1 hour ago, Viktus106 said:

i'll be honest, beyond the movies and a video game here or there, I didn't really know a lot of the ships or characters that were introduced into this game but i started playing because it had an interesting game mechanic and i recognized some of the early pilots and ships. Now, each release has me wondering who or what that was. I don't watch rebels, never watched clones wars and don't read the novels or comics however, when a new ship does come out, i'm more interested in what it brings to the game than what it represents in the whole SW galaxy. Then, i learn about the characters and their history over a game of x-wing, normally at tournaments.

So with that being said, i don't mind that older ships are being phased out. They will just do what Attack Wing did and re-print/paint/brand them and start again sooner or later anyway and yes, you WILL buy another T-65 X wing because it will be the latest FAQ/errata'd point costed pilot and from a competitive standpoint, you will need it.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Of course people come to this game for all reasons, but just for fast math, it's me, Clan, Blod, and Green vs. you and Ace.

2/3 of us are in the game cuz it's SW. FFG better pander to that.

6 minutes ago, Luke C said:

A better question might be, why do you play now? Is it still star wars? Or do all your friends across the country play it and you like going to events and hanging out with them?

The original question was: why did you start?

2 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Of course people come to this game for all reasons, but just for fast math, it's me, Clan, Blod, and Green vs. you and Ace.

2/3 of us are in the game cuz it's SW. FFG better pander to that.

Wow, that's some powerful math right there. I'm sure your p-value for that data set is worthy of even the most stringent journals.

I'll say I'm here for the gameplay over the fluff, just so that makes it 50/50.

32 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Let's be honest.

Yes, let's. You don't understand how statistics or selection bias work.

14 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

The original question was: why did you start?

Indeed, but the better question especially given the context of "I and everyone else is going to quit if someone doesn't Make the X Wing Great Again" is why do you keep playing.

Just now, Makaze said:

Indeed, but the better question especially given the context of "I and everyone else is going to quit if someone doesn't Make the X Wing Great Again" is why do you keep playing.

+1

People have vanilla WoW servers. Why don't you do the same thing and stop at wave 4 or so? Then you can have your xwing vs tie fighters . You can hold tournaments and people will probably come because its retro!

8 minutes ago, Makaze said:

Yes, let's. You don't understand how statistics or selection bias work.

Yeah, fine, the rest of you can all make unfounded claims about the various aspects of X-Wing all you want. I try to do something to try to back up my claim and all of a sudden the rest of you are professional statisticians.

Wow, this forum sometimes...

Just now, Darth Meanie said:

Yeah, fine, the rest of you can all make unfounded claims about the various aspects of X-Wing all you want. I try to do something to try to back up my claim and all of a sudden the rest of you are professional statisticians.

You want to make unfounded claims, awesome and you and everyone else have certainly done quite a bit of that in this thread, it is understood that though presented as a flat statement that those are your opinions on the subject at hand.

You want to try to make claims presented as statistically backed facts using cripplingly flawed methodology, not cool.

8 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Wow, this forum sometimes...

Yeah, I shoulda opted out about 5 pages ago when the usual bickering started. But what's a guy to do at lunch when he's stuck at his desk?

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

100% Yes. People buy the game because it is Star Wars. They keep buying the game because the mechanics don't suck. If it stops being X-Wing(s), people will stop buying the game.

Go ahead. Rerelease this game with Generic Really Neat Starfighters Represented By Cards and Moved By Templates. Bet it flops.

But who determines it? Because, really, for most of the ships, there are fans of. See the cult of the Assault Gunboat. It goes into the very deep divisions of the Star Wars fandom. There is no one true fan, no one true ideal that shapes what someone should be a fan of. Only a fan of the PT? Star Wars fan. Fan of the cartoons? Star Wars fan. Only the EU? Star Wars fan? PT over OT? Sure, still a SW fan.

You don't have to like content, or even know it, to acknowledge that it is part of Star Wars. Its when you start dismissing segments of the fandom that you start losing your fan cred, imo. You are making the same arguments that have been made since they started releasing EU ships in Wave 3. Guess, what, 7 waves later, the game is still very strong.

56 minutes ago, Makaze said:

You want to make unfounded claims, awesome and you and everyone else have certainly done quite a bit of that in this thread, it is understood that though presented as a flat statement that those are your opinions on the subject at hand.

You want to try to make claims presented as statistically backed facts using cripplingly flawed methodology, not cool.

have you seen the new thread...?

1 hour ago, Sithborg said:

...Star Wars fan? PT over OT? Sure, still a SW fan...

Whoah, whoah, whoah now... I thought we all agreed to drop the hyperbole.

Suggestion:

Wave-restricted tournaments?

I don't like this idea as much as introducing objective-based tournament game modes but what if FFG ran wave-restricted tournaments? Say Waves 1-5, and then Waves 1-? like usual. That would give older players or those who prefer more iconic ships the opportunity to compete at a high level in the way that the game was originally intended to be played, and those who like it how it is can play like usual just fine

I miss the first 8 or so pages of this thread, when it seemed like a lot of interesting and open discussion was happening about how X-Wing can be turned around and put back on track.

Stay On The Leader submitted a great blog post that articulated numerous key points from the thread with a lot of supporting evidence, and rather than talking about those many great points in depth, we're dealing with topics like this:

3 hours ago, Sithborg said:

But who determines it? Because, really, for most of the ships, there are fans of. See the cult of the Assault Gunboat. It goes into the very deep divisions of the Star Wars fandom. There is no one true fan, no one true ideal that shapes what someone should be a fan of. Only a fan of the PT? Star Wars fan. Fan of the cartoons? Star Wars fan. Only the EU? Star Wars fan? PT over OT? Sure, still a SW fan.

You don't have to like content, or even know it, to acknowledge that it is part of Star Wars. Its when you start dismissing segments of the fandom that you start losing your fan cred, imo. You are making the same arguments that have been made since they started releasing EU ships in Wave 3. Guess, what, 7 waves later, the game is still very strong.

I legitimately have no idea how you got the idea that Darth Meanie is dismissing parts of the fandom with what he said here:

6 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

100% Yes. People buy the game because it is Star Wars. They keep buying the game because the mechanics don't suck. If it stops being X-Wing(s), people will stop buying the game.

Go ahead. Rerelease this game with Generic Really Neat Starfighters Represented By Cards and Moved By Templates. Bet it flops.

Who in the world even brought up what makes an actual Star Wars fan??? What does ANY of that have to do with the game mechanics?? If anything the segments of the fandom that have been dismissed on this thread are those of us who like the X-Wing and many of the original ships! The title of the game is X-Wing Miniatures, so naturally the vast majority of players want to see the X-Wing in action. How is this so impossible for people to comprehend?

As for your surface level assessment of what a Star Wars fan is, yes, the PT, OT, shows, EU, and many other sources of Star Wars entertainment all belong to fans of Star Wars. You don't have to know something to know that it is part of Star Wars, but the problem is that in recent years many people do not RESPECT parts of Star Wars culture, and when people brush off concerns that players have about the T-65, A-Wing, Y-Wing, and numerous other original ships from the films and EU, then you are dismissing segments of the fandom. I'd also point out that the Assault Gunboat is still not in the game, and might not be since Disney, and the greater part of what would be considered the Star Wars community, has left the Expanded Universe for dead, and as a result has left a divided community in its wake.

However, all of that is best suited for a discussion on ANOTHER thread.

If you want to have a discussion about why the EU is still important, and why it is important for fans to start building bridges to people who were never knowledgeable or caring about the EU, then I'd be more than happy to oblige. I've been working on writing a paper and creating a video on the subject for half a year now, I'd gladly take the extra input.

If anyone here wants to discuss whether or not there IS a problem with Miniatures in the first place, I'd be happy to have that conversation.

However, please redirect those topics to separate threads! This thread should be discussed in the assumption that there is a problem with the game, and we are highlighting those problems and coming up with possible solutions for the game to grow without leaving old vets and iconic ships behind.

22 hours ago, CosmicCastawayA90 said:

This thread should be discussed in the assumption that there is a problem with the game, and we are highlighting those problems and coming up with possible solutions for the game to grow without leaving old vets and iconic ships behind.

This.

That's why I thought the Mynocks had such a great podcast on the topic; personally I find all their podcasts fun and mentally intriguing. Breaking down the problems with the game is a salty but light format illuminated the big three issues that many find as problems and others find either not important or something to just deal with. 1) Original trilogy ship loss on the competitive scene is one that's subjective entirely; 2) Power creep is one that's obvious, though some seem to have no issue with it and find it appealing...it's negatives also directly correlate to players that hold item #1 as a real issue and 3) Increasing game complexity is, like #2, is obvious and can also be seen to tie into players who hold #1 as a real issue, but not nearly so directly.

It's great conversations that players like the Mynocks, you guys and myself that keep the wonderful living game thriving. Well played guys, well played. Pew-pew!

Now where's my tea?

4 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

the big three issues

I think you forgot the most important one: the change of the game itself! You might argue for it to be a subset of 3), but I'd say that it's both important enough to warrant its own point, and the focus on the activation phase is not exactly the same as increasing complexity.

Other than that, would you like some milk with your tea?

On 2/22/2017 at 1:02 PM, Makaze said:

Indeed, but the better question especially given the context of "I and everyone else is going to quit if someone doesn't Make the X Wing Great Again" is why do you keep playing.

There are a lot of people who have quit playing. I think about half of all the people I know who spent money on the game have quit within 6 months. They don't find the game as fun as it first was once they get into the tournament type scene.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

I think you forgot the most important one: the change of the game itself! You might argue for it to be a subset of 3), but I'd say that it's both important enough to warrant its own point, and the focus on the activation phase is not exactly the same as increasing complexity.

Other than that, would you like some milk with your tea?

1) Original trilogy ship loss on the competitive scene

2) Power creep

3) Increasing game complexity

4) Changing of game mechanics ("change of the game itself" -GreenDragoon)

Good catch on the detailed correction....the lack of tea this afternoon is hampering my gray matter a bit. No milk though. Thanks!

1 minute ago, heychadwick said:

There are a lot of people who have quit playing. I think about half of all the people I know who spent money on the game have quit within 6 months. They don't find the game as fun as it first was once they get into the tournament type scene.

There are a lot of people who just started playing that are having a lot of fun. I know people who jumped in and are having a great time taking the game at face value.

Just now, clanofwolves said:

1) Original trilogy ship loss on the competitive scene

2) Power creep

3) Increasing game complexity

4) Changing of game mechanics ("change of the game itself" -GreenDragoon)

Good catch on the detailed correction....the lack of tea this afternoon is hampering my gray matter a bit. No milk though. Thanks!

David Sutcliffe called it "Mechanics Balance": Definition: a growing perception that better dice modification and dice inflation (having more dice - Finn, Fenn Rau, Ghost etc) are making how you actually fly your list less relevant. To some players it seems like X-Wing has become a game about building a effective squad, rather than flying a squad in effective ways.

My own thoughts on it:

This leads to a change in skill requirements to be good at the game. List building became more important (and this boils down to netlisting for a huge amount of people) while flying and decision making are decreased in importance.

That leads to two important consequences:
1. Many players feel some kind of betrayal - the game changed under their nose and now their once carefully honed skills are less important
2. The game slowly loses the ability to provide a feeling of accomplishment. If I netlist Paratanni, Dengaroo or Commonwealth Defender and wipe the floor with homemade lists, what exactly is my own acchievement? The ability to use google? And how does that make the other players feel?

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

To some players it seems like X-Wing has become a game about building a effective squad, rather than flying a squad in effective ways.

This.

My issue to a T....or to a tea.

I think a great pilot should always be able to trump ship type, weapons, synergies, etc.

Isn't that the Star Wars story at its very core?? ....not to wax too poetic.

8 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I think a great pilot should always be able to trump ship type, weapons, synergies, etc.

Isn't that the Star Wars story at its very core?? ....not to wax too poetic.

...not that I'm an Ewok hater, but I couldn't resist.

and I agree.

6 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

This.

My issue to a T....or to a tea.

I think a great pilot should always be able to trump ship type, weapons, synergies, etc.

Isn't that the Star Wars story at its very core?? ....not to wax too poetic.

"What a hunk of junk" - Luke Skywalker, upon first laying eyes on the Millennium falcon.

"You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought" Leia, upon first sight of same.

If we wax poetic for a moment, then yes, great pilots trumping better ships is what star wars is all about, to a degree. How many times did Han out fly a star destroyer, or a squad of tie fighters? All while flying garbage. "The garbage will do" - Rey, The force awakens. So yes, we want cinematic dog fights and ship chases that this game has seemingly left behind.

11 minutes ago, Clancampbell said:

"What a hunk of junk" - Luke Skywalker, upon first laying eyes on the Millennium falcon.

"You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought" Leia, upon first sight of same.

If we wax poetic for a moment, then yes, great pilots trumping better ships is what star wars is all about, to a degree. How many times did Han out fly a star destroyer, or a squad of tie fighters? All while flying garbage. "The garbage will do" - Rey, The force awakens. So yes, we want cinematic dog fights and ship chases that this game has seemingly left behind.

The falcon only LOOKS like garbage (apparently). The ship itself isn't actually garbage in the movies, it's actually quite heavily modified to be ABLE to outfly stuff. It's not like han is such an amazing pilot that he's outflying everyone in a flying piece of trash that can barely get off the ground.

2 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

The falcon only LOOKS like garbage (apparently). The ship itself isn't actually garbage in the movies, it's actually quite heavily modified to be ABLE to outfly stuff.

But alas Han can stack focus tokens and his 3 dice PWT are not enough to push through the red dice on his opponents. That's why the falcon was destroyed off screen by some bounty hunters nobody ever heard of or saw or cares about.

32 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

This.

My issue to a T....or to a tea.

I think a great pilot should always be able to trump ship type, weapons, synergies, etc.

Isn't that the Star Wars story at its very core?? ....not to wax too poetic.

I don't really think you'll ever really see that in a game where you can pick your squads. That being said, they could do more to make pure one-action ships better by making them straight cheaper across the board and offering easier access to the action economy.