1 minute ago, Nickel said:

I like the idea of giving half points for all ships. Everybody's MOV would better reflect how the player actually performed in each match.

That is also fair.

3 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Not really, because half-damaging two ships instead of destroying one ship is ****, strategy-wise. It punishes players who've been able to force their opponent's to switch targets fruitlessly.

Exactly. Smart tactics go out the window with this change. It's actually disadvantageous now to do something that has long been considered the best possible thing you can force an opponent to do. Good play and strategem become liabilities compared to being able to just throw a lot of dice.

Essentially, you guys want Wave 1 meta but like, way, way worse. TIE Swarms become the best lists in the game simply because they throw a lot of dice and they're all under the magical number, so you don't get half points for half-hulling them, and even if that was a thing, cool, you get a whole 6 points per TIE, compared to the 13 points JUST for one half of a Red Squadron Veteran.

3 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

So you want to make Regen, considered to be one of the most annoying gameplay elements available, even better? And you want to make ships that could have, at some point, been buffed to see use, never leave the dusty cabinet?

What????????????????

How would applying the 1/2 MOV rule to more ships make regen ships better? Those ships were already worth full MOV no matter what health they had.

What ships am I hurting? If anything, the ships that need help getting out of the cabinet come in under 30 points and would be unaffected.

If i were to change this, i would make the 1/2 points rule apply only to pwts (including small pwts lets say), because i don't see why u wing should have a different treatment than b wing.

2 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

How would applying the 1/2 MOV rule to more ships make regen ships better? Those ships were already worth full MOV no matter what health they had.

What ships am I hurting? If anything, the ships that need help getting out of the cabinet come in under 30 points and would be unaffected.

If you regen up past your half-health value, you don't get half points for them. Ships like Corran and Miranda you have to actually kill in order to get points for them, cause Miranda can regen all shields, even at 1 hull, and still be above her half health mark. Corran MUST die, because more than 50% of his health is shields. Regen strategy changes exactly not at all. But you significantly hurt low-agility, high HP ships that take damage really easily and significantly buff high-agility, low-HP ships which don't. This makes the vast majority of Rebel craft worse in every measurable way. It becomes demonstrably harder to win with Rebels just because the point measuring is inherently against you.

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

sure as hell doesn't sound like it if you cannot comprehend the very simple reason we have half MOV for large base ships only

If you want I can find my 2013 regional standing sheet if you'd like.

Ah, so if I have a differing opinion than a forum mastermind, I am wrong. Sorry, but I tend to disagree with half of your off shot ramblings any how. You can mark this as one of those times.

I personally always felt half points only affecting large ships was heavy handed and wasn't quite the fix that was needed to help balance the ships. But I do feel like people taking risks with smaller ships should also be penalized just as a large base.

Just because we disagree doesn't mean either of us are wrong or gives the right to insult the other. It's a public forum, differing opinions are bountiful. Try to remember that.

4 minutes ago, Hujoe Bigs said:

If you want I can find my 2013 regional standing sheet if you'd like.

Ah, so if I have a differing opinion than a forum mastermind, I am wrong. Sorry, but I tend to disagree with half of your off shot ramblings any how. You can mark this as one of those times.

I personally always felt half points only affecting large ships was heavy handed and wasn't quite the fix that was needed to help balance the ships. But I do feel like people taking risks with smaller ships should also be penalized just as a large base.

Just because we disagree doesn't mean either of us are wrong or gives the right to insult the other. It's a public forum, differing opinions are bountiful. Try to remember that.

uh huh

even when presented in a roundabout manner, your condescending attitude isn't any less obvious

2 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

If you regen up past your half-health value, you don't get half points for them. Regen strategy changes exactly not at all. But you significantly hurt low-agility, high HP ships that take damage really easily and significantly buff high-agility, low-HP ships which don't. This makes the vast majority of Rebel craft worse in every measurable way. It becomes demonstrably harder to win with Rebels just because the point measuring is inherently against you.

Yeah, this is right at the nub of it. A B-Wing will give up half points A LOT but a TIE Interceptor rarely will. It materially affects the balance of power between ships in a way that wasn't considered when those ships are costed/statted.

Far better to remove some of the importance of MOV, which is a flawed tiebreaker anyway.

So what about small ships being worth 1/4 points at half health? I know that its a pretty arbitrary number, but I do agree that some sort of points should be given for taking OL soontir, Fenn, miranda, Corran or any other arc dodgy points fortress should be worth something. The goal being to reduce running in circles away from your opponent at the end of a match. I have seen it happen for 30 minutes so they can win by one point, and is definitely not a fun experience.

Just now, Timathius said:

So what about small ships being worth 1/4 points at half health? I know that its a pretty arbitrary number, but I do agree that some sort of points should be given for taking OL soontir, Fenn, miranda, Corran or any other arc dodgy points fortress should be worth something. The goal being to reduce running in circles away from your opponent at the end of a match. I have seen it happen for 30 minutes so they can win by one point, and is definitely not a fun experience.

...

*sigh*

"If you regen up past your half-health value, you don't get half points for them. Ships like Corran and Miranda you have to actually kill in order to get points for them, cause Miranda can regen all shields, even at 1 hull, and still be above her half health mark. Corran MUST die, because more than 50% of his health is shields. Regen strategy changes exactly not at all. But you significantly hurt low-agility, high HP ships that take damage really easily and significantly buff high-agility, low-HP ships which don't. This makes the vast majority of Rebel craft worse in every measurable way. It becomes demonstrably harder to win with Rebels just because the point measuring is inherently against you."

5 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Yeah, this is right at the nub of it. A B-Wing will give up half points A LOT but a TIE Interceptor rarely will. It materially affects the balance of power between ships in a way that wasn't considered when those ships are costed/statted.

Far better to remove some of the importance of MOV, which is a flawed tiebreaker anyway.

But a 30pt B-wing isn't really a thing anyway?

11 minutes ago, Zura said:

If i were to change this, i would make the 1/2 points rule apply only to pwts (including small pwts lets say), because i don't see why u wing should have a different treatment than b wing.

I'm on board with this.

4 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

uh huh

even when presented in a roundabout manner, your condescending attitude isn't any less obvious

I honestly wasn't trying to hide it. Are you trying to say with that post count you don't fall into those categories? But we've had this conversation in the past. So, no reason to rehash it. I'll just leave it as is.

I will side on the error of caution that small bases might not need 1/2 points but some kinda of penalty to MoV for taking half damage might be interesting to say the least.

1 hour ago, Criwi Romed said:

slowly widdling down her opponent.

Whittling.

1 minute ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

...

*sigh*

"If you regen up past your half-health value, you don't get half points for them. Ships like Corran and Miranda you have to actually kill in order to get points for them, cause Miranda can regen all shields, even at 1 hull, and still be above her half health mark. Corran MUST die, because more than 50% of his health is shields. Regen strategy changes exactly not at all. But you significantly hurt low-agility, high HP ships that take damage really easily and significantly buff high-agility, low-HP ships which don't. This makes the vast majority of Rebel craft worse in every measurable way. It becomes demonstrably harder to win with Rebels just because the point measuring is inherently against you."

Yes and no, they only regen one shield a turn. So its actually pretty simple to keep them stagnant at the end of the game. but just not kill them off.

Just now, Timathius said:

Yes and no, they only regen one shield a turn. So its actually pretty simple to keep them stagnant at the end of the game. but just not kill them off.

I've seen plenty of top tables with regeneration that could barely stay above being destroyed, while running, to say this would affect regeneration more than people believe. A Miranda below half would not be able to just run the clock on the other side. If she wanted to get back to half, she would either have to engage at pristine times, or go for the kill.

7 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

But a 30pt B-wing isn't really a thing anyway?

I'm on board with this.

Keyan? Ten Numb? B-Wings with cannons? Non-Miranda K-Wings? Non-Norra ARC-170s? Non-Poe T-70s? High PS X-Wings?

All of those go bye-bye. Along with the diversity of the meta with them.

6 minutes ago, Timathius said:

Yes and no, they only regen one shield a turn. So its actually pretty simple to keep them stagnant at the end of the game. but just not kill them off.

Corran runs away anyways, and as has been discussed, K-Wings are pretty decent in the mobility department. It could easily be done. Then you'd take to the forums and complain about Miranda some more.

Just admit it; Not being able to kill Miranda and get points is your fault for faulty tactics and list-building, not the MOV system.

4 minutes ago, Hujoe Bigs said:

I honestly wasn't trying to hide it. Are you trying to say with that post count you don't fall into those categories? But we've had this conversation in the past. So, no reason to rehash it. I'll just leave it as is.

I will side on the error of caution that small bases might not need 1/2 points but some kinda of penalty to MoV for taking half damage might be interesting to say the least.

we have?

sorry, you havn't left an impression in that regard but I'll keep an eye out

anyway, there is no side to err on

half MOV was necessary to curb the rather stupid effectiveness of points fortressing on incredible fast and almost impossibly difficult to catch high PS large base ships

the change allowed a far more varied meta where you still saw large ships, despite the drop in effectiveness inflicted onto them by this ruling change

there is no logical basis to suggest a change in the way these things are scored, least of all if you wish to quit point fortressing on small ships due to some of the most potent fortresses can regenerate back up past half health regardless

doing anything to affect this system without first addressing large base mobility cannot result in a positive outcome

2 minutes ago, Hujoe Bigs said:

I've seen plenty of top tables with regeneration that could barely stay above being destroyed, while running, to say this would affect regeneration more than people believe. A Miranda below half would not be able to just run the clock on the other side. If she wanted to get back to half, she would either have to engage at pristine times, or go for the kill.

I agree that 1/2 points does not help regen ships. Corran and Miranda currently count as full (50ish) points regardless of remaining health. If they have to regen at game end, they have to slow down and would be much more vulnerable to being killed outright.

What is RazGriz putting on a Red Squaddie to put them over 30 points?

PTL, R2 Astro, IA. A rather basic Red Squadron Veteran build. I flew 2 with Poe in tournaments and did rather well with them. But i can name several games that i would not have won if this ruling were in effect, despite my superior maneuvering, just because of half points on a RSV.

The crux of this is that Half-points on large ships was a thing because they were just objectively superior to most small ships. This brought them more in line balance-wise. The second you apply half points to ALL ships, you just get the same exact original problem; Large ships and small ships suffer from the same thing, and since Large ships are objectively superior once again, you get the identical problem.

Nothing about this change makes any sense whatsoever. Luckily FFG knows this, and hasn't done this.

11 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

Keyan? Ten Numb? B-Wings with cannons? Non-Miranda K-Wings? Non-Norra ARC-170s? Non-Poe T-70s? High PS X-Wings?

All of those go bye-bye. Along with the diversity of the meta with them.

Corran runs away anyways, and as has been discussed, K-Wings are pretty decent in the mobility department. It could easily be done. Then you'd take to the forums and complain about Miranda some more.

Just admit it; Not being able to kill Miranda and get points is your fault for faulty tactics and list-building, not the MOV system.

I am not complaining about anything as I beat these lists with regularity. I also use Miranda myself quite often and feel bad when my opponent flew right and had dice fail him in a kill box or something similar allowing Miranda to escape. Same thing with Corran, you can plan all you want but if he rolls natural evades 3 times in a row when you have double stressed him and escapes with one health, and they keep up the pressure just enough to keep him at one health but lose because they have 46 points left and you have a 48 point one health Corran when time is called that seems pretty stupid to me.

You can try and put the fault on the player all you want. To some extent its even true, but this is a dice game so that argument really falls flat in the end. Small ships should give up SOMETHING for being below half, but of course not as much as big ships.

4 minutes ago, Timathius said:

I am not complaining about anything as I beat these lists with regularity. I also use Miranda myself quite often and feel bad when my opponent flew right and had dice fail him in a kill box or something similar allowing Miranda to escape. Same thing with Corran, you can plan all you want but if he rolls natural evades 3 times in a row when you have double stressed him and escapes with one health, and they keep up the pressure just enough to keep him at one health but lose because they have 46 points left and you have a 48 point one health Corran when time is called that seems pretty stupid to me.

You can try and put the fault on the player all you want. To some extent its even true, but this is a dice game so that argument really falls flat in the end. Small ships should give up SOMETHING for being below half, but of course not as much as big ships.

Dice can be mitigated in the list-building phase. Choosing to not equip upgrades or fly ships that can counter such phenomena is a choice, and the events of the game are the reckoning of those choices.

3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

there is no logical basis to suggest a change in the way these things are scored, least of all if you wish to quit point fortressing on small ships due to some of the most potent fortresses can regenerate back up past half health regardless

doing anything to affect this system without first addressing large base mobility cannot result in a positive outcome

So let's take Miranda out of the equation right now. It's not nessarily all about her. Defenders are great at soaking up damage late game even if they took a beating, same with many of the pocket aces and more potent point sinks (phantoms). It is also not rare for fangs (Fenn and Old T) to come out of a fire fight smoking but still in the fight. So rebels aren't the only one capable of fortresses the end game. If anything a small change in MoV might actually help rebels. It might tighten up the "meta" for some builds, but as a whole, it might make rebels a bigger threat due to it.

Yes, some people hate regen (personally my only gripe about the game, and that's mostly due to rebels being the only one with reliable forms of it) but it is still part of the game, and if you can harness it to help sneak out a win that isn't nessarily a bad thing.

But like I said, often times, Miranda or corran are pretty beat up by the end of the game, and are trying desperately to get the Regen they need. Miranda at least would have to engage more regularly. So I don't think it would tip the scales in an absurd fashion in the slightest. I do, however, believe it would help stop the amount of people getting perfect games or inflating their MoV by just skirting the battle when, even though they might have more points than their opponent on the table, they are in a fight that is most definitely not in their favor.

In the end, the likely hood of this happening is close to nil.

Just now, Razgriz25thinf said:

Dice can be mitigated in the list-building phase. Choosing to not equip upgrades or fly ships that can counter such phenomena is a choice, and the events of the game are the reckoning of those choices.

Thank you for making my point. mitigated is the keyword here. Mitigated- make less severe, serious, or painful. Emphasis mine. You can make them more relaible, but not account for them entirely.

3 minutes ago, Timathius said:

Thank you for making my point. mitigated is the keyword here. Mitigated- make less severe, serious, or painful. Emphasis mine. You can make them more relaible, but not account for them entirely.

Ok, and? If you've done all you can and still lost, you weren't capable enough, or you were meant to lose. Deal with it.

Another, ANOTHER problem with this is that people just simply want to restrict the meta to only the **** that they like. That's wack. Don't like Corran, or Miranda? Just make a rule that eliminates them from the meta! Problem solved!

No! Either develop a strategy to win, or learn to accept losing. The thing with this isn't like with Phantoms, because there was nothing that could reasonably counter them. It is possible to win against these things, many people do with regularity. Thus, whatever it is that is causing you to lose is your fault. Has to be.

4 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

Ok, and? If you've done all you can and still lost, you weren't capable of doing enough, or you were meant to lose. Deal with it.

LOL ok, I see you are the best X-Winger ever and only you can see the truth that the game is absolutely perfect and all these other people are nahbs who just aren't leet enough to beat these lists.

But, just for fun please realize that big ships can regen too. So your entire argument right now is baseless and you are coming off like an elitist. Worse, an elitist who doesn't fully understand what he is talking about.

This was a discussion based on a hypothetical way to deal with point fortress small ships. You denying they are a problem and then basing your argument on false/bad/ naive pretenses isn't helping anything