Don't think it is our top priority right now, but a lot of these issues are alleviated if there is a change to how regen works. I think you should only be capable of regenerating 1 shield above the lowest shield value you have had within the game. But, now isn't the time to do that considering there are much bigger boogie monsters out there than rebel regen.

3 minutes ago, Timathius said:

LOL ok, I see you are the best X-Winger ever and only you can see the truth that the game is absolutely perfect and all these other people are nahbs who just aren't leet enough to beat these lists.

But, just for fun please realize that big ships can regen too. So your entire argument right now is baseless and you are coming off like an elitist. Worse, an elitist who doesn't fully understand what he is talking about.

You're completely ignoring a point i already made; Quantity. Large ships have more hitpoints. Thus, while Corran only needs to regen 2 shields to be back over half health, even at 1 hull(which is only 2 rounds), a Falcon needs to regen A LOT of shields. Way more than 2 rounds worth of shields. Additionally, the only means of large base regen also carries the possibility of flipping a damage card. It is way, way, WAY harder for a large ship to regen above half health, and the threshold where that becomes impossible is much higher as well.

Oh, wait, what am i even talking about, Crew2-D2 only regenerates if there aren't any shields on the ship. It's impossible for a Falcon to regen above half.

Seem to have kicked a hornet's nest here...

Let's try this: Convince me that Miranda does not deserve to lose 1/2 points but a Generic U-wing does. Corran isn't going to take much a hit either way.

I am changing my vote to only applying 1/2 MOV to PWT. YT's, Decimators, K-wings, and Jumpmasters.

9 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

You're completely ignoring a point i already made; Quantity. Large ships have more hitpoints. Thus, while Corran only needs to regen 2 shields to be back over half health, even at 1 hull(which is only 2 rounds), a Falcon needs to regen A LOT of shields. Way more than 2 rounds worth of shields. Additionally, the only means of large base regen also carries the possibility of flipping a damage card. It is way, way, WAY harder for a large ship to regen above half health, and the threshold where that becomes impossible is much higher as well.

Miranda has as much/ more health vs some large base ships.... Rebel regen also only accounts for a small percentage of points fortress small based ships. Even then, just because they CAN regen back up doesn't make it any less odd that a half health dash is somehow worth points than a one health quadruple critted K-wing slamming around the map is worth 0. Dash is clearly still in the fight and can do something, the K-wing is out of the fight and is fleeing for its life.

Once again, not saying big ships shouldn't have half points. only that Small ships should be worth something when heavily damaged.

1 hour ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

Not being able to kill Miranda is your fault, not theirs. You had FENN RAU, PLUS another 3 attack ship. They had a 1 agility ship at PS 8(lower than Fenn Rau). You were more than capable of wearing them down. You didn't, meaning you got outflown. Own your loss, don't blame "point fortressing" for your loss.

I was simply pointing out that small-base point fortresses are as annoying as large-base ones. If the rule is warranted, it should be across the board, not based on the size of the base. Both his k-wings were individually worth more than any single one of my 3 ships, yet two of mine were "half point" eligible.

Personally, I'd be in favor of no half-points at all, with only actual kills being worth something, but right now only certain ships are considered for this rule based on the size of their plastic base.

1 minute ago, gamblertuba said:

Seem to have kicked a hornet's nest here...

Let's try this: Convince me that Miranda does not deserve to lose 1/2 points but a Generic U-wing does. Corran isn't going to take much a hit either way.

I am changing my vote to only applying 1/2 MOV to PWT. YT's, Decimators, K-wings, and Jumpmasters.

What about ships like the Ghost, though? They very much should get half points for them. And, again, generic K-Wings get worse for no reason. Like, forget Miranda. Why are you punishing Special Ks but letting the freaking Ghost of all ships get away with point fortressing?

It just doesnt make any sense.

Just now, drjkel said:

I was simply pointing out that small-base point fortresses are as annoying as large-base ones. If the rule is warranted, it should be across the board, not based on the size of the base. Both his k-wings were individually worth more than any single one of my 3 ships, yet two of mine were "half point" eligible.

Personally, I'd be in favor of no half-points at all, with only actual kills being worth something, but right now only certain ships are considered for this rule based on the size of their plastic base.

Now here's someone who was definitely not around during Wave 5.

Trust me, dude. Theres a really, really good reason why Large Ships give half MOV and small ships don't.

12 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

You're completely ignoring a point i already made; Quantity. Large ships have more hitpoints. Thus, while Corran only needs to regen 2 shields to be back over half health, even at 1 hull(which is only 2 rounds), a Falcon needs to regen A LOT of shields. Way more than 2 rounds worth of shields. Additionally, the only means of large base regen also carries the possibility of flipping a damage card. It is way, way, WAY harder for a large ship to regen above half health, and the threshold where that becomes impossible is much higher as well.

Oh, wait, what am i even talking about, Crew2-D2 only regenerates if there aren't any shields on the ship. It's impossible for a Falcon to regen above half.

Uh what...

Falcon is at 6 hull. Regens shield. is above half............. Dude its just embarrassing now.

5 minutes ago, Timathius said:

Uh what...

Falcon is at 6 hull. Regens shield. is above half............. Dude its just embarassing now.

DO ONE MORE DAMAGE. Oh my god, you are making it so ******* difficult to not get a warning point for what i want to say to you. Whereas Corran needs only regen 2 shields at 1 hull to avoid half points, once the falcon is 5 hull or below, you're getting half points for it. THATS WHY. HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS.

Like seriously, dude. Unlike Corran who can run away and regen, the Falcon actually needs to be damaged again before it can regen. If it's at 6 hull and regens 1 shield, if you do 2 points of damage at any point after, you can just run for the hills and tank damage until you win. You couldn't do that with Corran. Either way, you HAVE TO KILL HIM.

Never get a job doing Game Design. You are clearly incapable of considering balance.

10 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

DO ONE MORE DAMAGE. Oh my god, you are making it so ******* difficult to not get a warning point for what i want to say to you. Whereas Corran needs only regen 2 shields at 1 hull to avoid half points, once the falcon is 5 hull or below, you're getting half points for it. THATS WHY. HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS.

LOL. Don't let the fact that you forgot basic math for a second cloud the issue. You said " It's impossible for a Falcon to regen above half." you were wrong. Dude you are trying so hard to argue for no reason which is why i'm pointing out the reasons you are wrong.

I was agreeing that large based ships should give half. I was just adding that ALL small based ships should give some points for being heavily damaged, not as much as large based ships though.

You seemed to latch onto rebel regen, then you were proven wrong that miranda would be able to reliably regen her way back to above half (why this is a counter argument at all still eludes me).

Now you are fixating on Corran as your lord and savior for regen being the reason why ALL small based ships shouldn't give up points for being below half "Corran needs only regen 2 shields at 1 hull to avoid half points" which (once again) can't understand how this is your end all be all counter argument. Are you saying that rebel regen would then be broken? Or are you saying that rebel regen is the only type of small based points fortress in the game? I am honestly confused.

11 minutes ago, Timathius said:

LOL. Don't let the fact that you forgot basic math for a second cloud the issue. You said " It's impossible for a Falcon to regen above half." you were wrong. Dude you are trying so hard to argue for no reason which is why i'm pointing out the reasons you are wrong.

I was agreeing that large based ships should give half. I was just adding that ALL small based ships should give some points for being heavily damaged, not as much as large based ships though.

You seemed to latch onto rebel regen, then you were proven wrong that miranda would be able to reliably regen her way back to above half (why this is a counter argument at all still eludes me).

Now you are fixating on Corran as your lord and savior for regen being the reason why ALL small based ships shouldn't give up points for being below half "Corran needs only regen 2 shields at 1 hull to avoid half points" which (once again) can't understand how this is your end all be all counter argument. Are you saying that rebel regen would then be broken? Or are you saying that rebel regen is the only type of small based points fortress in the game? I am honestly confused.

Oh cool, so i mis-typed, meaning i'm i'm wrong and stupid and can't do math. Nice! That really lends legitimacy to your arguments when your only debate method is the good-old ad hominem.

My problem is that half MOV either encourages regen or cheese tactics. If you do it by hull+shields, regen ships never give up any MOV; if you do it by hull, then Kylo and the like become much more popular. That might be a reasonable loss, but it's something to consider.

Just now, Razgriz25thinf said:

Oh cool, so i mis-typed, meaning i'm i'm wrong and stupid and can't do math. Nice! That really lends legitimacy to your arguments when you're only debate method is the good-old ad hominem.

Mis-typed? no, you were just wrong. Life will go a lot easier when you can admit that to yourself and move on. My arguments have been pretty clear and I have been attempting to engage in a dialogue, but you seem to not read/ reply to any of the criticisms or questions that could actually prove your point wrong. Instead you say "git gud" and then move on. I personally detest that attitude which is why I trolled you for a bit there. I apologize for that and the tone I used. But, honestly would like answers to my above questions, because I really can't understand how rebel regen somehow negates giving points for small based ships. They account for two astromech droids, a crew and a pilot in one of three different factions. All of which have pretty solid balancing features.

4 minutes ago, Timathius said:

Mis-typed? no, you were just wrong. Life will go a lot easier when you can admit that to yourself and move on. My arguments have been pretty clear and I have been attempting to engage in a dialogue, but you seem to not read/ reply to any of the criticisms or questions that could actually prove your point wrong. Instead you say "git gud" and then move on. I personally detest that attitude which is why I trolled you for a bit there. I apologize for that and the tone I used. But, honestly would like answers to my above questions, because I really can't understand how rebel regen somehow negates giving points for small based ships. They account for two astromech droids, a crew and a pilot in one of three different factions. All of which have pretty solid balancing features.

Yeah, mis-typed. Obviously at the very threshold of 6 hull it can regen above, but not any lower. Whereas with Corran and Miranda, there is no threshold. They can regen up from any point and still retain half health, whereas with the Falcon it has a hard limit where it is guaranteed to lose half points.

And, yeah, because get good is the answer. Ya'll are just trying to weasel the rules into letting you win games you should lose by any other right, because you don't like some stuff. I've gone rather heavily into detail about which ships that inordinately punishes, which ships get way better, and which ships it won't affect whatsoever and why. Incidentally the entire argument was started over a ship that this rule change affects the least. And i've done so at the request of multiple individuals. Don't accuse me of not reading when that is clearly the one thing you aren't doing.

5 minutes ago, Ailowynn said:

My problem is that half MOV either encourages regen or cheese tactics. If you do it by hull+shields, regen ships never give up any MOV; if you do it by hull, then Kylo and the like become much more popular. That might be a reasonable loss, but it's something to consider.

Eh, the problem I see is that they happen already and to a worse degree than they could in this case. Slow play and refusing to engage happen all the time now.

Perhaps I am wrong. but I do see a space in the rules for small based ships, when heavily damaged, to give up some sort of points. Once again, not as much as large based ships, but something.

Just now, Timathius said:

Eh, the problem I see is that they happen already and to a worse degree than they could in this case. Slow play and refusing to engage happen all the time now.

Perhaps I am wrong. but I do see a space in the rules for small based ships, when heavily damaged, to give up some sort of points. Once again, not as much as large based ships, but something.

That's literally always been the case. If you think it's bad now, i urge you, go through the archives and take a look at some X-Wing games from around Wave 5. Fat Han strategy was kill a TIE Fighter and spend the entire game running away, something that wasn't possible once the half-hull MOV rule came into effect. If you make this change, that becomes possible again, as you could kill or half hull enough small ships that you'll win on MOV even if you lose half your health.

8 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

Yeah, mis-typed. Obviously at the very threshold of 6 hull it can regen above, but not any lower. Whereas with Corran and Miranda, there is no threshold. They can regen up from any point and still retain half health, whereas with the Falcon it has a hard limit where it is guaranteed to lose half points.

And, yeah, because get good is the answer. Ya'll are just trying to weasel the rules into letting you win games you should lose by any other right, because you don't like some stuff. I've gone rather heavily into detail about which ships that inordinately punishes, which ships get way better, and which ships it won't affect whatsoever and why. Incidentally the entire argument was started over a ship that this rule change affects the least. And i've done so at the request of multiple individuals. Don't accuse me of not reading when that is clearly the one thing you aren't doing.

So, by your logic, we shouldn't have switched to half points for large based ships in the first place. Because "Ya'll are just trying to weasel the rules into letting you win games you should lose by any other right, because you don't like some stuff"...

"That's literally always been the case. If you think it's bad now, i urge you, go through the archives and take a look at some X-Wing games from around Wave 5. Fat Han strategy was kill a TIE Fighter and spend the entire game running away, something that wasn't possible once the half-hull MOV rule came into effect. If you make this change, that becomes possible again, as you could kill or half hull enough small ships that you'll win on MOV even if you lose half your health. "

And Miranda killing one ship and running is different how?

I'm done, some people just want to argue to feel better about themselves. Hope it helps to pretend you are right!

OK how about some new ideas.

First on the assumption that the system is going to basically stay as is. Change it to for half damage on large ships you would gain half of the value of the base ship not including upgrades and such. The ship would have to be destroyed to gain the value of the upgrades.

I like the idea of all ships getting the half damage rule, but using the above mentioned idea. In addition for regen ships(remember it is really easier to get half damage on many small ships.) once you get to a point where they are half damage you get the points, even if they do regen. Again using it with the above rule on upgrades. So Poe gets to half damage at 3 you would get half his base value, but not the upgrades unless he is destroyed. So you get 17 points, for a basic 3 damage. In the case of a Decimator with the admiral you would get 23 points at half value. I have not had a chance to test out the system, it is just an idea for thought.

One of the problems to consider is that not all potential regen ships regen, not everyone flies R2D@ or R5P9 on a regen ship. The only pure regen is Miranda.

I think it would be fine if we scored half points on all large ships, and all small ships costing 33 points or more, the first time they're brought to the half damage threshold.

That is certainly an idea. Seems a bit hard to streamline though, and could see the return of fat big ships since they are able to sometimes double their points cost with upgrades.

Half-points for Large ships was a horrible, horrible kludge for "Large-Boost is too good, allowing arc-dodging and ranging away from retaliation fire, almost exclusively a problem with turreted ships."

Never mind that half-MoV effectively killed the non-Palp Lambda, the Firespray, and the non-Zuckuss YV-666, none of which were anything even approaching a problem.

But it fell right in line with FFG's philosophy of "easiest possible change, no matter how otherwise bad."

Half-MoV for Small ship would just take a terrible change and bizarrely apply it across the board. Unbelievably bad idea.

Yeah, half-MoV should be revoked, and replaced with a fix for Large-Boost.

1 hour ago, librarian101 said:

One of the problems to consider is that not all potential regen ships regen, not everyone flies R2D@ or R5P9 on a regen ship. The only pure regen is Miranda.

The way I see it, Miranda's regen is conditional at the same rate that R2-D2 astromech is. Once per round, at most, you get a shield back, but only if the conditions are right. You can't always take green maneuvers (ionized, or near the board edge) and you can't always attack (out of range, weapons disabled), so they're not guaranteed. I'd argue that R2-D2 is more reliable regen, actually.

But I don't see regen alone as the reason why we should consider half points for some small ships.

Consider free evade tokens. Mechanically, an evade token works exactly like a temporary shield token. Once per round, a TIE/x7 Defender gets one free shield (of a sort) if it meets a certain condition. It's not shield regen, but it's certainly a form of renewable shielding/armor. So I don't think we should pick on Miranda when there are Defenders shrugging off tons of damage in a slightly different way.

52 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Half-points for Large ships was a horrible, horrible kludge for "Large-Boost is too good, allowing arc-dodging and ranging away from retaliation fire, almost exclusively a problem with turreted ships."

Never mind that half-MoV effectively killed the non-Palp Lambda, the Firespray, and the non-Zuckuss YV-666, none of which were anything even approaching a problem.

But it fell right in line with FFG's philosophy of "easiest possible change, no matter how otherwise bad."

Half-MoV for Small ship would just take a terrible change and bizarrely apply it across the board. Unbelievably bad idea.

Yeah, half-MoV should be revoked, and replaced with a fix for Large-Boost.

I see this a lot when this discussion comes up, and I just don't get it.

-The lambda is a flying coffin. It only survives by being such a low priority that your opponent never gets around to killing it before they lose. Half points will almost never come up

-Non-zuckuss YV-666s are not seen because when you can use your three crew slots to mitigate the downside of continual Zuckuss use (Loss of actions), there is no reason not to take Zuckuss.

-The Firespray is just an awkward ship. It can't mitigate damage the way an ARC-dodging PWT or Ace can*, but it's too expensive to use as a sacrificial piece. Add in the wave 7+ power creep, and it just fell by the wayside.

*Technically, Boba Fett can. For one turn. If he can get into range one of multiple enemy ships. That's a lot of conditions.

While i agree large base boost should be fixed rather than have half health mov , squark is correct

Removing half mov does not at all address the real problem with rarely seen large ships, namely that theyre either grosslyinefficient or, in the lambdas case, have literally the worst dial in the game (which is more of a feature, really, palps just necessary because palp is disgusting)

7 minutes ago, Squark said:

I see this a lot when this discussion comes up, and I just don't get it.

[Stuff.]

All of that has elements of truth. And yet, all three were flown -- and with significant frequency and success -- before the half-MoV nerf.