scathing tirade and terrify dont work with intimidating because when you downgrade you cannot remove dice, you can onlh change a red to a purple, and since there is no red in the check they dont work (unless the Gm flips a DP or rules that circumstances warrant an upgrade) .

opposed players cant use nobodys fool , or intimidating as these only trigger when someone gets targeted with the "attack", since terrify and scwthing tirade are effectively AOE then they cannot apply.

This is one of the reasons I dont lkke the idea of influence working with Tirade because of further interactions witn talents lkke no escape. ie a warden (I mentioned this earlier) who could use the results from the force dice (FR6) on a scathing tirade check to get another 3 or 4 NPC to lose their free maneuvers. The devs however did previously rule that it wasnt possible to add dice from influence on a terrify check , even if the player did offer to split their available FR between influence and terrify eg rolling a terrify action with 2 Force Dice on terrify and 4 on influence is not possible , you can only use up to 6 dice on terrify, that is it. perhaps the same rule they referred to for that alao refers here, but they did say it wasnt possible to mix like that.

8 hours ago, FuriousGreg said:

It doesn't need to specify that Influence is an action because activation of a Force Power is always an action unless specifically ruled otherwise . Unless you can find somewhere in the RAW that positively shows that activation of Influence isn't an action then it is one. So, since both are actions and only one action can be preformed in a Turn there is no overlap because once you activate the Talent you've used your action so you cannot activate the Force Power to cause the conflict. Same for the other way around: once you activate Influence you've used your action and cannot activate Scathing Tirade. Nothing gets superseded because you can't activate both to create the situation in the first place.

Which means you can never use the force to boost a skill, because they all require you to take the action: skill and would use influence. enhance, etc afterwards, which they can not do as rolling force dice is an action. ;-)

And while we are at it we ignore the options for combined checks

BTW, why we are discussion this now in a loop? That stuff had been all on page one already …1

2 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

BTW, why we are discussion this now in a loop? That stuff had been all on page one already …1

Because talking about the game mechanics and rules is half the fun with RPGs!! LOL. I mean serious, could you imagine D&D without talking about cheesy builds and sneaky tricks?

37 minutes ago, masterstrider said:

Because talking about the game mechanics and rules is half the fun with RPGs!! LOL. I mean serious, could you imagine D&D without talking about cheesy builds and sneaky tricks?

Yes, perfectly. That is the reason why I am fine to play DnD clones without that silly stuff, but would not touch D&D with a ten foot pole. ;-)

But that wasn't my point, my point was that the discussion is going in circles, which is rather pointless even if you enjoy talking about "cheesy builds and sneaky tricks".

8 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Which means you can never use the force to boost a skill, because they all require you to take the action: skill and would use influence. enhance, etc afterwards, which they can not do as rolling force dice is an action. ;-)

And while we are at it we ignore the options for combined checks

BTW, why we are discussion this now in a loop? That stuff had been all on page one already …1

Well no because those that boost a skill explicitly say "when making a X check",

x being the skill in question and thusly the types of action where as a talent is it's own type of action in which you also make a skill check. At least this is what I'm getting from Sams statement.

13 hours ago, masterstrider said:

Very interesting discussion though...it made my work day pass much quicker

Yes, I enjoy the problem solving too. It seems we were essentially arguing the same point, a problem that can happen sometimes in these threads

20 hours ago, FuriousGreg said:

It doesn't need to specify that Influence is an action because activation of a Force Power is always an action unless specifically ruled otherwise . Unless you can find somewhere in the RAW that positively shows that activation of Influence isn't an action then it is one. So, since both are actions and only one action can be preformed in a Turn there is no overlap because once you activate the Talent you've used your action so you cannot activate the Force Power to cause the conflict. Same for the other way around: once you activate Influence you've used your action and cannot activate Scathing Tirade. Nothing gets superseded because you can't activate both to create the situation in the first place.

Making a skill check is also always an action unless specified otherwise. So by your reasoning here, a character should never be allowed to use a Coercion check in activating Scathing Tirade, because making a Coercion check is an action and so is Scathing Tirade, and the rules for Scathing Tirade don't specifically sate that the Coercion check is not an action.

Also, as I pointed out above, this line of reasoning implies that you can never use a Force power to add dice to a skill check in combat, because again, a skill check requires an action and so does a Force power.

Your line of reasoning follows the RAW, I agree, but it also leads to absurd conclusions really fast.

18 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

Making a skill check is also always an action unless specified otherwise. So by your reasoning here, a character should never be allowed to use a Coercion check in activating Scathing Tirade, because making a Coercion check is an action and so is Scathing Tirade, and the rules for Scathing Tirade don't specifically sate that the Coercion check is not an action.

Also, as I pointed out above, this line of reasoning implies that you can never use a Force power to add dice to a skill check in combat, because again, a skill check requires an action and so does a Force power.

Your line of reasoning follows the RAW, I agree, but it also leads to absurd conclusions really fast.

That line of logic doesn't lead there at all . In fact, they are only absurd conclusions if someone don't understand the principles of how roleplaying games work: that a game consistently makes allowances of its own rules (or, essentially it breaks its own rules) to do things outside the norm

1. A game determines its base rules. These rules are, in principle, absolute. For example: a character may never perform more than 2 maneuvers in a turn.
2. A game introduces other factors that create allowances in (or breaks) the rules under specific circumstances. For example: there are, so far, 3 methods to allow for a third maneuver in a turn, and several more that allow for out-of-turn maneuvers.

Basically, this counterargument implies that the game can't do that, even though it does. All the time.

So, in the cases we've been beating to death, Influence and Enhance (along with Manipulate and other Force powers likely to come), each have allowances that effectively allow a player to roll Force dice with a regular skill check. They do not, however, allow the player to roll Force dice when activating a talent like Scathing Tirade or Field Commander. This is because both are actions, and cannot be used together. On the other hand, Enhanced Leader is a passive talent, which allows the player to add dice to specific checks, and is not fundamentally different from the passive talents that add Boost dice to certain checks (such as Command, Quick Strike, Talker, etc.); because adding the dice is a passive ability and not an active one (in particular, not an action).

23 minutes ago, Blackbird888 said:

That line of logic doesn't lead there at all . In fact, they are only absurd conclusions if someone don't understand the principles of how roleplaying games work: that a game consistently makes allowances of its own rules (or, essentially it breaks its own rules) to do things outside the norm

1. A game determines its base rules. These rules are, in principle, absolute. For example: a character may never perform more than 2 maneuvers in a turn.
2. A game introduces other factors that create allowances in (or breaks) the rules under specific circumstances. For example: there are, so far, 3 methods to allow for a third maneuver in a turn, and several more that allow for out-of-turn maneuvers.

Basically, this counterargument implies that the game can't do that, even though it does. All the time.

So, in the cases we've been beating to death, Influence and Enhance (along with Manipulate and other Force powers likely to come), each have allowances that effectively allow a player to roll Force dice with a regular skill check. They do not, however, allow the player to roll Force dice when activating a talent like Scathing Tirade or Field Commander. This is because both are actions, and cannot be used together. On the other hand, Enhanced Leader is a passive talent, which allows the player to add dice to specific checks, and is not fundamentally different from the passive talents that add Boost dice to certain checks (such as Command, Quick Strike, Talker, etc.); because adding the dice is a passive ability and not an active one (in particular, not an action).

You lost me at the part where enhance allows to make take a specific extra action like piloting, because that seems the wrong order. You don't roll enhance and than make a piloting check, you make a piloting check and use enhance on it, making it a combined check instead. If the order would be using enhance as action and than being allowed to take a second specific action, you would be right. But that is not the raw which states for example:

"When making an Athletic check, the Force user may roll an Enhanced power check as part of the pool." It clearly is first check, than special rule to allow for power use as combined check. There are cases when it is indeed the other way around, like when you roll discipline on an unleash or move range attack, but " spending light/dark before resolving checks " explicitly calls even out talent use in combination and calls as well to first spend light/dark on the check before interpreting the skill check, so adding successes to make the skill check itself successful is as well definitely possible as it is explicitly mentioned.

21 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

You lost me at the part where enhance allows to make take a specific extra action like piloting, because that seems the wrong order. You don't roll enhance and than make a piloting check, you make a piloting check and use enhance on it, making it a combined check instead. If the order would be using enhance as action and than being allowed to take a second specific action, you would be right. But that is not the raw which states for example:

"When making an Athletic check, the Force user may roll an Enhanced power check as part of the pool." It clearly is first check, than special rule to allow for power use as combined check. There are cases when it is indeed the other way around, like when you roll discipline on an unleash or move range attack, but " spending light/dark before resolving checks " explicitly calls even out talent use in combination and calls as well to first spend light/dark on the check before interpreting the skill check, so adding successes to make the skill check itself successful is as well definitely possible as it is explicitly mentioned.

Actually, pretty sure I mentioned Enhance only in passing, and never mentioned Piloting.

38 minutes ago, Blackbird888 said:

Actually, pretty sure I mentioned Enhance only in passing, and never mentioned Piloting.

But your interpretation of the ruling does imply that Enhance (Piloting) can't be used with a Gain the Advantage check, for example, since that's a Piloting check as part of a Gain the Advantage Action, and not a Piloting check as part of a Piloting Check Action.

2 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

But your interpretation of the ruling does imply that Enhance (Piloting) can't be used with a Gain the Advantage check, for example, since that's a Piloting check as part of a Gain the Advantage Action, and not a Piloting check as part of a Piloting Check Action.

That is an interesting question. Technically, using Furious Greg's logic above, the answer would be NO , because Gain the Advantage is an Action and so is using Enhance (Piloting Space/Planetary, Brawl, Athletics, Resilience, Coordination) power.

It depends how you interpret making an " Enhance power check as part of the pool " when using the aforementioned skills. When in doubt, refer to the question: What is the Action?

In this case, Gain the Advantage is the Action, so technically you cannot use Enhance Piloting, since using the Force power is it's own Action. However, once you buy the ability to commit a Force die, you add committed FR"X" Green die to the pool. Perhaps the intent is to hold out until your "stronger with the force" before you can combine the ability.

Personally, I think that's a stupid way of ruling it. I don't think Vader thought as he was chasing Luke down the trench, "hrmm, I wish I could use my Force powers to gain the advantage over this young whelp. Oh well, too bad I'm already using it to Pilot better. I better get some more XP before I can use the upgraded control talent."

Yeah, I think if that's the logic of the ruling, the ruling is ill-considered.

This ruling though does explain why committing Dice is considered more powerful (it's the most expensive upgrade to reach in Enhance). At face value adding your dice to a roll and spending FP's on S/A seems much more powerful since it gives more control over success. But Committing a dice (or multiple) to Agility will have an effect on Gain the Advantage. Therefore the committed die is much more versatile in its application.

So from this I have reassessed my personal ranking of these different Force/Skill/Characteristic interactions:

1. Passive Talents that allow a combined Skill/Force Power check for Success or Advantage. (Less versatile as locked to a single skill, but biggest effect on the outcome of the checks with that skill)

2. Committed Force Dice (most versatile, but less effect on each individual dice roll)

3. Active Talents and Force Powers that allow combined Skill/Force Power checks for additional Success or Advantage. (Least Versatile, but when able to be used it can have a decent effect)

Counterpoint to that Richard:

Increasing an attribute alone is already much stronger than adding success or advantages to a roll, because the scope is so much broader and a force dice is rolling on average ~1.3 force pips if you are willing to spend strain and destiny points while a extra green dice rolls on average ~0-625 success and 0.625 advantage. So roughly equal to the force dice, but without the requirement to spend strain nor destiny, which would alone add about 8% chance for another triumph, something which imho outweighs by far the ability to gain more control over your dice results once you reach a certain proficiency in your specialisation. So you have a lot broader scope in skills, the benefit of added soak with brawn on top, added chances of triumphs in some cases, and you still can use leftover dice to enhance your skill checks further.

Overall committing to attributes is already a lot better than just boosting a rather limited range of skills. In case space combat for a star fighter pilot you basically never run even standard piloting checks, while use a lot of gunnery, gta, brilliant evasion,unmatched survivability, this one is mine, full throttle, showboat, and I am sure tons of other stuff which runs either with a special action or profits a lot more from an extra agi point instead of an extra force dice in the check.

If I understood correctly, I can not add a Force die cause I am making a talent check, not a skill check, correct?

Then, if I make a Scatching Tirade talent check and a GM adds a setback die to the pool (I am making it through comlink), I can´ not remove the setback die with a talent cause the talent that remove dice say that I remove black die from a skill check, not a talent check. Correct?

20 hours ago, NicoDavout said:

If I understood correctly, I can not add a Force die cause I am making a talent check, not a skill check, correct?

Then, if I make a Scatching Tirade talent check and a GM adds a setback die to the pool (I am making it through comlink), I can´ not remove the setback die with a talent cause the talent that remove dice say that I remove black die from a skill check, not a talent check. Correct?

Not quite, the talent is a Passive ability, therefore applies. The Influence Force Power is essentially an Active/Action ability and therefore requires an Action to use, thus excluding it from use with Scathing Tirade.

2 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

Not quite, the talent is a Passive ability, therefore applies. The Influence Force Power is essentially an Active/Action ability and therefore requires an Action to use, thus excluding it from use with Scathing Tirade.

Please, explain me once more, I am lost.

I can use Athletics force power (control upgrades) for some of my skill checks. (Note that we are doing here two actions and there is no problem as the rules allow Combined Force Check = skill check + force power.)

I can not use Influence force power (control upgrades) for Scatching Tirade and Inspire Rhetoric because although they are based on the skill checks called in the force power control upgrade, they are not skill checks but specific talent checks (although such term does not exist in the rulebook) for which the force power does not apply.

However, you answered me that the reason is that I can not do two actions. But since the rules clearly say that I can make Combined Force Check = skill check + force power, I should be able to activate that talent + force power unless the activation of the talent is not considered a skill check but a talent check. If that is so, then the passive talents do not apply cause they are for the skill checks. If you say that they apply, then the activation of the talent is a skill check and thus I can use it with force power using the Combined Force Check.

Uff. Now tell me where I am wrong and confused myself. Thank you.

Ok, first off, the way I'm describing it is the only way I have been able to interpret Sams rulings on this so far. Without him going further with his explanation this is the best I have to offer.

In chapter 6: "Conflict and Combat" of each core rule book is a section outlining each type of Action this system contains:

1. Exchange Action for a Maneuver

2. Spend an Action to activate an ability

3. Activate a Force Power

4. Perform a Skill Check

5. Perform a Combat Check

As far as I know there isn't anything in the system not on that list. Each is different, each is unique, and each is its own thing.

Next up is the talent in question, Scathing Tirade is an Active(Action) talent. It requires an Action to activate it and perform a "Scathing Tirade Action". This falls into the "Activate an Ability" Action type, even though it involves a Skill Check.

Continuing on we have the description for Influence which describes using the power when making one of the social skill checks.

Finally, and most important, is the description of the "Combined Force Power Check" on page 280-81 FaD. The first sentence of the second paragraph says "When a character combines a Force Power check with a standard skill check , they combine...

So we can put that all together to see that a Scathing Tirade is "activating an ability" whilst Influence only works with a "standard skill check". All I can assume right now is that a "standard skill check" is the separate action type of Skill Check.

why, I have no idea, it seems pointless and silly, I don't even agree with it, but this is my only possible explanation.

@Richardbuxton

Thank you :), yes I see it now, I have forgotten that there is "a Talent Check" in the rules called Activate Ability. But then I am back to what I have written earlier, I think that if you read the rules as written, I cannot use a Passive Talent for the purpose of removing a setback die from the Scatching Tirade or Inspire Rhetoric Talents because a Passive Talent it is applicable for a Skill Check and what I am doing is spending an action to activate an Ability.....because if I am doing a skill check, then I would be able to use the Influence upgrade as the rules allow to make Combined Force Check.....and we have made a full circle.

Regaredless, as a GM, I would allow to remove that setback because I believe the rules are intended to be used this way, but I also believe that Influence upgrade should be used with those two talents in question, just like Piloting + Athletics Force upgrade + Full Throttle.

Thanks again!

Well, the thing about Passive talents is that they always apply since they're always active. A player doesn't need to spend an action to "activate" them.

Hi All. Necro'ing this threat since I asked the same question to the Devs regarding combining Force Powers with certain talents such as Scathing Tirade a while back. I will assume positive intent here on the part of the Devs and say my question asked back on 2/9 was simply too convoluted and as such it was answered 'wrong'. Anyway, here is my question and answer regarding Scathing Tirade + Influence control upgrade:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Balance has been restored, but in the end .... go with whatever suits your table. Discussing the topic is good and fine, but in the end the goal of the game is not to simulate the truest representation of raw or rai, but just to have fun. There were solid arguments for both readings and now we have both readings from official site too. Pick on your table whatever suits your table best and go with it.
There is little reason to keep pestering the devs about such small details when in the end, we will all play the game how we like it anyway.

19 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

There is little reason to keep pestering the devs about such small details when in the end, we will all play the game how we like it anyway.

I certainly wouldn't classify it as pestering the Devs. But I do 100% agree, everyone should play the game at their table in the fashion that works best for the players, and not worry about the minutia too much.

I was definitely exaggerating. Though the community here in the forums, myself included, developed a little bit of an obsession about correct RAW, much more so than the developers themselves have.