2 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:

When they introduce ships that I never saw in a movie with characters I don't care about and they can beat the best pilots in the galaxy because FFG wants you to buy their expansion, it doesn't resonate well with me.

The only pilot described as the best is Anakin Skywalker. One could even argue whether he lost some of that when he got the suit probably. No one else has been said the be "the best in the galaxy". nust because they're in the movies doesn't mean there aren't or can't be better pilots out there

8 hours ago, DagobahDave said:

You typed a lot of unnecessary static, but this one was actually a good question.

The problem is that the standard 100-point tournament match format is the same format most new players expect when they show up at an X-Wing game night for the first time. All of the problems of high level competitive gameplay (the proliferation of netlist clones, overuse of turrets, excessive dice control, obvious power creep, etc.) are present in casual store play.

For someone just trying to get their head around the core set and a couple of B-Wings, it's entirely possible to encounter Emperor Palpatine your first time out and realize that your idea of what a good squad might be is completely defeated by abilities and flight patterns that aren't even hinted at in the first few waves of the game. That's a problem from a new player's perspective, and for tournament organizers trying to bring in and retain players.

The very game format FFG hopes I'm going to sell new players on has become an exercise in frustration too often. Something really needs to change or tournament play is going to lose its appeal to all but an elite few who don't think anything's missing from the game. ("Look, Biggs is there. There's an X-Wing, so what are you complaining about?")

Spot on.

X-Wing has jumped the shark and we are trying to make that clear so we can have Bobby wake up from his dream in the shower before the series gets canned.

8 hours ago, DagobahDave said:

You typed a lot of unnecessary static, but this one was actually a good question.

The problem is that the standard 100-point tournament match format is the same format most new players expect when they show up at an X-Wing game night for the first time. All of the problems of high level competitive gameplay (the proliferation of netlist clones, overuse of turrets, excessive dice control, obvious power creep, etc.) are present in casual store play.

For someone just trying to get their head around the core set and a couple of B-Wings, it's entirely possible to encounter Emperor Palpatine your first time out and realize that your idea of what a good squad might be is completely defeated by abilities and flight patterns that aren't even hinted at in the first few waves of the game. That's a problem from a new player's perspective, and for tournament organizers trying to bring in and retain players.

The very game format FFG hopes I'm going to sell new players on has become an exercise in frustration too often. Something really needs to change or tournament play is going to lose its appeal to all but an elite few who don't think anything's missing from the game. ("Look, Biggs is there. There's an X-Wing, so what are you complaining about?")

I would love to see the X-wing be a good ship, but I also think people have a massively rose-tinted notion of what the early wave gameplay was. It was simpler, yes, but in many ways also more dull- ships had far fewer viable customization options. Most upgrades were overpriced, ships could be easily defined by their mathematical values and had one or two things they did.

I mean, I, too, would like to see pure jousters in a better place, but the notion that we should go back to the wave 1-3 meta or that we should ban every decent upgrade card in the hope of going back to that would make X-wing a much much more boring game to me.

It does suck as a new player going in and then getting kicked in the nuts by say a palp aces/defenders list where you really don't have much of a chance if you make any non-optimal decisions. I always described it as an inevitable sinking feeling- I used to run a list with 5 Z-95s and a YV-666 that was specced to wreck aces(bossk/gunner/tactician) and if the YV died before one of the palp aces died, that was pretty much game. You could play all you want, but unless the palp ace player made a huge error, he was going to shrug off all my 2-die attacks. But that being said, the point of being a PS9 ace or a PS9 fat turret is that you duck and weave all the shots coming at you. You pay points for that privilege. I killed so many turrets with that list because I trapped them by bumping. It was a lot of fun because that was the height of the turret meta, and I blew it up all the time, but it would be a far less interesting game to me if every list worked on the principle of BBBBZ or the howlrunner swarm.

I also think this perspective tends to denigrate the advances made in X-wing's design from wave 4 onward, from actually decent ordnance carriers to turret slot weapons that are actually appealing in and of themselves to turrets that care a lot more about their arcs, aces that like to get in people's faces. Yes, it has made the game more upgrade heavy in response, but it's an added facet to the game and has added in more playstyles than it's removed.

16 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Brobots in wave 6 and dengaroo now aren't really valid comparisons. Brobots have always been GOOD but nowhere near broken. Taking dengar against a casual squad is more like taking whisper back before the declaim chang, or even palp aces before imp veterans pretty much dropped soon tie from the meta.

I compared them in the 'best Scum squad then' vs. 'best Scum squad now' sense.

One of the problems with the game design and power creep is precisely that previous waves get left in the dust for the new hotness.

Better game design would see the power increase scale along with older waves so that say a core set X wing is on par with a defender as the game progresses.

There are loads of mechanics available for this especially things like titles that instantly resurrected the aforementioned defenders.

I'm not a professional game designer, but I've been playing games for about 35 years so I do know something about which I'm writing.

I think the game is in a really good place right now outside of a few corner case combos that may be slightly overpowered. I do not want to see the game go back to fly straight, shoot, K-turn repeat. Most of the criticism I have seen is that the older more recognizable ships are below the power curve but I am pretty sure the Devs know that as well. I trust that they will fix it in the near future. We just need to be a little patient and give them time to work. Not everything can be instantly fixed just because we want it to be.

What I don't like is the removal of hard choices with "action economy" which is really just action freebies, so that older ships don't get a chance for action freebies and the new ships (or rebooted ships) crush them.

8 hours ago, Panzeh said:

I would love to see the X-wing be a good ship, but I also think people have a massively rose-tinted notion of what the early wave gameplay was. It was simpler, yes, but in many ways also more dull- ships had far fewer viable customization options. Most upgrades were overpriced, ships could be easily defined by their mathematical values and had one or two things they did.

I mean, I, too, would like to see pure jousters in a better place, but the notion that we should go back to the wave 1-3 meta or that we should ban every decent upgrade card in the hope of going back to that would make X-wing a much much more boring game to me...

I also think this perspective tends to denigrate the advances made in X-wing's design from wave 4 onward, from actually decent ordnance carriers to turret slot weapons that are actually appealing in and of themselves to turrets that care a lot more about their arcs, aces that like to get in people's faces. Yes, it has made the game more upgrade heavy in response, but it's an added facet to the game and has added in more playstyles than it's removed.

I won't say that the sky is falling, but something has to change, because the gulf between the starter game experience and what we see in tournaments is too vast. I'm only nostalgic for a time when ship positioning and facing were very important for competitive squads and an expected feature of gameplay. We've lost much of that in the turret meta, and tournament matches rarely look or feel like what I'd call a dogfight.

I certainly don't suggest banning every single decent upgrade. I suggest seasonal ban lists or other card limits, or a change in scenario or mission objectives, the assumption being that these would be nuanced and themed, intended to create competitive environments for as many ships as possible on a rotating basis.

As a new player to X-Wing, and as a long time fan of various video games and books from the Star Wars Expanded Universe, here's how I see the state that this game is in:

If the T-65 X-Wing is at the bottom of the meta, there is something wrong in terms of balancing here. The X-Wing is the standard fighter craft of the Rebellion for a reason, and it is for the same reason that it was used well past the days of the Galactic Civil War in Legends: it's very upgradable and very capable in the hands of a good pilot. It shouldn't exactly blow out all other competition, but it should at least be competent.

From what I've seen, there hasn't been anything done to keep the ships from the first expansions as viable options compared to the new ships. Shouldn't piloting and positioning be the focus of this game? Wasn't it that way when it began? Correct me if I'm mistaken, but shouldn't I be able to use a squadron of X-Wings in a competitive environment and pull out on top if I know how to fly my ships more effectively than my enemy's? Why is a jack of all trades like the T-65 seen as all but useless in the current state the game is in now?

I wholeheartedly agree with DagobahDave's comment, seasonal ban lists and card limits would be a great start to bringing ships like the X-Wing back into the fold. In my personal opinion, I think a better idea would be a suggestion I've seen tossed around a little bit, that being a suggested required percentage of a player's forces consisting of low-level ships. For example, there could be rules that make a requirement that a percentage of a player's forces would have to consist of ships like X-Wings or Ties, making the grunt ships a necessity in combat. Mechanically this ensures that jack of all trades ships like the X-Wing have a role, and thematically it makes sense that X-Wings and Ties would make up a larger portion of either faction's forces than A-Wings or Tie Bombers.

It seems to me that simply playing around with the Squad Point system already in place in the game would be the key to balancing the early wave ships. I mean, isn't the Squad Point system there to begin with as a way to balance players' forces? Why not go the extra mile and come up with some creative requirements and limits of fleet compositions based on classes of ships? Then FFG can be as crazy as they want with the ships they put out, and the point system would adapt to keep everything balanced. Seems to me like the point system was built the way it was for a reason, why not capitalize on it?

11 hours ago, Panzeh said:

I would love to see the X-wing be a good ship, but I also think people have a massively rose-tinted notion of what the early wave gameplay was. It was simpler, yes, but in many ways also more dull- ships had far fewer viable customization options. Most upgrades were overpriced, ships could be easily defined by their mathematical values and had one or two things they did.

I mean, I, too, would like to see pure jousters in a better place, but the notion that we should go back to the wave 1-3 meta or that we should ban every decent upgrade card in the hope of going back to that would make X-wing a much much more boring game to me.

It does suck as a new player going in and then getting kicked in the nuts by say a palp aces/defenders list where you really don't have much of a chance if you make any non-optimal decisions. I always described it as an inevitable sinking feeling- I used to run a list with 5 Z-95s and a YV-666 that was specced to wreck aces(bossk/gunner/tactician) and if the YV died before one of the palp aces died, that was pretty much game. You could play all you want, but unless the palp ace player made a huge error, he was going to shrug off all my 2-die attacks. But that being said, the point of being a PS9 ace or a PS9 fat turret is that you duck and weave all the shots coming at you. You pay points for that privilege. I killed so many turrets with that list because I trapped them by bumping. It was a lot of fun because that was the height of the turret meta, and I blew it up all the time, but it would be a far less interesting game to me if every list worked on the principle of BBBBZ or the howlrunner swarm.

I also think this perspective tends to denigrate the advances made in X-wing's design from wave 4 onward, from actually decent ordnance carriers to turret slot weapons that are actually appealing in and of themselves to turrets that care a lot more about their arcs, aces that like to get in people's faces. Yes, it has made the game more upgrade heavy in response, but it's an added facet to the game and has added in more playstyles than it's removed.

What? You support a joust breaking out in a dogfight? That is just super crazy. Dogfights should not have jousting!!!!! What is happening to our galaxy (JK)

12 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Spot on.

X-Wing has jumped the shark and we are trying to make that clear so we can have Bobby wake up from his dream in the shower before the series gets canned.

It hasn't jumped the shark; not by a long shot. (See, I can make subjective, unsubstantiated statements too.)

On 10/02/2017 at 0:09 AM, Jeff Wilder said:

And there are some people who aren't enjoying the current state of the game -- or who are, but think the situation can use improvement -- and I, for one, am grateful when higher-profile players and podcasters speak up. It's not that I think FFG will favor louder voices ... I just think it's more likely they'll be heard.

Given the nature of the game and it's wave style releases, there is always going to be a section of the player base that dislikes the current meta(how I loath that word).

I started in wave 3, and loved it. But had a vague dislike of the pillars/rock paper scissors. Fast forward to now and the rock/paper/scissors is boiled down to lists now and not really archetypes. So it's now as mature as any other established war game.

Its not the cool and handsome dude in his early twenties. Full of vim and vigor, but a little shallow for all that. Now it's a mature chap, in his mid thirties. In the prime of life, a patina of experience, but without the inevitable decrepitude that hits at exactly 40.

22 minutes ago, Dr Zoidberg said:

It hasn't jumped the shark; not by a long shot. (See, I can make subjective, unsubstantiated statements too.)

Now you're getting the hang of it! This is the Internet you can say whatever you like.

Also... it has.

^Citation needed.

The standard tournament deathmatch may still be 100 points, but scoring rules have changed a few times, intentional draws have come and gone, and several cards have been rewritten to be better balanced. FFG has been willing to make changes in an attempt to keep tournament play from tipping too far in certain directions. We're due for an update to the format, that's all. For me it's really a question of when and how. I hope it's soon, and I hope it's pretty drastic.

I know some of you will hate this idea, but I would make deep cuts with these two new restrictions:

Restricted to 2 turrets per squad. Counting all PWT icons and all upgrades with the word Turret in the title. Miranda + Twin Laser Turret is 2 turrets. Dash + Outrider + Heavy Laser Cannon is just 1 turret, though. There would be quirks like this. I'm actually totally okay with the way that one works out.

Restricted to 2 of any card. Uniques are still limited to 1. All generics (pilots and upgrades) are restricted to a maximum of 2 each. Homogeneous swarms would vanish, but that can only be a positive thing. And you couldn't complain about wasting money on things you could no longer use in standard tournaments. If you think you'd feel ripped off because you couldn't run all 6 copies of Light Scyk Interceptor that come with the C-ROC, I'd just remind you about the C-ROC itself and how you can't use it in standard tournaments either.

2 hours ago, Dr Zoidberg said:

^Citation needed.

http://stayontheleader.blogspot.com/

23 hours ago, DagobahDave said:

For someone just trying to get their head around the core set and a couple of B-Wings, it's entirely possible to encounter Emperor Palpatine your first time out and realize that your idea of what a good squad might be is completely defeated by abilities and flight patterns that aren't even hinted at in the first few waves of the game. That's a problem from a new player's perspective, and for tournament organizers trying to bring in and retain players.

The very game format FFG hopes I'm going to sell new players on has become an exercise in frustration too often. Something really needs to change or tournament play is going to lose its appeal to all but an elite few who don't think anything's missing from the game.

I have experienced this first hand. My brother and I got into this game together, and for the longest time he was the far better pilot. I lost, a lot. I am a freak about "keeping up," so I have a lot of the new releases, and my brother is still exploring b-wings (his fav) and a lot of the older ships. The last couple games I have creamed him, and moreover, the card combos I used to make it happen were unfamiliar to him (since they are new). While I wouldn't say he was pissed, he was certainly flabbergasted at where the game is right now. If you play Wave < 5 vs. Wave > 5, it feels like you are flying WWI biplanes against late-WWII monowings. And hopefully, this game doesn't get to be jets vs. biplanes via power creep.

OTOH, I am going to loose interest fast if the next 5 Waves are all attempts to bring the first 5 Waves up to speed with the last 5 Waves. I think there are creative ways to do it (release Blue Squadron X-wing with a T-65 patch, release Phoenix Squadron A-wing with a patch), but I also don't want to see every ship released twice: once as a Wave, and then again as a "Veterans Pack" to fix it. Which brings me down to Dave's 2nd point. . .and the point of the podcast. . .fun X-Wing and formal X-Wing are not the same game.

2 hours ago, Spider said:

the inevitable decrepitude that hits at exactly 40.

Now that's no way to treat your elders.

1 hour ago, Kdubb said:

http://stayontheleader.blogspot.com/

There's something interesting data in there, certainly. But also a lot of opinion.

I still see nothing to suggest X-Wing has jumped the shark as per the original post. And nor will I, because it's a subjective opinion. He think it has; I think it hasn't. There is no objective way to measure such an assessment.

In Iceland it is illegal to refer to Something as the "best".

28 minutes ago, Velvetelvis said:

In Iceland it is illegal to refer to Something as the "best".

Here in America, you'd best keep that to yourself.

1 hour ago, Dr Zoidberg said:

There's something interesting data in there, certainly. But also a lot of opinion.

I still see nothing to suggest X-Wing has jumped the shark as per the original post. And nor will I, because it's a subjective opinion. He think it has; I think it hasn't. There is no objective way to measure such an assessment.

"Jumping the Shark" is an incorrect phrase to use, because you can never see the 'jump the shark' moment when it happens. It takes perspective to see when a given entertainment has forgotten how to create solid, new entertainment based on the intrinsic values of its medium and resorts to gimmicks that are hyped and then forgotten when the next gimmick comes out...

Wait.

Wave 8 introduced us to Dual Cards and promised that there would be many new uses of them to expand versatility on the tabletop.

Wave 9 all but forgot about them in the face of the newest gimmick, Condition Cards.

It's not a pattern yet, but it's there.

Power Creep, however, cannot be argued. Stay On Target's numbers prove this, with almost 80% of all Top X pilots coming from Wave 7+ (if you reckon TIE/x7 as a Wave 8 card and Lambda with Palp as a Wave 7 card, which is fair seeing as how those ships see no play without it), and pilots which have been standbys since the earliest days of the game (Darth Vader? Soontir Fel?) completely falling off the map.

In some games, power creep is acceptable (You don't exactly see a lot of people playing Serra Angel in Magic the Gathering these days).

In X-Wing, I feel as though it's unacceptable, because it's a game based off of an intellectual property that draws players to it BECAUSE of the iconic ships, not because of the gameplay. If a given player is a fan of B-Wings and A-wings, or really loves the idea of flying Darth Vader around, making his personal favorite ship obsolete and telling him "If you want to play the game for real you've got to buy this obscure ship you've never heard of and fly this pilot you don't care about that was only in four issues of a comic book which has been out of print for over a decade" is a good way to drive him away from the game entirely. Or forcing a player to put something on the table that he legitimately HATES in order to stay competitive; while I think TFA hate is rather petty I do know someone who sold his collection online rather than be forced to play "Fake X-Wings, Fake TIE Fighters, and now a stupid Batshuttle."

Is power creep inevitable? Not if you've got a good, consistent design plan. Malifaux handles it by making scenario and objective play more important than power level (and Wave 1 models are still good when compared to Wave 4!), Magic and Heroclix handles it via planned obsolescence, Battletech handled it by making sure that anything new was priced appropriately against the old and has their pricing system open source and are willing to revise it...

But X-Wing does not have that design plan.

What makes it worse is that there's no actual alternative being promoted by the company. I hardly count Epic among the alternatives as it's basically just an upscaling: "You have tons of ships? Well, buy this big expensive one and play big games!" All FFG promotes is 100 points/6 rocks, and any ship which does not fit into that narrow definition is useless.

If they sold a format where those 'old' ships were useful and fun again, like Heroes of the Aturi Cluster, and stopped pushing the competitive play so hard, then the power creep of competitive play wouldn't be such a problem. But they don't and apparently won't, so it is a problem.

12 minutes ago, iamfanboy said:

In X-Wing, I feel as though it's unacceptable, because it's a game based off of an intellectual property that draws players to it BECAUSE of the iconic ships, not because of the gameplay.

How do you know whether the majority of players are drawn to x-wing because of the iconic ships and not the gameplay?

Just now, LordBlades said:

How do you know whether the majority of players are drawn to x-wing because of the iconic ships and not the gameplay?

Uh, maybe because for months I was the guy hanging out at the store, giving demos, and nine times out of ten - regardless of age or gender - people picking up the box would say, "There's a game with these ships? HOLY COW, these toys are awesome!"

The ships are the bait, the game is the hook and line.

There is nothing wrong with X Wing as a competitive game it is where it should be and does not need to have its format changed

However if you and others in your area are unhappy with how the game is played. this may be due to Dengaroo, Palp lists, Turrets or any other thing your group finds to be a problem. Don't wait for FFG to fix something you can fix yourself. Make your own one off tournament rules that remove the things you hate about the game and play. its a easy enough solution. just post the rules on a website or Face Book so all players who wish to attend know what they are walking into and Play

its easy to do ask the stores where you wish to play for a tournament kit so there are good prizes or just everyone throw in $5 and the winner gets a ship and maybe 1 or more door prizes. Be creative

Store Champs, Regionals, Nationals and Worlds are for the best list/tactics with all the ships and cards available no changes needed there if this is not how you wish to play that is fine work with the people in your community to create something you all can enjoy don't wait for someone to do it for you. you probably wont like there fix anyway.

to the Mynock guys I love long Podcasts as I drive 8 hours a day keep them going overtime

This topic is so silly. Everything is either dead on arrival or overpowered. FFG can never win.