I'll need to take some time to go over your responses individually Adhra, but I appreciate the feedback. Some ideas, like going after the generics to shred them up first, I've already come to on my own. Again I've got that massive fighter ace build that had some solo successes that I want to take to the field and try, but I also haven't managed to get an Armada game going in three weeks, so I haven't had the chance recently to test any new theories against Drew.

2 hours ago, ImpStarDeuces said:

Stuff

I totally take no offense, because you're right about all of that. :-P

Personally, I tend to think of squadrons as ship or "fleet" upgrades.

But then again, I don't have a problem with the state of things. I really enjoy having the Rebels play like the movie rebels (tons of squadrons, lots of heroes, much less Ship), and squadrons in general working for both sides how they do in star wars "canon".

Uh... Triple post?

EDIT: To make use of my post - Have B-Wings come a long way since the start of the game, or am I just keeping better company these days? I remember being told, over and over, that B-Wings were brokenly underpowered when I started playing.

This is... also a triple post. The other triple post, if you will.

EDIT: You know what else has three posts? Squadrons. Think about it.

4 hours ago, moodswing5537 said:

Do US all a favor and don't speak for US anymore. I, for one, don't like your "holier than thou" attitude when it comes to judging other players and their intentions. I "give a soupy rat's ass" about all posters on this forum that provide information and POSITIVE feedback on questions and opinions posted here. I also respect Dras, as well as a great majority of folks, who take their time to provide this community with information to help make a great game even better.

If I ever sat across from you and you had the gall to tell me "you suck, play better", I'd probably kindly quit, pack up my ships and go find a game with someone that respected their opponent more than you do.

Considering he wrote a big translation of similar snark and he didn't respond to any counterpoints, dunno. Also, with the whole bashing of people who wanted more of a ship focus all through the wait to wave2. And that comment is exactly what I think he said, as what else are we going to do with those unstrategic comments telling us that fighters aren't a big deal and they lose all time when we're here specifically showing what's wrong with the proposed counters.

3 hours ago, Xindell said:

I have to agree here as well. He shouldn't have to be asked to play a different list. It's just a decent thing to do. Plus, it's a lot more fun. Personally, I have a hard time playing the exact same list more than a couple times anyway, as I always want to try new things.

Its really not good for the game to know there's a list out there with no realistic counter except skew counters.

Also, there are no true copycats within the regional lists spread. As described, its the Rieekan use and the new generics, the Dagger squadron. This is of utmost importance and NONE of the other builds have figured out that information. Again to bring up, squadrons Yavaris and BCC has the highest and most modified consistent damage output in the game literally bar none.

In our determination and in the determination of Ard too, the counter is more squadrons. And not just a few squadrons, usually near 110 points of squadrons plus totally skewing the lists to match with AA upgrades like putting flechette torps on a GSD2 Demo, instead of the cheaper GSD1, and the APTs.

Determining the highest level of balance of this game. And as you can see:

3 hours ago, ImpStarDeuces said:

Armada is a good game because at least in my experience, the above sentiment is not true. You absolutely don't have to win the squadron game to win this game. You can kill 0 points in fighters and still get a full fleet kill. People tend to forget this. So in addition to taking you fighters, you can counter carrier builds by killing the carriers. Often times if you can do it effectively and quickly it's actually MORE efficient than trying to kill the fighters with some of your own. Additionally, you can counter carrier builds by playing certain objectives, slowing them down, etc. I'm not quoting you to call you out to say you are wrong or a "how dare you". I just want to highlight some of the normal thought processes that seem to pervade us as a motley sort of individuals .

I do think one of the problems that we are so used to talking about miniature games (and a lot of other things) in absolutes. I'm starting to find it worrisome that people are starting to take some game experiences as canon, absolute truths, or laws. It started to seem like any time someone starts to question or provide an alternative, it seems like many (I'm speaking very generally here) lash out.

1. Remember this is a game. 2. It's a good game because most of the time we aren't constrained to a certain build to be competitive.

Unfortunately in this case, you DO have to win the squadron game. And you can't blitz the carriers: You can Transport block them via Rieekan, and even 7ship MSU is going to lose considerable numbers of ship to the point where calling it a counter is really dependent on luck and range factors, as opposed to any sort of list attributes.

So Blail...how do you beat the list? You keep saying the squad game is too good for this list, and that it is a problem. I know you have brought up the "squadron problem" before, but I don't know if you have explained how we can deal with it.

Using what the game has now, how can you beat this "unstoppable" Rieekan aces list?

The task if pretty simple IMO. Bid higher and have point based objectives for you to score off of. The list wants to sit in place, so the best way to do that is to get ir moving.

6 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

So Blail...how do you beat the list? You keep saying the squad game is too good for this list, and that it is a problem. I know you have brought up the "squadron problem" before, but I don't know if you have explained how we can deal with it.

Using what the game has now, how can you beat this "unstoppable" Rieekan aces list?

The task if pretty simple IMO. Bid higher and have point based objectives for you to score off of. The list wants to sit in place, so the best way to do that is to get ir moving.

What is the squad game too good?

If you take about 90-110 points of straight AA fighters, Soontir Howl Dengar Mauler combo + Tie advanced. You can kind of slow it down, but at 90pts and 6 squadrons, you'll only take out 1 or 2 of his squadrons before the combined mass of his squadrons wipe yours out completely. Yavaris double taps, Yavaris AA dice.

So, I escalated it to 120 (added Rhymer to get some bombing use out of those crap blue battery dice) AND made my GSD2 flechette torps and agent kallus. Brought another 2 AA dedicated ship for killing squadrons, however, since you're playing first here with Imperials, you're playing his objectives, and at close range, the Yavaris and Pelta actually dish out surprisingly high amounts of damage.

However, at that point I'm also investing nearly 150-200 points and opportunity cost gimping my list to combat these squadrons (flechette and kallus on GSD2 Demo) to the point where a more standard list from the wider worldwide meta is going to overwhelm me in ship firepower.

The list is not unbeatable: Its unbeatable by most lists that also have a fair chance against anything else. 7 ship MSU sounds promising, but in the conversation mythic and ard had, it seemed that there were many scenarios where the squadron list would actually force a win. Also, on the turn moving away, the 7 ship MSU is very likely to lose huge numbers of ships to simply 2 hit combinations of bomber damage, which is a key point that seems to be ignored on Mothma. Yes, she prevents getting 3 damage consistently, but the right choice and we've been already play testing it this way is to simply keep 2 dice. You can do the math, but rerolling hit hit has a whole 2/8s less chance of being hit.

25 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

In our determination and in the determination of Ard too, the counter is more squadrons.

That's to counter it. Optimally countering is pretty well defined as a skew list, and yes, the counter to somebody bringing a ton of bombers is to bring fighters. Just as the counter to somebody running H9's or Home One on everything is ECM on ships with redundant tokens--you're running a skew to counter somebody else who ran a skew on the gamble that he won't face the counter, knowing that if he does face the counter, he will lose horribly.

I still maintain that there are other ways to beat it. I have no doubt that I could deal with this list just as I deal with every other Rieekan aces list that I table every time with Mon Mothma MC30's. Yes, I've faced Yavaris before. Yes, I've faced Rieekan before. Yes, I've faced Gold Squadron before. Yes, I've faced Norra before. Yes, I've faced double-BCC before. These things are not unique to this list.

Fighters are the easy answer. If your goal is to beat it, bring fighters.

If your goal is to not bring squadrons, expect to lose to this.

If your goal is to beat it and not use squadrons, you're going to have to get creative.

If you are set in not playing part of the game, expect your competitive opponents to take advantage of your blind spot. If I knew my opponents had an irrational vendetta against ECM, you can be sure I'd have accuracy tech in every list.

27 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Unfortunately in this case, you DO have to win the squadron game. And you can't blitz the carriers: You can Transport block them via Rieekan, and even 7ship MSU is going to lose considerable numbers of ship to the point where calling it a counter is really dependent on luck and range factors, as opposed to any sort of list attributes.

I guess I'll bite. The list is good. No argument there. The defensive playstyle, I don't know, especially for tournaments. Defensive playstyle, at least in my experience don't do well in tourneys because they require someone to take the bait. Especially with Most Wanted and Solar Corona since you are required to actively hunt to get your points (fighter ambush at least allows you almost set up fighter minefields). So far out of the 10 tourneys I've been to someone has brought one, they end up playing against someone else who wants to play defensively. If both people sit at speed 0, you'll both most

Secondly, you can beat a defensive list pretty easily with DeMSU with a decent bid if you're prepared for it. Wait till last turn, jump in last turn, kill a ship, win.

5 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

If you take about 90-110 points of straight AA fighters, Soontir Howl Dengar Mauler combo + Tie advanced

This is not straight AA. You're introducing a ton of overhead in Dengar+escorts. Not saying he's not good or not worth it elsewhere, but he brings utility, and you're paying for that utility at the expense of raw throughput. Maybe try Howl + Interceptors for an alpha strike. Or my personal favorite, all of the TIE Fighter and Interceptor uniques (Soontir/Saber/Howl/Mauler/Black/Valen). Or, hell, if it's a slow, plodding game they want, throw 8 YV-666's at them while you're parked across the board.

2 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

That's to counter it. Optimally countering is pretty well defined as a skew list, and yes, the counter to somebody bringing a ton of bombers is to bring fighters. Just as the counter to somebody running H9's or Home One on everything is ECM on ships with redundant tokens--you're running a skew to counter somebody else who ran a skew on the gamble that he won't face the counter, knowing that if he does face the counter, he will lose horribly.

I still maintain that there are other ways to beat it. I have no doubt that I could deal with this list just as I deal with every other Rieekan aces list that I table every time with Mon Mothma MC30's. Yes, I've faced Yavaris before. Yes, I've faced Rieekan before. Yes, I've faced Gold Squadron before. Yes, I've faced Norra before. Yes, I've faced double-BCC before. These things are not unique to this list.

Fighters are the easy answer. If your goal is to beat it, bring fighters.

If your goal is to not bring squadrons, expect to lose to this.

If your goal is to beat it and not use squadrons, you're going to have to get creative.

If you are set in not playing part of the game, expect your competitive opponents to take advantage of your blind spot. If I knew my opponents had an irrational vendetta against ECM, you can be sure I'd have accuracy tech in every list.

Well, its more like, I'd like to have a chance WITH squadrons but not doing so in a skew fashion. But even at 90 points, its not enough. After upgrades and skewing, its like 150-200 is required to do it. And man, it does come down to.. I want to play the game. I want to play the game with some other ships. But really, you need 150 points to beat it, and 5 ships of activation, man, you aren't going to get that playing most large ships.

Ardaedhel, I would love to hear also your thoughts on the 2 hit bomber - keeping the result as 2 hits only. For a FCT'ed Yavaris set of 3x2 activations x2dmg. I think my testing showed that while an MC30 would survive this, the 4th squadron would wipe it out. A corvette had absolutely no chance and would die 100% of the time. Sometimes, even just to 2 yavaris squadrons.

5 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

What is the squad game too good?

If you take about 90-110 points of straight AA fighters, Soontir Howl Dengar Mauler combo + Tie advanced. You can kind of slow it down, but at 90pts and 6 squadrons, you'll only take out 1 or 2 of his squadrons before the combined mass of his squadrons wipe yours out completely. Yavaris double taps, Yavaris AA dice.

So, I escalated it to 120 (added Rhymer to get some bombing use out of those crap blue battery dice) AND made my GSD2 flechette torps and agent kallus. Brought another 2 AA dedicated ship for killing squadrons, however, since you're playing first here with Imperials, you're playing his objectives, and at close range, the Yavaris and Pelta actually dish out surprisingly high amounts of damage.

However, at that point I'm also investing nearly 150-200 points and opportunity cost gimping my list to combat these squadrons (flechette and kallus on GSD2 Demo) to the point where a more standard list from the wider worldwide meta is going to overwhelm me in ship firepower.

The list is not unbeatable: Its unbeatable by most lists that also have a fair chance against anything else. 7 ship MSU sounds promising, but in the conversation mythic and ard had, it seemed that there were many scenarios where the squadron list would actually force a win. Also, on the turn moving away, the 7 ship MSU is very likely to lose huge numbers of ships to simply 2 hit combinations of bomber damage, which is a key point that seems to be ignored on Mothma. Yes, she prevents getting 3 damage consistently, but the right choice and we've been already play testing it this way is to simply keep 2 dice. You can do the math, but rerolling hit hit has a whole 2/8s less chance of being hit.

So it sounds like this list slow rolls when you play against it. Have you considered using Ruthless with Bossk and some Tie/F? Alpha strike and then use AA to deal 1-2 more damage.

Or use flotillas with QTC to get 2 anti squad attacks.

Play your own Rieekan aces.

Use Intel to escape from zombie aces.

Use Raiders with Flechette and the titles.

Big higher and play second. Force him to come to you.

Yavaris has the same damage output (1 additional blue die out the side ) at close range as it does at long. The Pelta can deal a bit more, but both ships are still very fragile.

At the end of the day, this is still a Rieekan list, so treat it like any other Rieekan list. I get the feeling you are exaggerating the situation. There is no need to devote 200 points into anti-squad play. That's overkill and you are already playing into his game by doing that. Try some E-Wings. Use Ties to engage him from multiple angles. Jan is the only Intel, and I don't get how you can't tie them all down. It is pretty straight forward, and then you don't need to worry about Yavaris blowing your squads apart. They are only 8 points after all, and that delay can give you the time to get in and kill a carrier, essentally hamstringing the fleet. Unactivated squads are horrible.

1 minute ago, ImpStarDeuces said:

I guess I'll bite. The list is good. No argument there. The defensive playstyle, I don't know, especially for tournaments. Defensive playstyle, at least in my experience don't do well in tourneys because they require someone to take the bait. Especially with Most Wanted and Solar Corona since you are required to actively hunt to get your points (fighter ambush at least allows you almost set up fighter minefields). So far out of the 10 tourneys I've been to someone has brought one, they end up playing against someone else who wants to play defensively. If both people sit at speed 0, you'll both most

Secondly, you can beat a defensive list pretty easily with DeMSU with a decent bid if you're prepared for it. Wait till last turn, jump in last turn, kill a ship, win.

Problem is this: Consider he likely won his other games, if you simply sit there, and go for the draw. You're very likely going to be the one missing the cut. At that point, due to the generalization that he's likely won his other games, you're the only one who's really in high likelihood of getting truly shafted for drawing.

Boy, that sounds really boring though. wait 5 turns, and on the very last one go for it? Also, its really the escape turn thats the problem, cuz you need turn 5 to get close, but turn 6 to fire, at which point he retaliates by wiping out two of your ships completely, if not three with the extra squadrons and some actual close range ship fire... basically, you lose that scenario too.

I play a mean Rieekan aces Neb gunline myself. I am quite happy to play Ard where I turtle happily in a corner. I bet he breaks me anyway. Full logfile would be provided for all to see.

What I will say, I designed my list specifically to kill of small ships FAST. It was a counter to MSU spam, and against that it is glorious. Against lot of hull? Not so much, an ISD takes too long to take down and my ships will be lost as a result. Dont get me wrong, I WILL kill the ISD. 6-5 is not a victory in my book.

I did have major troubles with a Madine engine teching RBD MC80 at a recent tourney. Couldnt keep out of that side arc or close it down quickly.

52 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

In our determination and in the determination of Ard too, the counter is more squadrons. And not just a few squadrons, usually near 110 points of squadrons plus

Well, that's been the determination of the designers from the start, too. The "counter" to squadrons is more squadrons. They made that explicit from the start, as well as heavily implying it with the actual rules and mechanics.

But that's what I mean when I say that it might be a symptom of the game design. If squadrons are effective, people are going to bring more points of them. If people bring more points of them (and the only/main "counter" is more squadrons), people are going to bring more points of counter squadrons. Unless, as others have said, you can just ignore the squadrons completely (or absorb their impact while still pressing your own agenda).

EDIT: I was slow, and missed some of the above posts. The distinction between countering the playstyle and beating the playstyle is exactly what I meant with my last bit here. Pretend I'm smarter, and said that too.

Smartly.

1 minute ago, Blail Blerg said:

Ardaedhel, I would love to hear also your thoughts on the 2 hit bomber - keeping the result as 2 hits only. For a FCT'ed Yavaris set of 3x2 activations x2dmg. I think my testing showed that while an MC30 would survive this, the 4th squadron would wipe it out. A corvette had absolutely no chance and would die 100% of the time. Sometimes, even just to 2 yavaris squadrons.

That is why I have so many MC30's. Specifically, I was sick and goddamned tired of Yavaris Luke double-tapping my MC30s to death, but same principle.

Look, if you're going to dive a bunch of unscreened/minimally screened ships into the jaws of death range of Yavaris, more than likely, you're going to lose one in one round. But that's all you're going to lose--Yavaris B-wings have a lot of throughput, but not that much. If that one ship was 75% of your hitting power in the list, you're hosed. If it's 25% of your hitting power, and the other 75% is poised to wipe out Yavaris and a pair of BCC GR-75's in exchange for it, you're coming out on top of the exchange because, while the bombers are still there, they're way less scary than they were a minute ago, and now you've cleared out the front lines to threaten the rest of the ships for a tabling.

This is why board positioning is such a critical piece of this discussion, and why it's only moderately fruitful to discuss specifics of these matchups without specific examples to point to. It sounds to me very much like he's winning at the tactical level, which we can't address here with sweeping generalities that aren't "git gud hurr."

Just caught up to this thread as I only gave it a rough glance and didn't expect my fleet to be mentioned again.

I'll start with the personal item then work towards the fleet: why did I bring this fleet so many times which is annoying and a pain in the ass + people really don't want to fight it - I was practicing for regionals. It was over a one month span with iterations being run though to find what would work best. Since regionals I've fielded two different fleets that have no relation to my regional fleet (one imperial, one sato with y-wings and z)

I think the biggest difference in my fleet is not in the composition, but in my actual deployment. As the local meta is of frontal aggression combat tends to be front loaded and face on. Frontal aggression being defined as forward arc on forward arc and no ships trying to do long flanking runs or sniping from the sides. We have tried the trc90 mon mthma archetype (arqs, flanking runs with mc30 or raiders) but face bashing has proven more reliable. Due to the frontal nature of fights our meta is very non-protective of ships, and instead focuses on how to get the most out of a ship before it dies. The most standout thing that a frontal aggression meta developed was at Utah when I was up against a similar fleet concept of b-wings kill everything else supports. He deployed so yavaris was in the middle and back of the formation covered on the front at far side (from me) by transports and the near flank by the pelta. I deployed with yavaris and my pelta on the 3' line with the transports behind my ships. As far as squadron command goes there is no difference between the two deployments. The difference is my Yavaris was lined up so any squadrons that engage the b-wings will be under aa fire from yavaris. It's a pain to do, but if a squadron is slightly offset from the center and at a very specific range (you can do it on a table easily) engagement range falls (barely) in blue aa range. Yes, this means yavaris is open to a demo run or something similar, but that takes 2 turns and a gr can easily be sped up to cover the approach line. However, since Yavaris is on the axis of attack the b-wings are free to pivot to face the threat without leaving the double tap bubble.

How I would beat my fleet: In my eyes there are a couple ways that would fall under counter territory. As always player skill will tilt these match ups.

1) Bid for first 6+ activations with > 3 high threat ships. High threat is counted as anything that can deal 6 damage after brace reliably. Accuracies can be counted as blocking brace. Ard's list is a good base for what that fleet would look like. 4mc30 and 3 transports.

2) Play for objectives. I'd probably fear this list the most as it would probably be tailored to amassing large amounts of point from objectives very quickly and being able to control my approach. Almost all variants of this which can do it well have an interdictor. As interdictors are very off meta I didn't think this would show up. Also an objective style list is about as much fun as playing b-wing fence for people. You sit there and wait without the pleasure of throwing lots of dice at something

3) Nuking the double dice bombers. Probably the hardest to pull off and almost happened in one of my earlier iterations. 6 squadron activation of: mauler, stele, jendon, vader, defender, defender (jump master was present for intel, but ignoring it as it's not an alpha strike squadron) from flight controller ISD. This is also the least reliable approach to directly dealing with my fleet as one thing going wrong will make the alpha strike ineffective. Wedge can end up soaking to many shots and Jan means that you have to keep throwing shots at the b's since damage is maxed at 3 (vader caps at 6 and jan braces to 3, defenders cap at 5 from 4 hits + flight controller blue hit). Good news is, if you take out the double dice bombers you have an isd + whatever else vs a pelta and nebulon. Easy win there. Bad news is if you don't get them off the field you're going to have a bad day.

Love the profile pic, where did you get that beauty?

Do all heros walk around in yellow spaceships?

Is it a suprise that the biggest objectors to the outburst are those who play across multiple metas? An all frontal meta will be wrecked by rieekan Bwings.

4 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Look, if you're going to dive a bunch of unscreened/minimally screened ships into the jaws of death range of Yavaris, more than likely, you're going to lose one in one round. But that's all you're going to lose--Yavaris B-wings have a lot of throughput, but not that much. If that one ship was 75% of your hitting power in the list, you're hosed. If it's 25% of your hitting power, and the other 75% is poised to wipe out Yavaris and a pair of BCC GR-75's in exchange for it, you're coming out on top of the exchange because, while the bombers are still there, they're way less scary than they were a minute ago, and now you've cleared out the front lines to threaten the rest of the ships for a tabling.

I was just thinking of this. Yavaris double tapping 3 B-Wings with 2 BCC and Toryn will yield around 23 damage, and 29 damage with Norra, but that is also 6 damage not going to the hull.

B-Wings are slow, and can only manage a hefty speed 3, which means their range is quite small. And for Yavaris to double tap, those squads are not moving. And you have initiative, so once those squads get into range, you can just kill Yavaris (you must be at meduim or long range because those squads aren't moving, which means they are at medium at the farthest) and dip out going speed 3.

What I don't get is, how do you lose an ISD when:

1. You have initiative.
2. You see the threat range of the Yavaris love tap.
3. You will be at medium-long range of Yavaris if you decide to suicide in.
4. Even with Flight Commander, you can get the jump on Yavaris OR the B-Wings. Going speed 3, Yavaris will be far away from the B-Wings which means you can attack them, or go for Yavaris since there will be no B-Wings to protect her.

I think the frontal meta is a result of tournaments more than anything else. We have a few people that like to play squirly evasive builds or non-engagement fleets, so having to run people down is a must. I'm also the most squadron heavy player in the area, so planning for everyone else and saying screw that one fleet is viable and been done before.

I'll start a writeup on my objectives and when i chose first/second and defensive or aggressive, but it'll take some time to get up and with how fast this thread moves probably 30 posts from now.

12 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

I play a mean Rieekan aces Neb gunline myself. I am quite happy to play Ard where I turtle happily in a corner. I bet he breaks me anyway. Full logfile would be provided for all to see.

Haha, when my life calms down a little bit I'd love to play this one.

I just want to reiterate here that I'm not trying to posture or say I'm the best and can't be stopped with my awesome shrimp or whatever. I use my fleet as examples because I have extensive experience with it, not because it's the One True Way.

20 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Problem is this: Consider he likely won his other games, if you simply sit there, and go for the draw. You're very likely going to be the one missing the cut. At that point, due to the generalization that he's likely won his other games, you're the only one who's really in high likelihood of getting truly shafted for drawing.

Boy, that sounds really boring though. wait 5 turns, and on the very last one go for it? Also, its really the escape turn thats the problem, cuz you need turn 5 to get close, but turn 6 to fire, at which point he retaliates by wiping out two of your ships completely, if not three with the extra squadrons and some actual close range ship fire... basically, you lose that scenario too.

In my experience I'm not talking about me doing it. I mean that the guy played someone else who wanted to play defensively. It just evolves into a game of chicken, and yeah someone might come out more ahead.

Yes it is boring to play, but why does the list you advocate get a free pass? Additionally, you are forgetting the first/last activation advantage. End of Turn 5, take Demolisher and ET within range of a target preferably on the outskirts of your formation and take a shot. Turn 6 double tap and ET out. That's it.

1 minute ago, Ardaedhel said:

I just want to reiterate here that I'm not trying to posture or say I'm the best and can't be stopped with my awesome shrimp or whatever. I use my fleet as examples because I have extensive experience with it, and not because it's the One True Way.

Fixed it.

Just now, Undeadguy said:

Fixed it.

Just now, mythics said:

I think the frontal meta is a result of tournaments more than anything else. We have a few people that like to play squirly evasive builds or non-engagement fleets, so having to run people down is a must. I'm also the most squadron heavy player in the area, so planning for everyone else and saying screw that one fleet is viable and been done before.

This is the best explanation I have seen of why this fleet is dominating locally, but not elsewhere. We do not have a frontal charge meta locally. I do it occasionally for fun, but most of the meta we have is strongly based on out maneuver and isolation. Fleets like this are used and have some success, but there are plenty of bad matchups for it locally.