So, let's start with the idea that this is a rather insane build, OK? I will probably never field it, but the parts are interesting.

IDS II - anti-squadron, 2 Blue Dice

Agent Kallus - While attacking a unique squadron, add 1 die of any color to your attack pool.

Veteran Gunners - While attacking, you may exhaust this card to reroll all dice in my attack pool.

Quad laser Turrets - While defending at distance 1, if the attacker is a squadron, you have COUNTER 1.

Leading Shots - While attacking, you may spend 1 blue die to reroll any number of dice in your attack pool.

Dual Turbolaser Turrets - While attacking, you may exhaust this card to add 1 red die to your attack pool. If you do, remove 1 die from the attack pool.

Stop me if I get something wrong.

If I attack a Unique squadron, I roll 2 blue dice. "Add to pool" happens after the initial roll, so I get to see my results before I decide what to add with Kallus. For the sake of argument, I choose black, and roll it.

I tap Dual Turbolaser Turrets, and roll a red die into my pool. I am required to remove one die from my pool, but I can't find anything that says I have to do so NOW. So, I will tap Veteran Gunners to reroll all my dice (two blue, one red, one black) and, because the Dice Gods hate me, I will then spend one blue di to reroll the remaining blue, red and black dice. At this point, I will select one die to remove from the pool, IAW Dual Turbolaser Turrets.

Does this seem to be a correct (if possibly unwise) procedure? Can anyone think of additional tomfoolery that could be applied to attacking a squadron?

That is not correct. You have to resolve all the effects in one upgrade to begin resolving another.

Therefore, when you use Dual Turbolaser Turrets, after you add the red die, you must remove one die from the pool before moving to the next effect

14 minutes ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

You have to resolve all the effects in one upgrade to begin resolving another.

I've been looking for a rule that says this. Can you point me at it?

I agree, common sense would say to finish one before moving on to the other, but this is a logical place to interrupt, and I can't find an official forbiddance.

6 minutes ago, JgzMan said:

I've been looking for a rule that says this. Can you point me at it?

I agree, common sense would say to finish one before moving on to the other, but this is a logical place to interrupt, and I can't find an official forbiddance.

You have a rule that says otherwise?

Just now, Drasnighta said:

You have a rule that says otherwise?

If I did, I wouldn't be asking.

Then Common Sense should Prevail.

Also, Reference the *at least two* subjects on the matter. I'm getting you links now. (Wait for Edit )

There is also a Third, more Recent one as well... But I leave that for you to find.

Essentially: There's no Rule saying there is one way or the other... One breaks the Logical Flow of things, and has a potential to trigger other issues. The other way doesn't have any issues whatsoever. In the absense of that, utilise the Common Sense.

It has a place in rules - a very specific place. That place is, when there is two interpretations of a rule, and they are not equally valid - as per here. Unlike, for example, the Rapid Launch Bay debacle, where both interpretations are at least semi-valid in their own regards.

And I'm sure I'll cop some crap for coming back to the Rules forum, even for this...

Thanks for the links. Nothing really authoritative in them. (well, you and the Alder God are pretty well respected as authorities)

My issue is that while I usually would require a card's effect to be completely executed before the next one, this one can reasonably be broken into two parts, and there's no really good argument against it. You mention "issues," and if they existed, those are a passably good argument (see your argument in the case of "zero command dials") but that's RAW vs RAI. I need to understand both in order to wrangle my group.

So, for the moment, there's no actual RULE against it. I really hope they put "one card at a time" into the FAQ, because I'm gonna have to lean on your interpretation until they do.

Find a card interaction where doing only one part of it, and not the other, is unfair.

Most of them, are a hit to you - so you wouldn't do it anyway...

But its not Unique wording.

MANY upgrade cards have "If you do" on them.

I mean, Ruthless Strategists has an "If you do". You'd probably want to be resolving that all in one go. And not having your opponent have a chance to interrupt you...

Not taking the card as it is fully written, is akin to:

Ignoring the Restriction on Minister Tua (Double Defensive ISD!) - because you just didn't get to it yet, or, "I'll resolve it later."

Using Fire Control to resolve the same Crit Twice. (Double APT!) - because, again, you just didn't get to it yet.

The "There's no rule against it" defense is otherwise known as the "Eat Your Dog." defense.

Don't use it.

Not when you have a viable, sensible alternative.

And if your gaming group - as a group - won't accept that, because they prefer the "Eat your Dog" defense... I am honestly flabbergasted that it continues as a group.. and, y'knw, plays more than just Chess... >.> I mean, I don't want to disparage it, and I am sure its not as bad as it sounds - but on the face of it, that'd be CRAZY to try to interact with...

So here's hoping for the best for you, Man

9 minutes ago, JgzMan said:

Thanks for the links. Nothing really authoritative in them. (well, you and the Alder God are pretty well respected as authorities)

My issue is that while I usually would require a card's effect to be completely executed before the next one, this one can reasonably be broken into two parts, and there's no really good argument against it. You mention "issues," and if they existed, those are a passably good argument (see your argument in the case of "zero command dials") but that's RAW vs RAI. I need to understand both in order to wrangle my group.

So, for the moment, there's no actual RULE against it. I really hope they put "one card at a time" into the FAQ, because I'm gonna have to lean on your interpretation until they do.

Since when can you decide to split the card text? What about using JJ? I'll just take my yaw, and after I move I'll take my damage because I want to see where my ship ends up and the ranges so I know which arc is vulnerable.

You don't get to cherry pick the card text.

By your logic of "There is no rule against it", the RRG says: "A player can look at his ships’ facedown command dials at any time. When a player looks at a ship’s command dials, he must preserve the order in which the command dials are stacked." Therefore, a female player can look at her opponents command dials. There is no restriction on the female gender from looking at command dials, or manipulating them.

2 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

MANY upgrade cards have "If you do" on them.

10 cards include "If you do."

All three Fleet Commands and Intel Officer implicitly require or allow you to split the card.

• Intel officer has you select a defence token after rolling the dice. The "If you do" effect doesn't kick in until after you perform the Modify Dice step, and the other player performs his "Spend Defence Tokens" step.
• Fleet commands have you spend a token or discard a card, and the "If you do" effect happens several times over the rest of the turn, interrupted by various actions, and the other player's turn.
• Admiral Ackbar allows you to call broadsides before your attack step. The "If you do" function kicks in immediately for the first attack, but then it kicks in again for the second. The action is interrupted by the first attack.

Ruthless Strategists, Ten Numb, Biggs Darklighter and Zertik Strom all use the "If you do" phrasing. I see no reason I couldn't interrupt myself, but there is really nothing to do in the space; everything I can think of that I might consider doing ends the part of the turn that I have to finish in, or makes no difference. Ten Numb, for example: "While attacking a squadron, I may spend 1 blue die with a [CRIT] icon. If I do, each other squadron at distance 1 of the defender suffers 1 damage" I can't think of anything I can do between rolling the dice, and ending his attack. I can't go on to another squadron, because that ends Ten Numb's action.

Ahsoka Tano is the only one that seems even slightly troublesome, and honestly, not very troublesome. "During the activation of a friendly ship at distance 1-5, you may exhaust this card to discard 1 command token from that ship. If you do, that ship may gain 1 command token of any type." If allowed to interrupt, I could pull a command token off a ship at the start of it's activation, and then put one back on at the end. The worst thing I can see doing with this would be to activate a command-1 ship, use Ahsoka to discard it's existing command token, spend the dial for a token, spend the token, then use Tano to give it a token, and spend that one as well. I could, by this method, allow a command 1 ship to use two tokens in one turn, by sacrificing the dial. That would be odd, but it's hardly broken. It's actually disadvantageous to me to do that.

So, after actually looking at the cards, and considering the implications, I can't see a single thing wrong with allowing an action to be split along the "if you do" line.

2 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

I mean, Ruthless Strategists has an "If you do". You'd probably want to be resolving that all in one go. And not having your opponent have a chance to interrupt you...

With what? My opponent doesn't get to do things on my turn unless it's explicitly called out on the card. If he did have such a card, then this would be a great time to use it.

2 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Not taking the card as it is fully written, is akin to:

Ignoring the Restriction on Minister Tua (Double Defensive ISD!) - because you just didn't get to it yet, or, "I'll resolve it later."

Using Fire Control to resolve the same Crit Twice. (Double APT!) - because, again, you just didn't get to it yet.

That's wrong and you know it. In both of those cases, you are explicitly violating what the card says to do (or to not do), while I am doing everything the card instructs me to do, and nothing that I am instructed to not do.

2 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

The "There's no rule against it" defense is otherwise known as the "Eat Your Dog." defense.

And the "eat your dog" defence is another way of saying, "I can't explain why you can't do that."

I'm not proposing anything outside the scope of the game. I'm not proposing anything that will break functionality. I'm not proposing anything that is counter to common sense, without common sense on the other side as well. I'm proposing to do everything I'm instructed to do, and to not do anything I'm forbidden to do.

2 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

Since when can you decide to split the card text?

Since the card text came in two separate bits.

2 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

What about using JJ? I'll just take my yaw, and after I move I'll take my damage because I want to see where my ship ends up and the ranges so I know which arc is vulnerable.

You might want to re-read the card. You can certainly project your course before taking the damage. You cannot, of course, move, decide you don't like it, and then move back, undo the damage, and move again. (unless you're in a friendly game) See page 11, "Ship Movement" step 2, bullet point 5.

2 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

You don't get to cherry pick the card text.

Who's cherry picking? I'm doing everything the card tells me to do.

2 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

And if your gaming group - as a group - won't accept that, because they prefer the "Eat your Dog" defense... I am honestly flabbergasted that it continues as a group.. and, y'knw, plays more than just Chess... >.> I mean, I don't want to disparage it, and I am sure its not as bad as it sounds - but on the face of it, that'd be CRAZY to try to interact with...

You would be AMAZED. Half of us are rules lawyers of the worst sort, the other half like party games. I'm a rules lawyer, as you can probably tell, but I understand that there is a balance between what the rules SAY and what the rules MEAN. Not everything has to be written down, but if a good argument can be made for permitting something the rules don't forbid, we will put it to a vote.

I was hoping you guys could come up with a good argument against this, but you haven't yet. In fact, you pushed me into making what I consider to be a good argument for the other side.

Don't get me wrong; I fully expect FFG to slap this one down, if they can ever be bothered to answer any more rules questions. But until they do, I have no grounds to forbid it. We will have to vote on it.

Just because the can of worms doesn't exist now , doesn't mean its not worth factoring in to the equation.

Because, in most cases, the group of people (in my experience) will put it to a vote, make the decision, and then not change it in light of new information .

Future Proof, Man.
FFG Does it.

Check the Corellian Conflict Rulebook on Hyperspace Retreat for that very "proof"

But other than that, i cannot help you.

This Rules Forum, cannot help you.

Only you can help yourself.

It is Dangerous to go Alone. Here is a Kitten. I give you to, the best of luck, my friend.

1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

It is Dangerous to go Alone. Here is a Kitten. I give you to, the best of luck, my friend.

Awwww. You gave the kid in green a sword. How come I just get a kitten?

Because Swords Don't Make Themselves!

Cats Do! When they're left to their Own Devices... More Cats!

SO, DAMMIT, KITTENS FOR YOU!

4 minutes ago, JgzMan said:

You might want to re-read the card. You can certainly project your course before taking the damage. You cannot, of course, move, decide you don't like it, and then move back, undo the damage, and move again. (unless you're in a friendly game) See page 11, "Ship Movement" step 2, bullet point 5.

I never said take back a move. I said take damage " I'll take my damage because I want to see where my ship ends up and the ranges so I know which arc is vulnerable."

So you declare JJ, move, and then take the damage on the arc that won't be threatened.

Just now, Undeadguy said:

I never said take back a move. I said take damage " I'll take my damage because I want to see where my ship ends up and the ranges so I know which arc is vulnerable."

So you declare JJ, move, and then take the damage on the arc that won't be threatened.

Ah, I see what you mean.

I wouldn't allow that on the basis that you are doing things out of order. "...it may suffer one damage to change the first yaw value..." You can't change the yaw value unless you have taken the damage. The logical structure of the statement doesn't allow for delays. To be fair, that's sort of subjective, but it's pretty clear to me that you do X to do Y. The Turbolasers I'm asking about say "You may do X. If you do, you must do Y." I'm proposing to do X. I will do Y. I seem to in compliance.

It's the "If you do" construction that makes me think that the delay is permitted. If you read the first part of my really quite long post, you will see that in every other case of the construction, things happen between doing X and doing Y. For the moment, I am under the impression that the "If you do" construction exists in order to allow the splitting. They could just as easily said "then."

We must not confuse things:

To trigger an effect is not to resolve it or, to be more precise, is not to do it actually.

We have examples in defense tokens. You spend redirect and brace but you don't redirect until the damage is being dealed. Engine techs are triggered while resolving a navigate command what is resolved during determine course step and you don't resolve the speed 1 maneuver until you resolve the "first" determine course step. The words "if you do" don't change in any way that you are resolving the entire upgrade effect. A part of this effect come up later sometimes if the effect says it does as redirect or command fleet upgrades already say.

Effect use and timing p5 RUG

If two or more of a player’s effects have the same timing,
that player can resolve those effects in any order.

You can resolve those effects in any order but you can't insert those effects between them. So you resolve DTT before any other effect if you choose DTT first. It would be different if DTT would say "if you do, remove 1 die front your attack pool DURING MODIFYING DICE STEP". Then you could resolve other effects before resolving the delayed effective of DTT.

Maybe I don't clarify a **** but I least I tried. XD

2 hours ago, JgzMan said:

Awwww. You gave the kid in green a sword. How come I just get a kitten?

Simple. You don't need a sword to be dangerous.

This is not MTG where you can stack effects and combos. And where you have to build up a stack of effects and resolve it in reverse order.

This is a simple, partial casual, game. There are a lot of keywords missing in the rulebook. One of these is the phrase "resolve". Card Effects are resolved fully when they trigger. No stop, no interrupt no instant. Just resolve the effect completely (if possible).
And this rule is even easier as it is in X-Wing, where you can start effect chains as well (Push the Limit, Experimental Interface, ...).

I can only think of one minor timing where an effect can be interrupted to do something else. And this Engine Techs + G-8. There might be others, but this is the only one i can find right now. But even here, the effect is interrupted by another effect. Not by yourself. And it clearly gives a trigger for the interrupt ( Before an enemy ship at distance 1-5 resolves the Determine Course step,... ).

All Fighters, Follow me!; Entrapment Formation! and Shields to Maximum! are all fully resolved when they trigger. They just give a permanent Effekt that will trigger if the condition is given. Same with Ackbar. You are not going back and doing the effect again. And all 4 cards have the wording: " this round ", to show you that these are temporary effects. You do not find this wording ( this round ) on the Dual Turbolaser Turrets.

All other cards (Ahsoka Tano, Dual Turbolaser Turrets, Ruthless Strategists, Ten Numb, Biggs Darklighter, Zerik Strom) are just fully resolved when you use the effect (or better when they trigger). The wording "if you do" just show that you can choose if you want to use the effect. You "may" do something, and if you did it, you get the effect.

If you want do start discussions about this "basically" basic rules, you will have no fun when it comes to the complex rules. And your opponents will not have fun either. There is no rule that you can split effects. And there is as well no rule that you cannot do it. Same as there is no rule that you are not allowed to just change your shields back to maximum. You will find nothing in the rules that forbid you to change the shields whenever you want to. Same as there is no rule that allows you to do it. I know, it a bit far of from your example.

But if you want something else to discuss about missing basic rules, than answer me this: " how often you are allowed to use the effect of All Fighters, Follow me! in one turn ".
With a quote from the rule for it.

1 hour ago, Tokra said:

Card Effects are resolved fully when they trigger. No stop, no interrupt no instant. Just resolve the effect completely (if possible).

Can you support that? Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but as you can see above, I have plenty of examples where you have to interrupt the resolution of a card effect to do other things.

1 hour ago, Tokra said:

All Fighters, Follow me!; Entrapment Formation! and Shields to Maximum! are all fully resolved when they trigger. They just give a permanent Effekt that will trigger if the condition is given.

Do they? Then why not Dual Turbolasers? Gives me an effect that I must discard a die from the pool.

1 hour ago, Tokra said:

And all 4 cards have the wording: " this round ", to show you that these are temporary effects. You do not find this wording ( this round ) on the Dual Turbolaser Turrets.

That's a passably good argument, and I might be persuaded to lean on it. However, I would observe that the phrase "this round" is required to tell you how long the effect lasts. Dual Turbolasers have an inherent window where the effect must occur; at the end of the attack, the pool goes away, and if I haven't discarded a die, I have violated the instructions on the card.

1 hour ago, Tokra said:

The wording "if you do" just show that you can choose if you want to use the effect.

No it isn't. The word "may" is used to indicate something is optional. The word "then" is used to indicate that you must do the first part before you do the second part; that construction is fairly common. The phrase "if you do" creates a logical break in the action, but also includes the dependency of "then."

1 hour ago, Tokra said:

If you want do start discussions about this "basically" basic rules, you will have no fun when it comes to the complex rules. And your opponents will not have fun either.

No editorials please. Let's stick to the rules.

1 hour ago, Tokra said:

You will find nothing in the rules that forbid you to change the shields whenever you want to. Same as there is no rule that allows you to do it.

There are rules that tell you when you are to change your shield dials. We may safely assume that you can't change them otherwise. There is not, however, a rule telling you how to resolve a card, and weather you can stick one into the middle of another.

1 hour ago, Tokra said:

" how often you are allowed to use the effect of All Fighters, Follow me! in one turn "

An interesting question. The card says "each squadron that a friendly ship activates." It's unclear weather "a" is intended to be an enumeration, which would mean "one ship," or if it is an indefinite article, indicating a non specified member of a group, which would mean "any ship." I note that "Shields to Maximum" also uses "a" instead of "each."

I would say that this is sloppy wording on the part of FFG, because Fleet Commands are intended to be all-ship bonuses. However, I can certainly see the argument that that's not what the card actually says.

I can't quote a line from the book at you. I can, however, point to Jan Ors. "While a friendly squadron at distance 1-2 is defending, it can spend your defense tokens." There, it very likely does not mean to limit you to one use per turn. Ketsu Onya, Biggs, Captain Jonus, and Baron Fel all use "a" in the same way, and I doubt quite highly that it it intended to be singular.

As a counter-point, however, Maj. Rhymer does NOT say "When a friendly squadron at range 1," but instead says "Friendly squadrons at range 1."

So, the appeal to other cards isn't great, but it's the best I've got.

I found this from the RRG p5

Each effect in the game has a timing during which it can
resolve. This timing is usually specified within the effect,
though some effects use the more specific timing described
in this section.

What I see here us there are other timings that are not "when", "while", etc.

Is "If you do" a timing? I am not sure but it could so any time you add the red die you must resolve the "remove part".

Obviously we have anything definitive but:

1. There is not a single card that you don't resolve at once.

2 . We have cards with delayed effects as engine techs, command fleets upgrades and we have the defense token too.

3. We have cards with conditional effects that don't came up until the condition occur. Intel officer, Ruthless strategist or DTT.

But 2 and 3 don't mean you are not resolving the upgrade or pausing it. You resolve the entire card in order to set the condition. When the condition took place you do what the upgrade say you must do.

So, IMHO when you resolve DTT yob resolve it at once in order to set a condition. The condition say that if you add the die you must remove a die and you do it whenever the condition took place and no later. Imagine if I choose to resolve the upgrade. I exhaust the card but I choose to not add a red die (Could I? I am not sure but we know that we can resolve commands and don't use their effects so why not?). I set the condition but as long as the condition doesn't occur I don't have to remove a die.

I really think we don't need a FAQ about this but I know I can't go beyond this point so if is not enough I can't do more and the best would be to ask ffg directly.

38 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

I exhaust the card but I choose to not add a red die (Could I? I am not sure but we know that we can resolve commands and don't use their effects so why not?).

I would say that it is not an option. Exhausting the card is optional, but it says "exhaust this card to add..." and to me, that is a linked series of events. Do this, then do that.

Commands are different from card effects, and I would be hesitant to apply the same rules to them. That said, 3 of the four commands you can fully resolve, while, in practical terms, not doing anything. Navigation allows you to increase or decrease your speed, and increase your yaw; you can choose to keep your speed the same, and simply not use the additional yaw, and you're fully in compliance. Squadron allows you to activate "up to" a number of squadrons; you could activate zero and be in compliance. Engineering grants you Engineering points, and you "may spend them," but that is optional. Only Concentrate Fire has a mandatory effect. You can "spend" the dial, but you don't actualy resolve the command until your attack step. If you chose not to attack, then you wouldn't really have resolved the command.

47 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

The condition say that if you add the die you must remove a die and you do it whenever the condition took place and no later.

This (and the bits before it) is a pretty good argument. It allows the "if you do" construction to be used consistently throughout the game, and I currently cannot see an example of not performing the "if you do" action as soon as the condition is met.

I could still see the other argument, and I wouldn't be TERRIBLY surprised if the increasingly mythical FAQ ruled the way I was thinking originally, but until they do, this interpretation is solid.

I agree with the Dark Sheep:

The only timing of DTT is "While attacking"; everything listed in that card is considered to be a single effect with that timing. In other words, "If you do" is not a timing instruction, it's the equivalent of "and", but conditional to the previous sentence.

Note that the RRG says:

If two or more of a player’s effects have the same timing,
that player can resolve those effects in any order .

"In any order" is decidedly not the same as "simultaneously"! It necessarily implies that all effects sharing a trigger (in this case "while attacking") are dealt with one after the other.

It's the same story for comand fleet upgrades:

" At the start of the Ship Phase , you may discard this card or spend a [Squadron] token. If you do, until the end of the round , the speed of each squadron that a friendly ship activates is increased by 1, to a maximum of 5, until the end of that squadron's activation."

The card is triggered at the start of the Ship Phase, and its effect begins immediately and lasts until the end of the round. (A sub-effect happens when a squadron is activated and lasts until the end of that squadron's activation. Other "when a squadron is activated" effects can be resolved before or after this one, at the player's discretion.)

21 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

I agree with the Dark Sheep:

The only timing of DTT is "While attacking"; everything listed in that card is considered to be a single effect with that timing. In other words, "If you do" is not a timing instruction, it's the equivalent of "and", but conditional to the previous sentence.

Note that the RRG says:

If two or more of a player’s effects have the same timing,
that player can resolve those effects in any order .

"In any order" is decidedly not the same as "simultaneously"! It necessarily implies that all effects sharing a trigger (in this case "while attacking") are dealt with one after the other.

It's the same story for comand fleet upgrades:

" At the start of the Ship Phase , you may discard this card or spend a [Squadron] token. If you do, until the end of the round , the speed of each squadron that a friendly ship activates is increased by 1, to a maximum of 5, until the end of that squadron's activation."

The card is triggered at the start of the Ship Phase, and its effect begins immediately and lasts until the end of the round. (A sub-effect happens when a squadron is activated and lasts until the end of that squadron's activation. Other "when a squadron is activated" effects can be resolved before or after this one, at the player's discretion.)

Thank you. I too agree with the sheepcaster, but couldn't figure a better way to put it. This is that better way.

In unrelated news, I tried messaging you a bit ago and couldn't. Is your inbox full?

18 minutes ago, JgzMan said:

I would say that it is not an option. Exhausting the card is optional, but it says "exhaust this card to add..." and to me, that is a linked series of events. Do this, then do that.

I agree with you on this but then we end that if do this then do that is mandatory then the DTT is mandatory so no leading shots before removing. The solution is solid and I think it doesn't find any contradiction with any existing card so let's play with that.

**** it! How gratifying is to have a debate about rules in which we do not **** each other!

Sometimes, Black Sheep, your use of profanity really confuses me...

3 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Thank you. I too agree with the sheepcaster, but couldn't figure a better way to put it. This is that better way.

I couldn't too but I did my best whith the things I was trying to put together and my "marvelous" knowledge of English XD