Got spanked by an Imperial build that didn't use Demolisher...had five activations and not a single squadron...shut Sato down by turn 3....in your face...spewing black dice...and nasty...so it's leading me to think maybe...just maybe...a squadron heavy meta can be combatted with gunnery team equipped black dice spammers with dual AA dice...

Whatcha guys thinking on that one?

I know @Ardaedhel has a no-squadrons MC30-heavy fleet that apparently is quite proficient at punching out carrier-heavy builds quickly, as it's good at dropping flotilla and Mon Mothma provides those MC30s some additional defense against lots-of-rerolls bomber attacks (oh, you finally got that hit+crit? please reroll!).

Locally I do just fine with a moderate fighter investment and Raiders/flak.

I've done pretty well with a squadron light build. 2 A-wings, Shara, and Tycho is the latest iteration. With Torryn and AS flak from your flotillas (or other ships as situation permits), there's enough.

I think more of it comes down to how you view the squadron game. Are you trying to compete in it and win a lot of points? Is it one of your main damage dealers against ships?

I know I'm looking at point denial, in that even if I get a bad squadron match-up, I can usually bag an ace squad or two, which means that if I lose all my squads, I'm only a few points behind.

I tend to find that some light or medium squads when combined with solid play from your ships is enough. Squads have to support your ships, and your ships have to support your squads. When they work together, its a thing of beauty.

10 hours ago, Gottmituns205 said:

Got spanked by an Imperial build that didn't use Demolisher...had five activations and not a single squadron...shut Sato down by turn 3....in your face...spewing black dice...and nasty...so it's leading me to think maybe...just maybe...a squadron heavy meta can be combatted with gunnery team equipped black dice spammers with dual AA dice...

Whatcha guys thinking on that one?

Anything more on this list?

Raiders + OEs + Felchettes I assume

I'm confused. An Imp squadron-less fleet beat your Sato fleet? And you are sick of playing carrier fleets? Or your squadron-less Imp fleet is losing against a squadron heavy meta?

1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

I'm confused. An Imp squadron-less fleet beat your Sato fleet? And you are sick of playing carrier fleets? Or your squadron-less Imp fleet is losing against a squadron heavy meta?

I have to admit, I'm also confused. Please reread yourself and redo that sentence.

The Topic Post was a Click-Bait style Article Name.

Its best translated as:

"Are you Sick of Carrier Builds?"

Which then leads into the anecdotal evidence, that, the OP is normally quite happy with using a full-squadron Carrier build, and insinuates he has been having quite a bit of success recently, until it ran into this Imperial Fleet.

Again, anecdotally speaking, the Imperial Fleet utilised a lot of ships with 2 AA dice base, and also equipped gunnery teams, so it would be able to force shots on ships and squadrons in the same arc.

He further states that this 5-ship Imperial fleet completely shut down and neutralised his Sato Fleet (probably through Instigator, and or simply shooting down squadrons) in 3 turns...

In effect, its a big swing fleet, and a lesson to be learned by the OP, that he is sharing to the crowd - specifically those who seemingly state that "Squadrons are Unbeatable." He is relating anecdotal evidence that the 5-ship Imperial Build, well built and played, has beaten his Carrier force rather seemingly, and thus, those who want to play "All Ships" should feel a little better about themselves.

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Just black AA is also not so good against Rhymer. He could just kill a little Raider every turn and keep moving so you never get your AA; depending on activation, initiative, etc... but if you gave him initiative and activation advantage, yeah, then a flechette raider moves in last, then locks you down first next turn (but why are all of your fighters together anyway?). However, and this is just my opinion so take it with some flippancy, if you are playing Rebs and you gave both activation and initiative up to an imperial player, then I just believe you are playing the Rebs wrong.

Nearly every time I get a game of Armada face to face I fight a list with maximum rebel squadrons. I have yet to beat it, even with gunnery team two blue dice on an all ship list.

Your best bet is to also go fighter heavy. That's just how the game is now.

6 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Nearly every time I get a game of Armada face to face I fight a list with maximum rebel squadrons. I have yet to beat it, even with gunnery team two blue dice on an all ship list.

Your best bet is to also go fighter heavy. That's just how the game is now.

I like it honestly. just ISDs with flight controllers and boosted comms get pricey but those defends MMMMHMMMM juicey

I am also getting whooped by rebel squadrons but I have yet to go imperial squadrons.... that day is coming though

While I suspect that the no fighter list is not on the way back to prominence or anything, I also don't believe that you must 'go fighter heavy' at all. A small to medium fighter group, built, supported and played correctly is more than enough to deal with heavy fighters at least long enough to use the ship advantage you will have. This game is very well balanced right now, and there is nothing very little that you 'have to' do when building lists to have success, IMHO.

24 minutes ago, Sybreed said:

I have to admit, I'm also confused. Please reread yourself and redo that sentence.

Which sentence? And I see nothing wrong with any of them. Each one is a succinct question that is quite clear.

4 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Which sentence? And I see nothing wrong with any of them. Each one is a succinct question that is quite clear.

I believe he was quoting his agreeance with you.

Not making that request of you.

13 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Which sentence? And I see nothing wrong with any of them. Each one is a succinct question that is quite clear.

Like Dras said, I was quoting in agreeance with you.

Oh hahaha I was really confused. My bad

The list was: isd 2, arq, raider with tau and flachette, 2 gsd 2 with gunnery teams and acm

He basically went speed 3, got in my face and out activated me, I had very poor dice rolls aswell.

It did teach me to appreciate the imperials more.

9 minutes ago, Gottmituns205 said:

The list was: isd 2, arq, raider with tau and flachette, 2 gsd 2 with gunnery teams and acm

He basically went speed 3, got in my face and out activated me, I had very poor dice rolls aswell.

It did teach me to appreciate the imperials more.

in my experience, carrier builds tend to get countered by very aggressive players who just go in your face and destroy your carriers. Is it what happened here?

8 minutes ago, Sybreed said:

in my experience, carrier builds tend to get countered by very aggressive players who just go in your face and destroy your carriers. Is it what happened here?

yea for sure. the list actually looks pretty good. double GSDs with APTs seems good

All you need is six Z95s/ties and play aggressively if you want to beat a max carrier list. Screaming Danger Zone is optional but encouraged.

2 hours ago, Norsehound said:

Nearly every time I get a game of Armada face to face I fight a list with maximum rebel squadrons. I have yet to beat it, even with gunnery team two blue dice on an all ship list.

Your best bet is to also go fighter heavy. That's just how the game is now.

The list we play against has 5 activations, so that Imp 5 ship list will not have last activation. The carrier build will shove 4 fighters with FCT up on one of the 4 ships that has already moved for Imperial on the 4th activation, and literally wipe out a small ship in that single turn, doing an average of 2 dmg (this is hit hit only) plus Norra shield damage, bracing twice to 1, means 6 dmg, or 6 +1shield from Norra, wipes out a Raider literally that turn. On 5th activation, carrier has the ability to FCT up and Yavaris double tap into 12 damage, again, wiping a 2nd ship off the map.

My insinuation? You lose.

Oh and except for Demolisher, none of those fighters will be in range for you to hit first, giving them the first strike. Meaning, again? You lose.

29 minutes ago, ImpStarDeuces said:

All you need is six Z95s/ties and play aggressively if you want to beat a max carrier list. Screaming Danger Zone is optional but encouraged.

I tried to tell a friend of mine this on Sunday when he brought exactly that against my fighter/bomber swarm. Instead he trickled them in one or two at a time and only killed Tempest Squadron.

Yeah. Blail and I have played enough games against a practiced fighter player that these "Oh, you need xyz and fly aggressively" solutions are... well... not helpful. Have you guys flown against defensive max fighter builds? As in, I hide in my corner/camp the points after choosing second player until you get into range and I wallop you with Yavaris bombers and all the buffs I sprinkled on my light ships? It's very tough to beat, very annoying, and It's irritating that this list type isn't more prominently faced in the meta for people to be concerned about it. Seems like the rest of the universe never bothers to try max rebel fighter bombers with Rieekan and aces. YOU may not believe it, but whenever we face mythics on the table with this list, we lose. All the time.

And in my case since he's my only constant face to face opponent for every game, that's every game I'm losing. Yet I keep coming back for more because I'm stubborn and it's a puzzle I am trying to crack.

19 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Have you guys flown against defensive max fighter builds?

No. I run max fighter builds. In many, many flavours.

Want to take a stab at what my Win/Loss Record is? Eh? Eh?

37 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Yeah. Blail and I have played enough games against a practiced fighter player that these "Oh, you need xyz and fly aggressively" solutions are... well... not helpful. Have you guys flown against defensive max fighter builds? As in, I hide in my corner/camp the points after choosing second player until you get into range and I wallop you with Yavaris bombers and all the buffs I sprinkled on my light ships? It's very tough to beat, very annoying, and It's irritating that this list type isn't more prominently faced in the meta for people to be concerned about it. Seems like the rest of the universe never bothers to try max rebel fighter bombers with Rieekan and aces. YOU may not believe it, but whenever we face mythics on the table with this list, we lose. All the time.

And in my case since he's my only constant face to face opponent for every game, that's every game I'm losing. Yet I keep coming back for more because I'm stubborn and it's a puzzle I am trying to crack.

I have about 8-10 games of dedicated practice/evolved practice vs these lists, against a Regional Top1 opponent. Norse probably has even more, maybe 20?. Of anyone, we are qualified to speak about fighting these lists.

Dras, to be real, we really don't care that you lose playing them, its anecdotal, and almost unrelated information that really implies "you suck, play better". Also because you're playing totally differently from how this guy plays and how he thinks about the game, which can be found by the lack of specific similarities you tend to bring up. If that's not what you imply, I think here you'd need to be more clear. Otherwise, no one gives a soupy rats ass that you lose while playing squadrons. To be really honest, we also think even the other two copycat lists in the Utah Regional had no idea of the magnitude of potential that actually is generated from the winning list.

3 hours ago, Megatronrex said:

I tried to tell a friend of mine this on Sunday when he brought exactly that against my fighter/bomber swarm. Instead he trickled them in one or two at a time and only killed Tempest Squadron.

This is actually an issue of min-max list building, things like Toryn, Flight Controllers gain the highest benefit the more squadrons you get. 6 Zs will die extremely quickly, many times in one shot to a Toryn-helped generic or an Ace. Also, the Zs cannot realistically provide more than 1 turn of delay: Yavaris double taps will wipe two Zs off for one activation out of 10 of their squadrons, and then you cannot stop the first strike bombing, which again, realistically can deal out to 8-12 damage off of only one ship commanding. If you push the Zs forward, a good opponent holds his squadrons close so that your first strike will land you inside the AA from Yavaris and the Pelta, at which point, 3 health on many squadrons is like machete-ing through tissue paper. At that point you could literally wipe out all 6 Zs with Yavaris AA and maybe 2 squadrons, allowing you 8 others, including bombers to being a first strike, usually capable of crippling larges/mediums or totally deleting a small ship.