not overpowered. When you break it down, in most Miranda bomb lists she is a maximum of 4 damage added. That's powerful, but it's not overpowered. I think everyone who thinks this list/ship is overpowered should just try it out and see if it's as OP as they think....she takes a lot of finesse.

Sabine is not OP, but she's way too strong for her cost. The problem is the ability to hit a ship at R1 of the template, and working across the table, which increases the danger zone of mines to a ridiculous area and does not allow the enemy to spread the bomb damage in any way (you will always hit the barely alive ace, even if he manages to avoid the bomb).

12 minutes ago, costi said:

Sabine is not OP, but she's way too strong for her cost. The problem is the ability to hit a ship at R1 of the template, and working across the table, which increases the danger zone of mines to a ridiculous area and does not allow the enemy to spread the bomb damage in any way (you will always hit the barely alive ace, even if he manages to avoid the bomb).

Way too strong for its cost is pretty much the definition of OP

IMHO this is the definition of "undercosted" OP would be "super-powerful no matter the cost".

1 hour ago, costi said:

Sabine is not OP, but she's way too strong for her cost. The problem is the ability to hit a ship at R1 of the template, and working across the table, which increases the danger zone of mines to a ridiculous area and does not allow the enemy to spread the bomb damage in any way (you will always hit the barely alive ace, even if he manages to avoid the bomb).

You can only hit that barely alive ace with Sabine if you stay in R1 of the bombs. In a triple K list, why not go for the Sabine K first, and on Miranda, if she's staying out of harm's way, so is the bomb. I find it great how much hate bombs get now that they're decent, and they're far from OP, even when supported by Sabine. You just have to remember they are on board, and change how you play the game. I suggest engaging in the rocks, which might seem advantageous to the Ks at first, but in reality, it makes it much more difficult to slam into the proper position. I've actually considered replacing AdvSL with EI on Miranda for that reason. That way you can slam onto a rock (or bump) and trigger EI to drop the bomb.

3 minutes ago, Khyros said:

You can only hit that barely alive ace with Sabine if you stay in R1 of the bombs. In a triple K list, why not go for the Sabine K first, and on Miranda, if she's staying out of harm's way, so is the bomb. I find it great how much hate bombs get now that they're decent, and they're far from OP, even when supported by Sabine. You just have to remember they are on board, and change how you play the game. I suggest engaging in the rocks, which might seem advantageous to the Ks at first, but in reality, it makes it much more difficult to slam into the proper position. I've actually considered replacing AdvSL with EI on Miranda for that reason. That way you can slam onto a rock (or bump) and trigger EI to drop the bomb.

WHy not go for the Sabine one first? Because a sensible player won't let you, that one will be right at the back to start off with and you'll be screened from getting to it by the other two.

As for staying within range 1 of them bombs, it's impossible not to when they're dropping action bombs on you or your allies who are near you, before you've moved.

59 minutes ago, costi said:

IMHO this is the definition of "undercosted" OP would be "super-powerful no matter the cost".

I have to disagree with undercosted on Sabine. She's 2 points. I would say in general an extra damage costs 1 squad point (Best example: Crack Shot or even fixed zuckuss is roughly a crack shot with a chance to happen again maybe). When you jump up to 2 points you get repeatable powerful effects (Lone Wolf, Weapons Guidance, Latts Razzi, Rey Crew, Tactician, R3A2). These are powerful game effects that trigger often but have stipulations usually. Sabine is the same way. She can cause damage which is awesome but she doesn't change the range of Reveal bombs and as far as action bombs she can extend their range to 1 but that just makes an ace fly safer. With K-wings on the board you can't place aces in spots where they can get tagged by splash.

I think the biggest thing here though is that bombs ARE the ace counter. If you can't shoot them down, bomb them. There are plenty of lists that wreck bombers (scouts, Ketsu Bossk, other munitions lists, most large base ships in general are at least more difficult). There will always be counters to ships and lists, and it will always suck to go against them but that's part of the balance of the game. Sabine will do a maximum of 4 damage all game with a standard Miranda and that feels right to me for 2 points. Yeah it gets rough when you load up 3 bombers with clusters and can trigger Sabine many many times but that list is also a bit of a 1 trick pony.

TLDR: 2 points for Sabine feels about right, look at the other 2 point upgrades that's where the really powerful upgrades start to show up.

Crack Shot and Zuckuss are terrible examples; Crack is single use and Zuckuss has a huge cost.

Fearlessness would be the better comparison, and that's not even a good comparison because it's not free damage, it's a free hit result, so it can still be dodged.

There isn't really a comparison for Ketsu's 'even if I'm in opposite corners of the board, do a free point of damage to a ship of my choice at range one of an effect I have very strong control over'.

The thing you're ignoring is that she has unlimited range, and that she does DAMAGE, not just hits. Crack is perhaps a good comparison - so, what does Crack Shot cost when it doesn't get discarded? 4 or 5 points at a guess, but I'm not convinced you could make it balanced at all.

9 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

The thing you're ignoring is that she has unlimited range, and that she does DAMAGE, not just hits. Crack is perhaps a good comparison - so, what does Crack Shot cost when it doesn't get discarded? 4 or 5 points at a guess, but I'm not convinced you could make it balanced at all.

Well Juke is 2 points for a repeatable Crack shot...it's not exactly crack but it's close. It is exactly Crack on Omega leader however. And that's what Sabine is. She's good on everything but especially K-wings that can take special advantage of her. And I also think her ability is fluffy so I really like it. Sabine would rig the bombs to do extra damage and target specific ships. That feels just about right.

Juke isn't a repeatable Crack Shot on anyone except OL. You can fix Juke if you have the tokens/mods to do it. It also has the significant cost of having to have an evade token, which usually conflicts with getting offensive mods.

And it STILL isn't doing autodamage. Neither's Crack. If they roll nothing or if they roll over what they need, neither does anything.

But this is probably off topic for this thread...

16 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Juke isn't a repeatable Crack Shot on anyone except OL. You can fix Juke if you have the tokens/mods to do it. It also has the significant cost of having to have an evade token, which usually conflicts with getting offensive mods.

And it STILL isn't doing autodamage. Neither's Crack. If they roll nothing or if they roll over what they need, neither does anything.

But this is probably off topic for this thread...

I think "free" damage is more like 3 points, and isn't "free." We have Vader and R5P9 as much more appropriately costed cards. Sabine at two points is significantly better than either of those. It's also worth noting that extra attack dice effects are often worth 4 points or more and often come with a drawback. That's such a cost that you don't see them much at all.

Thinking about it in terms of appropriate costing, the best comparison to Sabine is probably Ruthlessness.

It has the same effect, but a much greater range restriction, more difficult trigger, only works on the ship it's on, AND can't target the ship that set it off (i.e. you can't hit and deal the Ruthlessness damage to the same ship). AND it can hit your own ships if you're not careful. It's FOUR points to Sabine's two.

I want to focus that Sabine doesn't cost 2 points. She actually cost 2+anybombcost. 'Cause alone is useless.

1 minute ago, Cerve said:

I want to focus that Sabine doesn't cost 2 points. She actually cost 2+anybombcost. 'Cause alone is useless.

Yup. But then, she gives you the slot to take that bomb. And the bomb is useful on its own even if the ship with Sabine on dies.

Just now, Cerve said:

I want to focus that Sabine doesn't cost 2 points. She actually cost 2+anybombcost. 'Cause alone is useless.

Then you have to include the effect of the bomb in any calculation. Sabine herself is only doing 1 damage at a time and only costs 2 points. If you want to say she costs 4 then you have to include the 2nd damage from the seismic and 2 auto damage for 4 with no drawback makes her look all the more undercosted.

Also, free bomb slot which is typically worth a point by itself if you look at other cards that grant slots

I think we've learned enough by now to know that any effect without a range restriction is potentially problematic. If Sabine was Range 1-2 she'd largely still work as intended (you'll almost always be range 1-2 of a bomb you dropped) but would be tuned down somewhat. I think she'd still see play at that point.