6 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I was just thinking of this. Yavaris double tapping 3 B-Wings with 2 BCC and Toryn will yield around 23 damage, and 29 damage with Norra, but that is also 6 damage not going to the hull.

B-Wings are slow, and can only manage a hefty speed 3, which means their range is quite small. And for Yavaris to double tap, those squads are not moving. And you have initiative, so once those squads get into range, you can just kill Yavaris (you must be at meduim or long range because those squads aren't moving, which means they are at medium at the farthest) and dip out going speed 3.

What I don't get is, how do you lose an ISD when:

1. You have initiative.
2. You see the threat range of the Yavaris love tap.
3. You will be at medium-long range of Yavaris if you decide to suicide in.
4. Even with Flight Commander, you can get the jump on Yavaris OR the B-Wings. Going speed 3, Yavaris will be far away from the B-Wings which means you can attack them, or go for Yavaris since there will be no B-Wings to protect her.

Two instances of Fighter Cord Teams: You can move the Bwings up at Speed 4.

@Undeadguy the threat range isn't yavaris medium + 1(squadron range) but yavaris medium after movement + 1(fct) + 1(fct) + 1(squadron range).

flight commander + fighter coordination teams means yavaris gets to move and slide b-wings. The pleta also has fct so thats another +1 move. The pelta with andar tallon means the third b-wing will be in range even though it only gets 1 fct move.

Didn't we already have like 3 threads on this very topic in living memory? (aka within the last 30 days)

1 minute ago, Eggzavier said:

Didn't we already have like 3 threads on this very topic in living memory? (aka within the last 30 days)

I got tired of people being snarky or snide laughing about it.

This is how you beat the list it's not broken or overpowered it's just a good solid list.

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 393/400

Commander: Moff Jerjerrod

Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Intel Sweep

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points)
- Demolisher ( 10 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 83 total ship cost

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- Impetuous ( 4 points)
- Agent Kallus ( 3 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Flechette Torpedoes ( 3 points)
= 58 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Moff Jerjerrod ( 23 points)
= 46 total ship cost

Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 144 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
= 23 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
= 23 total ship cost

2 TIE Fighter Squadrons ( 16 points)

6 activations you out activate him bring the raider in then during squadron phase possistion the ties to cove the raider, light up that fighter ball with raider use the gonzontis Flack to help stack up more damage and you can also use ISD flack as well ISD is very good at taking out gr-75s and demo for good measure.

2 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Two instances of Fighter Cord Teams: You can move the Bwings up at Speed 4.

2 minutes ago, mythics said:

@Undeadguy the threat range isn't yavaris medium + 1(squadron range) but yavaris medium after movement + 1(fct) + 1(fct) + 1(squadron range).

flight commander + fighter coordination teams means yavaris gets to move and slide b-wings. The pleta also has fct so thats another +1 move. The pelta with andar tallon means the third b-wing will be in range even though it only gets 1 fct move.

Ah didn't catch the FCT on the Pelta. That does widen the threat range quite a bit, but also means the fleet is going to be bunched up so you can get both FCT off and keep Yavaris at range of the B-Wings. I still think having initiative will offset the threat range of the B-Wings.

1 minute ago, Undeadguy said:

Ah didn't catch the FCT on the Pelta. That does widen the threat range quite a bit, but also means the fleet is going to be bunched up so you can get both FCT off and keep Yavaris at range of the B-Wings. I still think having initiative will offset the threat range of the B-Wings.

Also its double FCT. since Speed1 is longer than both speed 3 and 4 , If I remember, that means those Bwings are effectively even more than speed4, more like speed5. And heck, the two Ywings are speed 3, add 2 FCT, are literally faster than speed5.

1 minute ago, Blail Blerg said:

Also its double FCT. since Speed1 is longer than both speed 3 and 4 , If I remember, that means those Bwings are effectively even more than speed4, more like speed5. And heck, the two Ywings are speed 3, add 2 FCT, are literally faster than speed5.

Great, but my MC30 is there for one turn only and so the first FCT is meaningless as it has to activate before I do. Dropping a GR75 drops the activation count, and suddenly the list starts to fall apart.

Listen to mythics. You cant rush all your ships at it, one at a time put an MC30 in harms way going at speed 4 at the end of a turn, then sprint it out at speed 4. If he wants to chase you down he can, however in doing so you can dodge his squadrons for the rest of the game, whilst your other speed 4 MC30s drop in 1 at a time to blast everything to death.

9 minutes ago, shmitty said:

This is the best explanation I have seen of why this fleet is dominating locally, but not elsewhere. We do not have a frontal charge meta locally. I do it occasionally for fun, but most of the meta we have is strongly based on out maneuver and isolation. Fleets like this are used and have some success, but there are plenty of bad matchups for it locally.

Actually thinking on this a little more is helping me understand the general struggles of the Imps in the current Regionals season.

There have been far fewer black dice MSU Imperial fleets in the Wave 5 Regionals. Anecdotally (from inputting a lot of fleets into the data) the Imperials in general seem to be built for the charge straight ahead approach. Which is a bad idea against BCC fleets.

Agreed initiative is important, but whatever you activate has to be able to survive the squadron phase activation.

@Undeadguy It's easy to lose track of what is going on and discussed as the posts are usually referencing things across multiple threads over the past couple weeks. It happens, and in this case more likely to happen than not.

Just because you could activate a squadron doesn't mean it's always the best thing especially vs a 6 ship initiative list like above. If i faced that I would not activate my squads and have them so whatever came in for a double tap would eat that mass bomber wave. A raider/arq tends to not hold up to survive that. GSD is iffy but not reliable (though tua could change that). MC30 tend towards barely living.

As for the defense of bail and norse: keep in mind these guys are not meaning to make anything personal, but want everyone to be aware of what we consider a problem in the game at the moment. My fleet is an archetype we have has lots of discussion on how to deal with it, counter it, and in general approach beating the archetype. It is especially frustrating to them when people go oh do this but then ignore everything else squadrons bring to the table. I do think as this thread has gone on the replies have become focused on the point Bail and Norse are bringing up, and counters that are well thought out are being mentioned as part of a whole and not one offs.

3 minutes ago, mythics said:

Agreed initiative is important, but whatever you activate has to be able to survive the squadron phase activation.

@Undeadguy It's easy to lose track of what is going on and discussed as the posts are usually referencing things across multiple threads over the past couple weeks. It happens, and in this case more likely to happen than not.

Just because you could activate a squadron doesn't mean it's always the best thing especially vs a 6 ship initiative list like above. If i faced that I would not activate my squads and have them so whatever came in for a double tap would eat that mass bomber wave. A raider/arq tends to not hold up to survive that. GSD is iffy but not reliable (though tua could change that). MC30 tend towards barely living.

As for the defense of bail and norse: keep in mind these guys are not meaning to make anything personal, but want everyone to be aware of what we consider a problem in the game at the moment. My fleet is an archetype we have has lots of discussion on how to deal with it, counter it, and in general approach beating the archetype. It is especially frustrating to them when people go oh do this but then ignore everything else squadrons bring to the table. I do think as this thread has gone on the replies have become focused on the point Bail and Norse are bringing up, and counters that are well thought out are being mentioned as part of a whole and not one offs.

It's nearly impossible to discuss these topics because fleet builds and board state is too important, and that's how these "Do this to counter X" comes up. Otherwise no one can contribute to the discussion and problem. Blail and Norse seemed to be asking for help dealing with your fleet. How can you expect any of us to help without saying:

"Have you tried A, B or C? Do you see the threat ranges and where you can put your ships? You have initiative, how are you activating ships and when/how do you lose them? Did you know X, Y, and Z?"

A lot of times, you simply don't realize something until someone else says it.

Now, if you gave us a batrep of a game, our analysis can be much better.

I don't know what other threads you are talking about. I try not to get involved with Blail and how much he hates squads. That said, my initial question to him was how he can counter your fleet and I built off of that.

11 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Now, if you gave us a batrep of a game, our analysis can be much better.

Pretty much this. We can keep discussing, of course, but there will be much more value added if we can see a well-documented batrep of how this typically plays out to reference.

@mythics Why don't you run Dagger squad? Unique, costs 1 more point, and has good anti-squad attack. Unless you really need the 4 point bid.

I really wish I had a vassal log of destroying CNinja's 5x Arquitten list. It was quite the orchestra performance.

For reference, this is my recent regionals list, you will see similar concept Blail. I do know what Mythics is talking about.

Ma Nebs
Author: Ginkapo

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 398/400

Commander: General Rieekan

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Hyperspace Assault
Navigation Objective: Sensor Net

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51 points)
- Salvation ( 7 points)
- Spinal Armament ( 9 points)
= 67 total ship cost

Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (57 points)
- Yavaris ( 5 points)
- Fighter Coordination Team ( 3 points)
= 65 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Nebulon-B Support Refit (51 points)
- General Rieekan ( 30 points)
- Dual Turbolaser Turrets ( 5 points)
= 86 total ship cost

Modified Pelta-class Command Ship (60 points)
- Adar Tallon ( 10 points)
- Fighter Coordination Team ( 3 points)
= 73 total ship cost

1 Green Squadron ( 12 points)
1 VCX-100 Freighter ( 15 points)
1 Luke Skywalker ( 20 points)
1 HWK-290 ( 12 points)
1 Rogue Squadron ( 14 points)
1 Biggs Darklighter ( 19 points)
1 Dagger Squadron ( 15 points)

Card view link

9 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

I really wish I had a vassal log of destroying CNinja's 5x Arquitten list. It was quite the orchestra performance.

For reference, this is my recent regionals list, you will see similar concept Blail. I do know what Mythics is talking about.

Ma Nebs
Author: Ginkapo

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 398/400

Commander: General Rieekan

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Hyperspace Assault
Navigation Objective: Sensor Net

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51 points)
- Salvation ( 7 points)
- Spinal Armament ( 9 points)
= 67 total ship cost

Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (57 points)
- Yavaris ( 5 points)
- Fighter Coordination Team ( 3 points)
= 65 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Nebulon-B Support Refit (51 points)
- General Rieekan ( 30 points)
- Dual Turbolaser Turrets ( 5 points)
= 86 total ship cost

Modified Pelta-class Command Ship (60 points)
- Adar Tallon ( 10 points)
- Fighter Coordination Team ( 3 points)
= 73 total ship cost

1 Green Squadron ( 12 points)
1 VCX-100 Freighter ( 15 points)
1 Luke Skywalker ( 20 points)
1 HWK-290 ( 12 points)
1 Rogue Squadron ( 14 points)
1 Biggs Darklighter ( 19 points)
1 Dagger Squadron ( 15 points)

Card view link

I'm calling BS. No one in their right mind would use 3 Nebs

Still don't have the time to pick apart Adra's insights... good to see Mythics jump in here and share his thoughts. Wanted to comment on this though:

2 hours ago, Greatfrito said:

Uh... Triple post?

EDIT: To make use of my post - Have B-Wings come a long way since the start of the game, or am I just keeping better company these days? I remember being told, over and over, that B-Wings were brokenly underpowered when I started playing.

B-Wings have always been good. I've loved them right out the gate, the only reason I don't fly them more is because I'm more of an Empire player. The problem I see is people whining about their lack of speed. But if you're not going fast anyway, B-Wings are fantastic bombers with a good dose of AA to keep them effective, along with good hull. As Mythics is demonstrating with his list, pairing B-Wings up with Yavaris can output a lot of fantastic damage.

The fighter itself is fantastic. Hands down I think it's the best bomber in the game. It always has been, even beyond the wave 5 releases.

35 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

@mythics Why don't you run Dagger squad? Unique, costs 1 more point, and has good anti-squad attack. Unless you really need the 4 point bid.

I didn't see any quantitative difference in taking dagger over a b. If someone got to the point where they were killing b-wings having one sit there for an extra half turn doesn't get me much. It doesn't bring anything additional in the anti-ship game and if you expect to face aces (like a-wing circus, or imperial) then that black dice doesn't contribute to killing them as you need an accuracy to hurt them. It's also hedging on the off case a kalus ship gets in range to shoot. They get double braces from Jan which I will spend like water to keep the b's alive, so being unique doesn't really help.

In regards to the bid 4 points "felt right". Looking at the other fleets that were taken in the prior regionals it was either bidding to go first or not caring at higher points. 4 points seemed to be the mark where I would get to pick vs everything but the must go first bids.

1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

Now, if you gave us a batrep of a game, our analysis can be much better.

Your wish is my command. Realised I stormed a certain vassal tournament with a similar build...

35 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Your wish is my command. Realised I stormed a certain vassal tournament with a similar build...

Thanks Gink, but we're not looking for just anybody playing any old Rieekan/Yavaris/B-wing list. There's nothing new about Rieekan/Yavaris/B-wings, and we can easily address at a general level how to deal with Rieekan/Yavaris/B-wings.

What we're after is Norse and/or Blail playing against Mythics. These guys swear that this is like nothing anyone else has seen before. Because the list is demonstrably not unlike any of the many Rieekan/Yavaris/B-wing lists we've been seeing since Wave 2, it has to be something about either the way Mythics is playing it or the way Blail and Norse are playing against it. A batrep of such a game would help us comment on that piece of it.

Oh, one other thing I keep forgetting to mention, @Blail Blerg, @Norsehound: zero defense against Slicer Tools in that list. Slicer Tools will **** his day all up.

Yeah. I've pondered that for a while. Slicer tools and com noise would be annoying. There are the points for leia, but overall I sit in the bucket of suck it up and deal with it. If i get swarmed by 2 or 3 flotillas with slicer tools i probably lost anyways, as something else is in my backfield. At least a slicer tool approach would be telegraphed and must end in range of squadrons so it'll die in exchange.

2 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

I really wish I had a vassal log of destroying CNinja's 5x Arquitten list. It was quite the orchestra performance.

For reference, this is my recent regionals list, you will see similar concept Blail. I do know what Mythics is talking about.

Ma Nebs
Author: Ginkapo

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 398/400

Commander: General Rieekan

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Hyperspace Assault
Navigation Objective: Sensor Net

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51 points)
- Salvation ( 7 points)
- Spinal Armament ( 9 points)
= 67 total ship cost

Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (57 points)
- Yavaris ( 5 points)
- Fighter Coordination Team ( 3 points)
= 65 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Nebulon-B Support Refit (51 points)
- General Rieekan ( 30 points)
- Dual Turbolaser Turrets ( 5 points)
= 86 total ship cost

Modified Pelta-class Command Ship (60 points)
- Adar Tallon ( 10 points)
- Fighter Coordination Team ( 3 points)
= 73 total ship cost

1 Green Squadron ( 12 points)
1 VCX-100 Freighter ( 15 points)
1 Luke Skywalker ( 20 points)
1 HWK-290 ( 12 points)
1 Rogue Squadron ( 14 points)
1 Biggs Darklighter ( 19 points)
1 Dagger Squadron ( 15 points)

Card view link

I don't know how I can love and hate a list so much....

8 hours ago, SirDave said:

Did you play this match Monday night? I think I know the guy who you played... he texted me that list and said he beat a Sato list real quick. We discussed stuff... I may have special insight.

Yup. Outright shut my list down and destroyed it in detail.

Wow, where this thread goes over the course of a few hours of work.

I do get the impression that we're dealing with some very specific meta discussions. If I look at our central Texas meta, I think the list would struggle a bit here overall because virtually everything that Mythics acknowledges as being a valid counter to the list is present in the meta in some fashion. I want to empathize with Blail and Norse. I can get the frustration of playing against a list and repeatedly losing. I do think the community response is justified, however, in that a small local meta with a handful of players who all have fairly specific likes and dislikes does factor into how everyone else plays.

3 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

Oh, one other thing I keep forgetting to mention, @Blail Blerg, @Norsehound: zero defense against Slicer Tools in that list. Slicer Tools will **** his day all up.

I didn't really give that serious consideration because of how likely I'd expect slicer tools to die quickly. *shrug*