4 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Well according to that link Bunke got knocked out in Top-8 and Paratanni won?

yup, but 5th in swiss with a 914 MOV is nothing to scoff at. You wanted what people would regard as a poor meta choice AND still do well. This IS an example of that.

Yep. It knocked me out of top 16 as well :/

16 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

It is my hope and thought that the FFG designers rely on such data.

Having been on an FFG playtest team in the past, this certainly wasn't my experience.

You're designing 18 months into the future so your playtesting is using several waves of new releases that are not being included in any current meta data, so it's not especially helpful. FFG design and playtesting could be quite haphazard, sometimes you'd playtest something then the printed version might be different and have received no playtesting.

3 minutes ago, Luke C said:

yup, but 5th in swiss with a 914 MOV is nothing to scoff at. You wanted what people would regard as a poor meta choice AND still do well. This IS an example of that.

Losing in Top-8 is exactly what I'd expect a good non-meta list to do. It beats the bad players, it beats the average players with good lists who can't adjust to the unfamiliar strategy, then it loses to the good players with good lists. It proves nothing other than that he picked the wrong list and should probably have taken Paratanni.

4 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Having been on an FFG playtest team in the past, this certainly wasn't my experience.

You're designing 18 months into the future so your playtesting is using several waves of new releases that are not being included in any current meta data, so it's not especially helpful. FFG design and playtesting could be quite haphazard, sometimes you'd playtest something then the printed version might be different and have received no playtesting.

"Give it a floor run and see if it plays."

4 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

And if I had free rein then VI and Crack Shot would also be getting a trim.

I think your list would be a great start but would also have to deal with a few other things. Sabine crew would need to be added at +1 or hit with a range restriction. As you said in your later posts Mindlink is a tough one. As soon as the preview came out I told my local playgroup that it would be a monster. I personally dislike it because it is limited to only Scum. It gives the entire faction such a huge leg up over the others that I think the ban is warranted.

5 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I don't how you can make possibly that judgement, as such things would be very difficult to predict.

I would argue that currently the field is extremely narrow to begin with and I struggle to see how it can narrow much further. The top 10 archetypes on Meta-Wing basically come from variations on 5 ships - Jumpmaster, Shadow Caster, Protectorate, Defender, K-Wing - with other ships appearing only rarely. Most of the existing squads in the top 20 archetypes would remain playable they would just need to squeeze a few points out somewhere, bringing them down a peg towards everything else.

In theory it should lead to a smaller gap between the 'haves' and 'have nots' of X-Wing and thus a wider range of viable routes to a successful squad.

I actually appreciate your action economy argument. The problem is, to balance previous mistakes, FFG has had to up the ante or nerf previous design.

Offender 1: PWTs.

Offender 2: The original action stackers (Whisper, Corran Horn, etc.)

Offender 3: PWTs with Twin Laser Turret

Offender 4: Emperor Palpatine

Offender 5: Ordinance and unblockable damage

Offender 6: Defenders/Attani Mindlink

Each mistake built on the last. PWTs were too good so they came out with non-turreted ships that could compete with turrets. FFG gave them extra actions to re-position and token up so when they couldn't get arc, they could reliably dodge PWT shots. FFG made the original action stackers a little too good, relative to PWTs so they made turreted ships that could shoot twice. Quad TLTs were/are throwing 24 dice a turn so they needed a way to tank up the smaller ships. They printed Autothrusters. At this point, they could have corrected the metagame more easily but they printed Emperor Palpatine. He lowered variance across the board so ships that were hard to kill were almost unkillable. Ships that hit pretty hard now hit very hard. To counter the unkillable ships, FFG came out with unblockable damage and enhanced ordinance. These effects basically would wipe aces off the board so they fixed Defenders. They could withstand the unblockable damage and ordinance, at least one or two turns. Alternatively, non-Imperial ships could tank up with Attani Mindlink. So now we're at a point where there are mistakes and there are ships that can heavily modify their dice to make up for those mistakes.

If you use meta-wing to watch chunks of time in two month spans, you'll see this progression. FFG makes something overly powerful, relative to the field, and corrects it with new printings. The problem with constantly raising the bar is that you leave ships in the dust. However, when everyone can modify their dice, nothing's inherently at an advantage at the top tables. They succeeded in balancing the metagame but in the process they made many ships obsolete. You could say this is a natural consequence of an expanding game, the idea I subscribe to, so does it matter that ships became obsolete since it was inevitable that ships would become obsolete anyway? That's a subjective question. Since, the metagame is actually balanced right now and much better than previous metagames, in my opinion, I don't mind that you can't reasonably play some ships, especially since I consider that an inevitability anyway. It does mean that to compete you have to play powerful action economy or one of the previous mistakes. That's why some find the game unrecognizable or heading in an unrecognizable direction.

I've posted elsewhere that to return to the earlier form of the game, you must have rotation and I think I've spelled out why in this post. I think it's good for expanding games to rotate anyway. It opens up design space and self-corrects former mistakes over time but you'll still have the problem of not being able to play with all your ships. No matter what, you can't play with all your ships forever.

3 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

But that's kind of the problem - PTL on a HWK is fine, PTL on a Bomber is fine... the EPT is discriminatory. If you keep the EPT all future designs have to be built with it in mind. Assuming we aren't going to rewrite the dials of existing ships then the EPT is the issue.

Palp is the most obvious absentee from my list. Historically he's been most problematic when used alongside other cards already being hit (like PTL) so I'd give him a chance to work once they're gone or are more expensive, see if he's still a problem.

You were just complaining earlier about there only being like 5 ships being used in the meta right now, none of which (for imperial) use PTL. Palp is being used with defenders now. Commonwealth defenders, RAC + defender (which doesn't always use palp, but...). Palp doesn't see much play with PTL right now.

2 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

^ citation needed. There are VERY few examples of recent upsets in significant tournaments.

In the first 10 regional results I looked at:

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=2602 won by Bossk/Fenn/Cartel Spacer. Sure it has Fenn in it, but it also has a YV-666 and a freaking Scyk, neither of which are on your list of 5 ships that basically make up the meta. And Fenn has PTL, which is also on your list, but isn't the far more meta Mindlink.

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=2593 Carnor/Chiranaeu. Gogo 0 agi decimator. Has PTL, but none of your "meta" ships.

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=2577 Bossk/Ketsu. It has a lancer, but its not asajj like most "meta" lists, and again, YV666.

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=2573 Kanan/Biggs. None of your "meta" ships here.

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=2565 Rey/Norra. Again with the lack of your 5 ships.

Hell, a regional the week after worlds was won by Dash/Poe http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=2509

1 hour ago, AceWing said:

Each mistake built on the last. PWTs were too good so they came out with non-turreted ships that could compete with turrets. FFG gave them extra actions to re-position and token up so when they couldn't get arc, they could reliably dodge PWT shots. FFG made the original action stackers a little too good, relative to PWTs so they made turreted ships that could shoot twice. Quad TLTs were/are throwing 24 dice a turn so they needed a way to tank up the smaller ships. They printed Autothrusters. At this point, they could have corrected the metagame more easily but they printed Emperor Palpatine. He lowered variance across the board so ships that were hard to kill were almost unkillable. Ships that hit pretty hard now hit very hard. To counter the unkillable ships, FFG came out with unblockable damage and enhanced ordiance. These effects basically would wipe aces off the board so they fixed Defenders. They could get withstand the unblockable damage and ordinance, at least one or two turns. Alternatively, non-Imperial ships could tank up with Attani Mindlink. So now we're at a point where there are mistakes and there are ships that can heavily modify their dice to make up for those mistakes.

Minor correction: Autothrustres came out before TLT, autothrusters were the answer to large ship PWTs in wave 6, TLT came out in the k-wing in wave 7.

15 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

You were just complaining earlier about there only being like 5 ships being used in the meta right now, none of which (for imperial) use PTL. Palp is being used with defenders now. Commonwealth defenders, RAC + defender (which doesn't always use palp, but...). Palp doesn't see much play with PTL right now.

Apart from that Defenders usually means Ryad which usually means PTL so... ok? And if it's not Defenders it's Deci with Palp and Ryad with PTL. Or Inquisitor with Palp and PTL...

???

Oh and your Regionals... one was four months ago, one was in Brazil who don't have all the sets, one was like 50 people, and one proved my point by the winner using a Shadow Caster. So... ok again?


EDIT: I just my regionals downloads. Out of 40 Countess Ryads in TOp-8 cuts of Regioanls 40 played Push The Limit. So yeah, none of the Imperial players play PTL... apart from basically all of them.

1 hour ago, AceWing said:

No matter what, you can't play with all your ships forever.

Then I've wasted my money on this game. This is the exact reason I don't play magic, because I know anything I buy is actually just a rental and will be phased out in a few months. So I'm supposed to accept that all those $15 ships I bought last year was wasted money. Time to buy all new again this cycle. That's a joke. Design a **** good game that doesn't obsolete stuff. People will still buy new stuff because the want too.

@Stay On The Leader I'm not going against what you're saying, but didn't phildo won a regionals with juke ryad + rac? I am just wondering if data is missing from juggler.

6 minutes ago, Clancampbell said:

Then I've wasted my money on this game. This is the exact reason I don't play magic, because I know anything I buy is actually just a rental and will be phased out in a few months. So I'm supposed to accept that all those $15 ships I bought last year was wasted money. Time to buy all new again this cycle. That's a joke. Design a **** good game that doesn't obsolete stuff. People will still buy new stuff because the want too.

That's an exaggeration but eventual obsolescence is the nature of an expandable game.

13 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Apart from that Defenders usually means Ryad which usually means PTL so... ok? And if it's not Defenders it's Deci with Palp and Ryad with PTL. Or Inquisitor with Palp and PTL...

???

Oh and your Regionals... one was four months ago, one was in Brazil who don't have all the sets, one was like 50 people, and one proved my point by the winner using a Shadow Caster. So... ok again?


EDIT: I just my regionals downloads. Out of 40 Countess Ryads in TOp-8 cuts of Regioanls 40 played Push The Limit. So yeah, none of the Imperial players play PTL... apart from basically all of them.

Sure, Ryad does use PTL. She's not the only defender out there though, and pretty mcuh no other defender uses PTL.

As for the regionals, I'll grant you that brazil doesn't have all the sets. On the other hand, it DOES have x7 defenders and fenn. Just not the lancer. As for the 55 people, so what? Doesn't change who won, and he even beat paratanni in the cut.

And way to completely ignore the regional *last weekend* that was won by a decimator and a tie interceptor. And while another was a shadowcaster, it wasn't asajj, who's the "meta" pilot for the ship. You also ignored the list with a YV and a Scyk in it. Unless you're going to tell me fenn won that tournament all by himself.

As for one being 4 months ago, so what? The top meta lists right now are all ships and upgrades that have existed since before worlds.

1 minute ago, AceWing said:

That's the nature of an expandable game.

I love how folks just accept this as true. It doesn't have to be that way. It's lazy play testing and even lazier design.

5 minutes ago, Clancampbell said:

I love how folks just accept this as true. It doesn't have to be that way. It's lazy play testing and even lazier design.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

1 minute ago, Clancampbell said:

I love how folks just accept this as true. It doesn't have to be that way. It's lazy play testing and even lazier design.

Your xwings are NOT obsolete, but you just cant fly 4 of them competitively anymore. NOTHING is stopping you from playing a casual game and playing with your toys. NO ONE is stopping you from bringing whatever you please to a regional. If you practice a lot, you might even surprise a lot of people. HOWEVER, its not the most optimal squad to bring in this environment.

1 minute ago, AceWing said:

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

On which part? If you want to accept that that's "just how it is" and you are happy with that, then more power to you. Have fun!

However, if you think it has to be that way, then I strongly disagree and would be happy to continue the debate.

2 minutes ago, Luke C said:

Your xwings are NOT obsolete, but you just cant fly 4 of them competitively anymore. NOTHING is stopping you from playing a casual game and playing with your toys. NO ONE is stopping you from bringing whatever you please to a regional. If you practice a lot, you might even surprise a lot of people. HOWEVER, its not the most optimal squad to bring in this environment.

This is true. But why? Why have the designers left the X-wings behind, and why are people ok with it?

For what it's worth, I've never flown 4 X-wings. I don't even own 4 X-wings.

Just now, Clancampbell said:

This is true. But why? Why have the designers left the X-wings behind, and why are people ok with it?

For what it's worth, I've never flown 4 X-wings. I don't even own 4 X-wings.

They havent left anything behind. They just aren't as OMG as they were before. Wedge isn't nearly as scary cause there are lots of scary out there. Also Biggs just outshines every other xwing so dramatically that the designers need to be careful not to buff xwings and make Biggs an enormous problem.

Xwings wasn't my point though....

2 minutes ago, Luke C said:

They havent left anything behind. They just aren't as OMG as they were before. Wedge isn't nearly as scary cause there are lots of scary out there. Also Biggs just outshines every other xwing so dramatically that the designers need to be careful not to buff xwings and make Biggs an enormous problem.

Xwings wasn't my point though....

Right. The point made, and others have said, some ships just aren't as good. No matter how much you practice, you won't beat a top tier list assuming equal skill levels. That to me is sad. I also say forget assumed skill level. My son hasn't played since wave 1. I could hand him a top list and give him a refresher course, and he'd probably go out and dominate. That's not a good state of affairs if you ask me.

29 minutes ago, AceWing said:

That's an exaggeration but eventual obsolescence is the nature of a POORLY DESIGNED expandable game.

Fixed that for you.

Quote

Offender 3: PWTs with Twin Laser Turret

You know PWT stands for Primary Weapon Turret, right?

2 minutes ago, Blue Five said:

You know PWT stands for Primary Weapon Turret, right?

They're probably referring to the likes of the K-Wing, which has no true TLT doughnut. If you're inside the TLT donught, a K-Wing is throwing a 3-die PWT attack.

3 minutes ago, gennataos said:

They're probably referring to the likes of the K-Wing, which has no true TLT doughnut. If you're inside the TLT donught, a K-Wing is throwing a 3-die PWT attack.

would have been easier to say kwing...

22 minutes ago, Blue Five said:

You know PWT stands for Primary Weapon Turret, right?

It was just a typo from copying and pasting.

Quote

I love how folks just accept this as true. It doesn't have to be that way. It's lazy play testing and even lazier design.

It's not lazy design. How are you supposed to have a dynamic game when it's the same as what you were playing in Wave I? That's how games die really quickly.

I really am at a loss responding to you guys anymore because, and I don't mean this insultingly, you seem to have COMPLETELY unrealistic expectations. I don't want to play wave after wave rehashing what occured in Wave I. I like that the game with its abilities and tactics evolve. Flying is still very much important. All the arguments you guys make about outflying is ridiculous because no matter which wave you idealize, equally skilled players still won off the back of their abilities and modifications because when neither player makes a mistake, it comes down to builds and modifications.

Whoever it was that told me to skip these kinds of threads was right.