No ship hits as hard, moves as fast, all while costing as little as a fully kitted Demolisher. Point for point it’s the best in the game. Which is exactly why I have hated it, I guess hate is too strong a word… disliked with the utmost intensity. It very well could be that it’s a very well balanced title that is no more popular than anyof the hard hitting titles out there. Turns out no other named ship title even comes close to matching the Empires golden boy. This statement is not entirely true, the rebels have one title that comes close, but more on that later.

The below are questions that I answered looking at over 60,000 lists built on Nevetz Warlords Fleet Builder. So huge shout-out to him and go support his awesome work on Patreon.

So how popular is Demolisher and how does it stack up to the rest of the Empire’s named ships?

Roughly 40% of all empire lists in 2016 included Demolisher. This isn’t a perfect metric as a lot happened and a lot was released in 2016. So looking at a time series we see that the popularity of Demolisher has trended down over time to roughly 28% in 2017 year-to-date (YTD). What surprised me about the numbers is how dominate the top three named titles are.

I've said that directly nerfing cards like Demolisher is an unlikely solution. Yeah, I'd buy a second chance to get over/underpowered cards right. But it's not really at the level of the Imperial Assault "four-by-four," which is the precedent for an FFG nerf.

The preferred method, as you identify, seems to be the soft counter. Flotillas, Targeting Scramblers, Reinforced Blast Doors, Damage Control Officer, powerful new objectives, and the meta of high activation count all try to punish the GenCon Special all-out rush for the enemy's soft underbelly. It's softened Demolisher's dominance in the competitive scene for sure. But those things haven't been the thing to validate new

New toys are the answer! We just need something equally attractive, but not compatible. Captain Jonus doesn't quite replace Major Rhymer, but he's cool. Arquitens are all over the tournament scene, for about the price point of Demolisher. Jerjerrod finally gives you a reason to pick something other than Motti, and he manages to undercut him on points too. These aren't going to completely wipe out the Wave 1-2 meta, but they're nice new options and I think they're the right direction. They may continue to develop roles.

What I'd like to see is for Demolisher to remain strong, but for new ships to get boosted up to be great options as well. How about a viable second title for the Gladiator? See the title contest thread for some ideas. How about a viable second TIE Bomber ace, that can also be the fulcrum of a bomber wing while not just making Rhymer better?

One thing about demolisher is that it still has lots of weaknesses, and even at close range when it can't get away, things like a Neb and a Pelta can overwhelm its defenses.

But yes, deployed correctly into a flank and with high activation advantage, Demo is pretty good.

And yes, many of the other titles are huge crap. And that's what I wish they would buff.

My complaint with many of the upgrades is that you're making your ships more expensive to have a soft counter. Targeting scramblers is a good example. Great concept with poor execution. Interdictor with Targeting scramblers is a 100 pt ship... all to have a soft counter to a 90pt ship?

I was hoping that smittys regional data would show the popularity of demo going down because of all these new toys... but its not. Demo is making as strong of an appearance as ever.

A great counter to a Demo is a Demo of your very own.

Revamping old titles is just one method. I'd be game for adding a lot more titles for each ship. Give a VSD title with the ability to counter attack a ship with the arc that is attacked when attacked at close range. Probably a bad example but its a thought at least.

I'm a newbie, I don't yet own a Gladiator, so my input would be lacking if I had any. I just wanted to give you props for your OP, professional and telling are vast understatements. Your Demolisher bashing aside, I think there is a general understanding of your facts. I read a lot on this forum as I am trying to learn the game and I do see a constant underbelly thread of Armada though retorts of Wave IV and now grasping Wave V. This thread completely supports your research: the Empire has a vary limited group of truly competitive commanders, anti-squadron mechanics, and a few ships that languish a bit in comparison to the Rebel line. The Demolisher, obviously, being one counter to this issue, perhaps too high a counter, that obviously is the go-to due to a lack of other options. Although I am competitive only in the amazingly casual and early Wave scene, I see myself moving into the waters that you have exposed. I'm betting FFG has thought about this weakness and will attempt to issue new commanders that have possibilities for great things while not just being an OP blip on the screen; I think Jerjerrod is one such move in that direction.

To explain my novice, I'm currently looking at making a build with my newly acquired ISD, with Wave I and II upgrade cards, haha; Fun!

I dont disagree with you some of what you said but I feel like the issue isnt specifically with Demo its with how limited and viable Imperial builds are compared to Rebels so people tend to gravitate towards it. My buddy and I weekly test imperial builds to find new ways to build competitive lists are with each wave we usually only come up with 1 list each that we feel are competitive. Whenever we sit down to build Rebel lists to test against the Imperial lists I cant count how many times we have thrown together a random list for Rebels that has stomped our well thought out and thoroughly tested Imperial lists. Demo is not an issue in my opinion right now because its a very thin thread that gives the Empire a real threat. And in my opinion pound for pound an MC-30 loaded up with Admo/Rieekan can not only put our more damage but can survive against just about ship in the game toe to toe including the demo.

I would love to see an evaluation on the comparison of the Rebel commanders vs the Imperial commanders and their roles in competitive builds. I think the real problem lies in how much more effective and dynamic the Rebel commanders are vs the Imperial ones. To me that is one of the biggest issues not to mention it always seems like the Rebels fleets are much more cost effective to build. I think we need to look at the bigger picture and stop focusing on the individual upgrades. Good and or experienced players can mitigate or negate demo but we cant do anything about how dynamic the rebels are in competitive build construction.

@Clanofwolves - I'm not convinced JerJer really helps against the Demo rushing in and triple tapping a VSD. The new commander undoubtably helps one of the main complaints about the VSD but I don't see how it mitigates how fast Demo can move going from outside a VSDs firing arc to being right next to it unloading on it and then the next turn moving at speed 4 to the rear of the target ship and usually on to the next target before the VSD can even respond and thats if it even survives. Being able to turn sharply in this instance does little to even up the match up between the two ships, especially when considering that a VSD with minimal upgrades costs more.

@Overdawg - Unfortantely I don't have to data to determine which commanders are showing up in competitive play... BUT SMITTY DOES! I'd encourage you to take a look at his posts. In a previous post I did look at which commanders where the most popular according to warlord data but admittedly that was some time ago.

42 minutes ago, PartyPotato said:

@Clanofwolves - I'm not convinced JerJer really helps against the Demo rushing in and triple tapping a VSD. The new commander undoubtably helps one of the main complaints about the VSD but I don't see how it mitigates how fast Demo can move going from outside a VSDs firing arc to being right next to it unloading on it and then the next turn moving at speed 4 to the rear of the target ship and usually on to the next target before the VSD can even respond and thats if it even survives. Being able to turn sharply in this instance does little to even up the match up between the two ships, especially when considering that a VSD with minimal upgrades costs more.

@Overdawg - Unfortantely I don't have to data to determine which commanders are showing up in competitive play... BUT SMITTY DOES! I'd encourage you to take a look at his posts. In a previous post I did look at which commanders where the most popular according to warlord data but admittedly that was some time ago.

@PartyPotato I have been playing this game competitively since release and trust me I am well aware of the data. I was pointing out the issue with commanders not because I dont know the answer but because I know they are not balanced. I am just too lazy to write up such a well put together post.

One other thing to consider based on SMITTYs data is that if the Demo was so unbalancing why arent Imperial lists dominating the regional tournament circuit. If you look at the last reported 6 regionals and the top 4 from them you will see that of the 24 lists only 8 were Imperial lists and of those only 4 had Demo and only 1 Imperial list won a regional.

@Scooterdawg - Great points. I agree with you and Smittys supporting data that Demo is definitely not breaking the game. But it would appear from the most recent regional results that there is an argument to be made that Demo is making players predictable and that in itself can give the opposing side an advantage.

Digging a bit deeper and extrapolating further on the recent regional outcomes. Could it be that rebels have more tools at their disposal to bring to bear when dealing with a Demolisher? Combine that with the knowledge that more often then not you will be facing a list with a Demo in it (if empire) allowing you to prepare accordingly. Demo has been around for a long time and the strategies it uses to be successful really haven't changed while the options available (particularly for the rebels) to deal with it have evolved and improved. As many have pointed out, bombers, kiting conga lines, and big fish lists all stand as big obstacles to Demos success.

Basically there maybe a bit of a paper rock scissors action going on with list composition.

Interesting read and nice to see the graphs. I do think the Demo has been the standout Imperial ship for a number of waves, whereas, like others have said above, the Rebels have tended to have a more balanced array of ships.

However, I think the Arquitens has and will continue to do a lot to rebalance some of this, only it's perhaps too early to tell. My latest Imperial CC fleets whitewashed my Rebel counterparts and the best list I had was a Vader led ISD with double Arqs; no Demo in sight.

I would like to see some of the VSD titles improved. They've definitely seen better days, and if I use a VSD I tend to use it naked of a title.

Agree with the frustration of the OP about the lack of creative variety for the Imperials. The Vic, Interdictor, and ISD are pizza with different toppings. That leaves the Gozanti (auto-include), Arc10, Raider, and Gladiator. I find I'm gravitating toward Demo or ISD bomber builds most often as I can't really build a list around Raiders (w/o Demo) or Arc10s. Exception being Interdictor, possibly.

However, while I agree that DEMO worsens this lack of diversity by being too good to pass up, it appears to also be the answer to the "Mandatory Triangle" problem. After all, take DEMO away and you're basically guaranteed to face an ISD every single game, which might also be annoying to always play against (as a Rebel) or have to always build a list around (as an Imperial). On the flip side, as an Imperial player, complaining about always having to fly an ISD is a little like complaining about having to always drive your father's tank to school.

well I just found out about this thread (Thx Gink)

Nicely done research. It proves what everyone has been thinking for a while: Imps need love not just in terms of commanders, but in terms of good titles as well. And, I think we see Demo very often because it's one of the few good titles. Yeah it's borderline OP, but if all the other options are bad, why go with something else? At least Rebels have options: Yavaris, Salvation, Home One, Deliverance, Paragon, DD's Pride, Jaina's light, are all good but not too costly titles (or they're priced just right). That's why you don't see the same title over and over again.

I'm completely for the idea of a card pack that fixes everything armada related (point cost, effect, etc).

I just doubt FFG has the guts to admit to so many mistakes...

Great research, though i don't share as strong anti demo views and never found it problematic (mainly because i always play about 134 points of squadrons in tournies), I think the graph showing the decline of demo in lists overall will keep everyone happy.

Demo has really dropped off and can no longer really be used in it's most powerful way. The tripple tap. It blows my mind that people complain about floatillas without thinking about the effect MSU has on counting demo. The sheer diversity of matchups compared to Wave 2 means that DeMSU is nowhere near as consistent as it used to be. To use Demos they are slowrolled because poking one out is a sure way to get it killed.

As for titles strongly dissagree:

Goz: Vector/Suppressor are both good

Raider: Instigator/Impetuous " " "

Arquitens: Hand of Justice is good, Centicore obviously not as useful but ok

Demo: Demolisher is staple, Insidious is not really played anymore

VSD: Corruptor is fine use it in tourney winning lists, Warlord as well, Dominator is pretty bad...

Interdictor: Interdictor is good, x2 ECM, x2 Targeting Scrambler etc...etc..

ISD: Avenger is good/Relentless is good, Devestator is much the same as Dominator though better

I've had most of these in winning lists, Corruptor, Warlord, both Raider titles, both Goz titles. I think the issue is the ships and people flying them/not flying them to be blunt.

Of course the titles are under-represented if nobody likes and always complains about playing Raiders/Interdictors/VSDs. With the exception of Dominator/Devestator every other title is well costed and or perfectly playable. Tua/DF makes things like Supressor/Slicer, Warlord, Instigator way more resiliant. Besides the two +dice titles I'd be suprised if you could muster any decent argument against any other title.