3 minutes ago, Phlushot said:

No I'm talking about Hawkbat Swoop and Essential Kill. Hawkbat is an action which adds my force dice to a lightsaber check. Essential Kill is a passive which allows me to add my force dice to non-Gunnery combat skill checks (so lightsaber in this case). Both allow me to spend force pips generated in different ways.

Which tree is essential kill.

1 minute ago, syrath said:

Which tree is essential kill.

Executioner, bottom tier, 2nd column.

4 minutes ago, Phlushot said:

Executioner, bottom tier, 2nd column.

This allows you to add dice as part of the check, so this was covered in an dev Q&A you could use only one or the other and not both, once you sdd your dice as part of the roll for hawkbat those dice are not available for use in essential kill as they have already been "commited" for that check so you. So if you have FR 4 and have 2 committed to sense then you call on hawkbat swoop you use those 2 dice on hawkbat, you have none for essential kill, now if it was a separate check for whatever reason, you could use them again for essential kill (but not hawkbat swoop). What isnt in the rules is that you cant split them (covered in a few Q&A now). While you might not like the order66 podcast the devs do answer rules questions on them when they are on(usually about the book they are on about). This rule has also been answered several times consistently by people asking support.

On 2 August 2016 at 10:08 PM, Richardbuxton said:

Question:

Can multiple talents that require a combat check combined with a force power check be performed at the same time? As an example using the Executioners Essential Kill talent at the same time as Saber Throw? In this situation I imagine you only ever roll your force dice once, but can choose to spend any of the Force Pips on either talents effects. so perhaps a character rolls 3 pips and chooses to spend 2 on Saber throw, then the third on Essential Kill to gain an additional advantage. I completely understand that 2 Talents that require specific and different skills (eg Hawk Bat Swoop and Draw Closer) could not be used at the same time due to the different skills involved. But some don't specify a specific skill.

Answer from Sam Stewart:

No

I think this is the answer your looking for.

1 hour ago, Richardbuxton said:

I think this is the answer your looking for.

Fair enough, really wish they would be a little more verbose though since there's nothing in the rules that I can see to back up their answer (I get that they're the guys writing it).

I think Sam's ruling on this is idiotic. I understand not being able to use the basic power of Influence in the same action as Scathing Tirade, but the control upgrade that applies to skill checks should still apply to talents that make use of those skill checks.

Generally my ruling on hbs and Essential Kill is you add your force dice and choose to spend the pips on one, the other or both.

Meaning you roll 6 pips 2 dark 4 light you have 6 pips to split between the two powers.

5 hours ago, syrath said:

When a character combines a Force power check with a standard skill check , he combines the Force Die he would roll to make the Force power check with the dice he would roll to make the skill check. RELEVANT powers and talents specifically state when a combined chck should take place.... ( now this part is interesting). ....Unless specifically stated otherwise , the character must generate enough pips to activate the force talent or force powers basic power AND must generate at least one uncancelled success for the check to succeed.

Now if this is the ruling that applies jn this case it is even worse because someone with enhance brawl and no ranks in brawl would still need to succeed their attack without the benefits of the force dice before they could use the force pips to add success and advantage , if they fail the basic skill check they get nothing.

Edit though these powers state - When making a skill check so it doesnt work the way Sam says RAW.

I know what you're saying. However, in the case of Brawl , where adding w/b pips can add success or advantage to the roll, the source of the uncancelled success can come from either the Force die or the Skill ranks. So if you rolled YYGGWW-PPand generated 2 fails, 3 advantage and 3 white pips, you can convert the 3 white pips to successes (as per the Force power), giving you a net score of 1 success and 3 advantage.

The key word in the above rule is for the CHECK to succeed, you need uncancelled successes. Some force powers add success/adv when you roll the Force dice e.g. Enhance .

To break it down: Unless specifically stated otherwise, the character must generate enough pips to activate the force talent or force powers basic power ( in the case of Brawl that would be any w/b pips ) AND must generate at least one uncancelled success for the check to succeed ( which can be generated from the w/b pips or the uncancelled successes in the yellow/green dice .)

In contrast, a skill like Unleash/Move/Mind Trick , where the force die are rolled in conjunction with the skill check - exactly as described above - you need to succeed on the skill check and roll enough pips to activate the power. This is because the force die don't function independently like they do with Brawl . It's important not to confuse both situations.

The problem with the ruling is simple.

F&D characters use Force powers like enhance and Influence to offset the weakness of not being able to spend as much xp on skills and get as many dedications as other characters.

When using talents it was fairly balanced due to the lower stats and skills of a F&D character.

8 hours ago, Blackbird888 said:

What it probably boils down to is how they separate actions in structured time. Starting on p. 209 (F&D), it lists types of actions, in order, "exchange an action for a maneuver," "spend an action to activate an ability," "activate a Force power," "perform a skill check," and "perform an action."

Again, talents are unique from skill checks. A chase check would fall under a skill check (although chase rules are a little different from standard structured encounters either way). Gain the Advantage is fishy, but if you are spending an action to do something worthless like Gain the Advantage, you have other problems.

Any pilot not using Gain the Advantage does deserve to get his licence revolved, the advantage of GtA is far too greater after the FAQ addition to that action. ;-) Next thing you tell me people don't use double evasive when they can't prevent someone shooting at them via GtA. And even outside of the arc dodge ability of GtA, it would usually negate 4 pool upgrades on your own shot, 2 from your own evasive and two from your opponents evasive, so even in that case GtA would be rather strong.

Besides and back to topic, as all those checks are actions, your argument about not allowing the combined force power / skill check is super odd.

Sams answer was definitely lacking, and I can see reasons to not allow Force Dice in certain Talent based Actions for balancing reasons

Hi Richard, you mention not using it for balance reasons, the only one I can think of is scathing tirade, and as I pointers out earlier an FS character spending less XP on just the influence tree itself can do 4 times the amount of strain damage at longer range and better consistency than they could with Scathing Tirade

4 hours ago, masterstrider said:

I know what you're saying. However, in the case of Brawl , where adding w/b pips can add success or advantage to the roll, the source of the uncancelled success can come from either the Force die or the Skill ranks. So if you rolled YYGGWW-PPand generated 2 fails, 3 advantage and 3 white pips, you can convert the 3 white pips to successes (as per the Force power), giving you a net score of 1 success and 3 advantage.

The key word in the above rule is for the CHECK to succeed, you need uncancelled successes. Some force powers add success/adv when you roll the Force dice e.g. Enhance .

To break it down: Unless specifically stated otherwise, the character must generate enough pips to activate the force talent or force powers basic power ( in the case of Brawl that would be any w/b pips ) AND must generate at least one uncancelled success for the check to succeed ( which can be generated from the w/b pips or the uncancelled successes in the yellow/green dice .)

In contrast, a skill like Unleash/Move/Mind Trick , where the force die are rolled in conjunction with the skill check - exactly as described above - you need to succeed on the skill check and roll enough pips to activate the power. This is because the force die don't function independently like they do with Brawl . It's important not to confuse both situations.

Yes, I know and this is also how I would work it. It is however the way combined checks are designed in the book.

43 minutes ago, syrath said:

Hi Richard, you mention not using it for balance reasons, the only one I can think of is scathing tirade, and as I pointers out earlier an FS character spending less XP on just the influence tree itself can do 4 times the amount of strain damage at longer range and better consistency than they could with Scathing Tirade

It's more things like Inspiring Rhetoric, Field Commander, Discredit, Interjection, Bad Motivator etc.

In those instances Success and Advantage can have a large impact on the outcome, added Force Dice then can tip the balance significantly.

So the problem I can see for FFG is how to differentiate between the Talents that it would be ok to use with the Force , and those talents that would benefit significantly. The simplest solution is don't allow any of it at all.

Does this ruling mean that you can never use Enhance to add Force dice to a Brawl attack in combat, since that would require taking both an Attack action and an Enhance power action?

That seems to follow from the logic of the ruling.

Note that in the case of Scathing Tirade, if you've purchased all the Scathing Tirade talents you can use ST as a maneuver, so ST could still be combined with an Influence power action if you used both your action and maneuver on it.

Also, in combat, performing a skill check normally requires an action. So this ruling essentially means that Force dice can never be added to skill checks made in combat.

The ruling is insane.

11 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

Does this ruling mean that you can never use Enhance to add Force dice to a Brawl attack in combat, since that would require taking both an Attack action and an Enhance power action?

That seems to follow from the logic of the ruling.

I think the thing that's key to all of this is:

Are you performing a Skill Check or using a Talent that involves a Skill Check .

If you are just performing a Skill Check then you can combine it with the Force Power (or Talent such as Enhanced Leader) that adds your Force Dice to the pool.

But if your using a Talent (Such as Field Commander) that includes a Skill Check then you can't add your Force Dice...

sounds crazy to me, I can certainly see many groups ignoring that ruling.

2 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

I think the thing that's key to all of this is:

Are you performing a Skill Check or using a Talent that involves a Skill Check .

If you are just performing a Skill Check then you can combine it with the Force Power (or Talent such as Enhanced Leader) that adds your Force Dice to the pool.

But if your using a Talent (Such as Field Commander) that includes a Skill Check then you can't add your Force Dice...

sounds crazy to me, I can certainly see many groups ignoring that ruling.

I feel like that is the implication of the way the question is asked, but I don't see any reason why the logic of the answer would not apply to other actions besides actions to activate Talents.

Because a "Skill Check" is a different action to "using a Talent which involves a Skill Check"

The talents always say something like "Take the Field Commander Action". The only way I can figure out this situation is if that is therefore different to the action Perform A Skill Check.

7 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

Because a "Skill Check" is a different action to "using a Talent which involves a Skill Check"

The talents always say something like "Take the Field Commander Action". The only way I can figure out this situation is if that is therefore different to the action Perform A Skill Check.

That may be the intention behind the answer, but if so, the intention doesn't match the logic of the answer.

Think back to the original question: " the base rules for using Force powers indicates they require an Action to use in structured time unless otherwise stated (p. 282 of F&D). The Control talent description just states "...the user may roll an influence power check as part of the pool…" with no qualifier that would trump the basic rule. "

Doesn't the same reasoning apply to any action that isn't part of a talent?

The logic of the question is: Both Scathing Tirade and (by the basic rules) Influence require an action. So they can't be used together in the same turn.

Applying that exact same logic: Both Making a SKill Check and Influence require an action. So they can't be used together in the same turn.

It's possible that when he said " Generally, no, they cannot be combined," Sam intended to say "No, they can't be combined, but not for the reason you suggest in the question. They can't be combined because Scathing Tirade is a talent, and you can't use talents together with Influence." But if that's what he meant to say, one would've expected him to elaborate on that rather than just saying "The answer is no."

By extension, the question could also include talents like Overwhelm Emotions or Enhanced leader. These talents are passive, and as such have no activation requirements. Would these talents be legal to use with talents such as Scathing Tirade, Field Commander, or Inspiring Rhetoric? I mean, if you can't use Enhanced Leader with Field Commander, I really can't figure out how that talent is useful at all since you can just as easily get force dice to leadership checks through the Influence tree.

I am seriously considering asking some follow-up questions to Sam on this one, but I would like to maybe get some forum feedback about what should be asked. Part of the issue is the Devs have very limited time to answer questions, so how the question is asked will make a huge impact on the answer that is received.

4 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

That may be the intention behind the answer, but if so, the intention doesn't match the logic of the answer.

Think back to the original question: " the base rules for using Force powers indicates they require an Action to use in structured time unless otherwise stated (p. 282 of F&D). The Control talent description just states "...the user may roll an influence power check as part of the pool…" with no qualifier that would trump the basic rule. "

Doesn't the same reasoning apply to any action that isn't part of a talent?

The logic of the question is: Both Scathing Tirade and (by the basic rules) Influence require an action. So they can't be used together in the same turn.

Applying that exact same logic: Both Making a SKill Check and Influence require an action. So they can't be used together in the same turn.

The power is making an allowance for the character to do something that would normally not be allowed.

Or, perhaps, you are still just performing a Force power action, but the Force power is combined with a skill check in this usage, and is technically distinct from the "perform a skill check action."

I think I didn't explain myself properly. I don't think Sam is saying that using the Influence Control Upgrade requires an Action to perform. If you flip to p209 of the FaD core book you will see a list of types of actions. I think what Sam is saying is that the control upgrade can ONLY be used when you "Perform a Skill Check". Since "Spend an Action to activate an Ability" is how you use talents it excludes Influence from use with talents... seriously precise rules reading there!