4 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

I think I didn't explain myself properly. I don't think Sam is saying that using the Influence Control Upgrade requires an Action to perform. If you flip to p209 of the FaD core book you will see a list of types of actions. I think what Sam is saying is that the control upgrade can ONLY be used when you "Perform a Skill Check". Since "Spend an Action to activate an Ability" is how you use talents it excludes Influence from use with talents... seriously precise rules reading there!

So the question becomes "When is a skill check not a skill check for purposes of using certain Force Talents and Powers?"

7 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

I think I didn't explain myself properly. I don't think Sam is saying that using the Influence Control Upgrade requires an Action to perform. If you flip to p209 of the FaD core book you will see a list of types of actions. I think what Sam is saying is that the control upgrade can ONLY be used when you "Perform a Skill Check". Since "Spend an Action to activate an Ability" is how you use talents it excludes Influence from use with talents... seriously precise rules reading there!

This is a possible interpretation of his answer, but if this was his reasoning, why didn't he point out that Magnus was wrong to assume that the Control upgrade requires an action to perform?

12 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

By extension, the question could also include talents like Overwhelm Emotions or Enhanced leader. These talents are passive, and as such have no activation requirements. Would these talents be legal to use with talents such as Scathing Tirade, Field Commander, or Inspiring Rhetoric? I mean, if you can't use Enhanced Leader with Field Commander, I really can't figure out how that talent is useful at all since you can just as easily get force dice to leadership checks through the Influence tree.

I am seriously considering asking some follow-up questions to Sam on this one, but I would like to maybe get some forum feedback about what should be asked. Part of the issue is the Devs have very limited time to answer questions, so how the question is asked will make a huge impact on the answer that is received.

Perhaps one question could be:

1. When using a Talent or Force Power to "add your Force Dice to a Skill Check" does that "skill check" refer to the specific action type of "Perform a Skill Check". Or does it refer to every single time a character rolls that particular Skill?

For some more depth to the question the Peacekeeper has four specific Talents that interact in some way with Leadership:

Command, Commanding Presence, Field Commander and Enhanced Leader.

Presumably Commanding Presence allows a character to remove Setback from a Field Commander action, but does it?

Command presumably adds Boost to Field Commander, does it?

Therefore does Enhanced Leader also add Force Dice to the check?

What if the character was using the Influence Force Power?

Could you please explain the wording of each talent with your answer so it can be applied to other examples in the system?

If you read each Talents description in full and the Influence power as well they use the exact same wording, so I can only see them all applying or none applying to Field Commander. If none apply that breaks my brain, Field Commander is THE go to action for a Peacekeeper. If none of your talents apply to it then that's just crap!

I still believe the main difference is Enhanced Leader (and similar talents) are passive talents, while Influence is an action.

And, come to think of it, how the powers and talents themselves work. Field Commander and Scathing Tirade all affect multiple targets per use, whereas Influence normally targets 1 target and specifically requires you to trigger magnitude upgrades to target more than 1 target. By allowing Influence to apply talents, you are technically skipping the magnitude and possibly range upgrades, and that's a no-no. There's no such catch with Enhanced Leader, and Enhance is different because it only applies the user, not to multiple targets.

That would create an opening for Enhanced Leader which is otherwise a crap version of the Control Upgrade of Influence.

11 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

If you read each Talents description in full and the Influence power as well they use the exact same wording, so I can only see them all applying or none applying to Field Commander. If none apply that breaks my brain, Field Commander is THE go to action for a Peacekeeper. If none of your talents apply to it then that's just crap!

I think what we're seeing is that the ruling is a mistake no matter what. The ruling has to be based on one of these two lines of reasoning:

A: Influence is a Force power, Force powers require an action, and so they can't be used in the same turn as another action like Scathing Tirade

B: Influence only applies to Skill Checks (TM) and not skill checks made as part of resolving a Talent.

If A is the reasoning behind the ruling, then Force powers can never be used to add Force dice to skill checks in combat, since those require an action too. This makes Force powers that add dice to skills absurdly useless except in narrative play, and surely the devs didn't intend that.

If B is the reasoning, then as you point out, Field Commander is a terrible talent for Peacekeepers, and basically the whole Peacekeeper spec is worthless, which is obviously not what the devs intended.

So either way, there must be a mistake in the ruling.

20 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

I think what we're seeing is that the ruling is a mistake no matter what. The ruling has to be based on one of these two lines of reasoning:

A: Influence is a Force power, Force powers require an action, and so they can't be used in the same turn as another action like Scathing Tirade

B: Influence only applies to Skill Checks (TM) and not skill checks made as part of resolving a Talent.

If A is the reasoning behind the ruling, then Force powers can never be used to add Force dice to skill checks in combat, since those require an action too. This makes Force powers that add dice to skills absurdly useless except in narrative play, and surely the devs didn't intend that.

If B is the reasoning, then as you point out, Field Commander is a terrible talent for Peacekeepers, and basically the whole Peacekeeper spec is worthless, which is obviously not what the devs intended.

So either way, there must be a mistake in the ruling.

This is where my brain goes into overdrive with it all,.

13 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

I think what we're seeing is that the ruling is a mistake no matter what. The ruling has to be based on one of these two lines of reasoning:

If A is the reasoning behind the ruling, then Force powers can never be used to add Force dice to skill checks in combat, since those require an action too. This makes Force powers that add dice to skills absurdly useless except in narrative play, and surely the devs didn't intend that.

I think there's a misunderstanding here.

Generally, how game rules work (not just this one, but almost any system I've ever played), is that the games set the rules, then introduce power and gear that allow for certain exceptions to those rules. For example: The rules say you cannot do X, but there is a power/talent/item that allows you to do X, but under very certain circumstances.

As an example in this game, you cannot train skill ranks above 2 during character creation, and the rules are very firm on that. Except with Corellians, who can train Piloting to 3. Or, you absolutely cannot perform more than 2 maneuvers in a turn. Except for Unmatched Mobility, Quick Movement, and the dolina ring seeds.

If the game says you can add Force dice to a skill check, then you can. But, apparently as implied by the ruling (and in the core rulebook itself), any actions tied to talents are technically distinct from skill checks and combat checks, and thus are not compliant with the power in question.

6 minutes ago, Blackbird888 said:

If the game says you can add Force dice to a skill check, then you can. But, apparently as implied by the ruling (and in the core rulebook itself), any actions tied to talents are technically distinct from skill checks and combat checks, and thus are not compliant with the power in question.

But isn't that just the same as the "B" line of reasoning I described?

Yes, which takes us back to the question of whether or not Enhanced Leader can work with Field Commander or not.

Which, for the record, I think it can.

So I looked at the description of the Enhance Basic Power since this works in a similar fashion to the Influence control upgrade. The last sentence of this description of the Enhance power states "Remember, this counts as a normal Force power check in every way - it is simply combined with the overall skill check."

Not really sure what that adds to the conversation other than it is a 'Power check."

Still feels like the answer given on this one is lacking more context. I can't really say I know where the line is between when Force powers that add the FP to skill checks should start and where it should stop.

That note about it being a Force Power check is probably for the purpose of other game mechanics that affect those types of checks, such as One With The Universe.

I wonder if it has to do with the wording of the "Combined Force Power check" in the Force chapter

Wild speculation why the answer could be as it is does not really help. The answer is unclear, do what you think fits your table. ignore the developer answer until someone got an answer that makes sense. Besides, it would not be the first time the devs are wrong on their own system. ;-)

15 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

I wonder if it has to do with the wording of the "Combined Force Power check" in the Force chapter

That's entirely possible.

From what you've posted earlier, it sounds like Sam's answer is based upon the notion that when you're adding Force dice to a skill check, what you're generally doing is using a Force power as your action. Using a specific talent, such as Scathing Tirade or Inspiring Rhetoric, overrides it, since you're making a "Talent X" action, and many of those talents tend to start out with "Make a [name of talent] action at [insert difficulty]" in their full descriptions.

48 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

That's entirely possible.

From what you've posted earlier, it sounds like Sam's answer is based upon the notion that when you're adding Force dice to a skill check, what you're generally doing is using a Force power as your action. Using a specific talent, such as Scathing Tirade or Inspiring Rhetoric, overrides it, since you're making a "Talent X" action, and many of those talents tend to start out with "Make a [name of talent] action at [insert difficulty]" in their full descriptions.

Between the combined power check description and the answer to the question this is my take on the answer, however they have stated that unless a talent or ability states otherwise you follow the standard rules, however these abilities do say "When you make an X check you may add force dice to the roll. " as there is no qualifier on it other than "When you make an X skill check". The description about force power checks actually seems to be more geared towards other types of combined checks where you are using the talent for something other than improving the skill, one of the reasoning I have for this is that if you take the combined skill check description verbatim you cannot use the force pips gained in the roll to add success to actually help you succeed the roll, you can only use it to help you succeed further, if you fail the skill check without the aid of the force dice you then you can't use those pips as you fail the skill check in the first place. So the option to use the force dice to get success is only a win more option.

1 minute ago, syrath said:

Between the combined power check description and the answer to the question this is my take on the answer, however they have stated that unless a talent or ability states otherwise you follow the standard rules, however these abilities do say "When you make an X check you may add force dice to the roll. " as there is no qualifier on it other than "When you make an X skill check". The description about force power checks actually seems to be more geared towards other types of combined checks where you are using the talent for something other than improving the skill, one of the reasoning I have for this is that if you take the combined skill check description verbatim you cannot use the force pips gained in the roll to add success to actually help you succeed the roll, you can only use it to help you succeed further, if you fail the skill check without the aid of the force dice you then you can't use those pips as you fail the skill check in the first place. So the option to use the force dice to get success is only a win more option.

My only issue with it working that way is that for the many skills extra successes don't do anything. If I make an Athletics test all I need is one uncancelled success. It doesn't matter if I can add a dozen more with force pips.

26 minutes ago, Phlushot said:

My only issue with it working that way is that for the many skills extra successes don't do anything. If I make an Athletics test all I need is one uncancelled success. It doesn't matter if I can add a dozen more with force pips.

Exactly what I was hinting at when I said win more, but it means for those checks you would have to select advantage, but then sometimes I think that because of the number of questions they receive that they skim the questions and may misread them, and that the answer is actually and answer to another similar question that is asked frequently. To be honest I don't think that it makes sense that these only work on some checks, and it also has an additional effect on many talents to the point it makes it worthless to try and gain some of these enhance type abilities , Piloting is perhaps one of these as the majority of the best piloting actions and maneuvers are based on using the skill within the confines of can ther ability /talent /maneuver/ action, it is far from the only one.

The more I actually think about it the more I like this for, purely, balance reasons, it means that someone force sensitive can't just rely on the force to get them through, they still need skill ranks, as for having additional success it is not like failure, which in many occasions is simple failure regardless of how much (although I know there are exceptions, example fear checks), success on athletics checks can work to your advantage., it can be used to reduce time or distance travelled, reducing the need for multiple checks. The advantage is that a force user can choose for success or advantage. If you know you don't need this in advance you could choose to have the pips go to advantage (which let's you recover strain). This kind of makes sense as Jedi had to be physically fit as well as force sensitive

17 minutes ago, syrath said:

The more I actually think about it the more I like this for, purely, balance reasons, it means that someone force sensitive can't just rely on the force to get them through, they still need skill ranks, as for having additional success it is not like failure, which in many occasions is simple failure regardless of how much (although I know there are exceptions, example fear checks), success on athletics checks can work to your advantage., it can be used to reduce time or distance travelled, reducing the need for multiple checks. The advantage is that a force user can choose for success or advantage. If you know you don't need this in advance you could choose to have the pips go to advantage (which let's you recover strain). This kind of makes sense as Jedi had to be physically fit as well as force sensitive

Well, in the case of physical fitness it just encourages Jedi to commit their Force dice to Enhance their Brawn or Agility instead of rolling white dice on an Athletics or Coordination check. You can still rely on the Force to go pretty far covering for deficits in those two characteristics.

I don't know about this line of reasoning in general. If you read the passage, it says:

"the character must generate enough [FP] to activate the Force talent or Force power.... and must generate at least one uncanceled [SUCCESS] for the check to succeed"

But if a Force pip is used to generate more successes than failures, why wouldn't that count as "generating at least one uncanceled success"? It doesn't say that the uncanceled success can't come from a Force pip. The rules say "This entire process counts as making a single check."

That is a very good point , and something I didn't pick up on especially since there is no points needed to actually activate. Effectively the talent/Effect fails if the check does. This makes more sense

Yea I had been chewing on that sentence and thinking the same thing. It means you MUST spend a force pip to make the check happen, regardless of whether you needed the additional success since both the power check and the skill check are required. Which seems perfectly acceptable as a partial check to reduce how powerful the abilities that let you add force dice to your skill checks are.

OK, all, here is what I am considering for a response to Sam on this one. Feel free to offer any suggestions. My goal here is to try to keep this clear and concise.

+++

Thank you for the very prompt reply. As I consider your answer, it is generating more questions for me as I am now uncertain when a characters’ Force Dice should be added to certain skill checks and when they shouldn’t.

Can you comment on this example (using The Field Commander talent versus the Scathing Tirade talent in the original example):

Force User has Field Commander, the 15 XP Influence Talent upgrade allowing Force Dice on Leadership rolls, 1 rank of Command, one rank of Commanding Presence, and a force rating of 1.

In structured time I use an action to make a Field Commander Action. The GM rules there is one setback die added to this role due to “bad weather conditions”. What talents and powers affect this roll?

Can I use the Influence control talent to add my Force Die to this roll? If I use the same logic regarding Scathing Tirade, my interpretation would be no, you cannot use these two talents/powers in conjunction, as they each require an action and cannot be combined. Is this correct? If I am not correct, can you clarify?

Can I use one rank of Commanding Presence to remove the black die on this Leadership check? I would assume yes, as this is a passive talent. If I am not correct, can you clarify?

Can I use one rank of Command to add one blue die to this check? I would assume yes, as this is a passive talent. If I am not correct, can you clarify?

Now, what if I changed the Influence control talent to Enhanced Leader? This is a passive talent, so I would assume it could be combined with a Field Commander action. Is this correct? If not, can you clarify?

Finally, I’d like to consider these two examples:

Force User has Enhance talent that allows Force Dice added to the dice pool for Piloting Skill checks.

Character takes a Gain the Advantage Action. Can I add my Force Pool to this roll?

Character takes a Full Throttle Action. Can I add my Force Poll to this roll?

+++

That seems well worded, I think it hits all the right questions and hopefully entices Sam to explain the reasons.