You claim the battlefield. Then you say what die will not take part next round. The other player finishes up this round. At that point the die is now out of play for the following round. It doesn't matter where it is, what it was doing previously or what the temperature is outside. It's not complicated . But .. but... but nothing.

11 minutes ago, ozmodon said:

You claim the battlefield. Then you say what die will not take part next round. The other player finishes up this round. At that point the die is now out of play for the following round. It doesn't matter where it is, what it was doing previously or what the temperature is outside. It's not complicated . But .. but... but nothing.

It's not out of play. It's just not rolled. If there is some ability that let's you choose a dice and place it in the pool without rolling it, you could get around the Freezing Chamber.

1 hour ago, Network57 said:

Not sure why you'd ever want to do this, but can you choose a set-aside Death Trooper die from Krennic's ability?

No. Krennic only gets that die if he controls the battlefield. So claiming a battlefield, any battlefield, would effectively do this. Now if you claim this battlefield, you would deny the use of the trooper die and you can take one of Krennic's die. We can call this the Tarkin maneuver.

58 minutes ago, Mep said:

No. Krennic only gets that die if he controls the battlefield. So claiming a battlefield, any battlefield, would effectively do this. Now if you claim this battlefield, you would deny the use of the trooper die and you can take one of Krennic's die. We can call this the Tarkin maneuver.

Oh yeah! Forgot about that. It doesn't matter how it interacts with Krennic since claiming any battlefield makes it so that die isn't rolled.

22 hours ago, CBowser said:

I don't believe this is true. From the rule book...

REMOVING DICE
Removing dice moves them from a player’s dice pool back to their matching card.

• A die cannot be removed unless it is in a player’s dice pool.
• If dice of a specific symbol must be removed to trigger an effect, then it does not matter if those dice can currently be resolved. Symbols that are modifiers or require a resource match still count as that symbol.

In the case of Prized Possession, the die gets removed and placed on the Prized Possession, but I don't see any reason why it would not follow the other rules of removing dice. Thus if the die is not in their active pool, it can not be removed.

THE GOLDEN RULE (Page 3):
If the text of a card directly contradicts the rules of the game, the text of the card takes precedence. If you can follow both the rules of the game and the text of the card, do so.

Card breaks rules card wins!!

2 hours ago, Amanal said:

THE GOLDEN RULE (Page 3):
If the text of a card directly contradicts the rules of the game, the text of the card takes precedence. If you can follow both the rules of the game and the text of the card, do so.

Card breaks rules card wins!!

Such an abused rule... It belongs in a shelter, honestly.

Card text wins when it directly contradicts the rules of the game. Prized Possession uses "remove", but doesn't say that you handle that removal any differently from anywhere else in the game. So for the purposes from removing a die, it follows all the normal rules for removal. In this case, meaning you can only play Prized Possession to target a die in the pool.

It does say that you handle it differently, though: you're removing the die to PP, not its own card. That's why we think it's not the framework term 'remove,' but a more general use. If it was supposed to be like you're saying there'd be a replacement effect, don't you think?

2 hours ago, Buhallin said:

Such an abused rule... It belongs in a shelter, honestly.

Card text wins when it directly contradicts the rules of the game. Prized Possession uses "remove", but doesn't say that you handle that removal any differently from anywhere else in the game. So for the purposes from removing a die, it follows all the normal rules for removal. In this case, meaning you can only play Prized Possession to target a die in the pool.

And that's fine for as much as Prized Possession goes because it can interact with the dice and remove the dice as part of the action of being played. So like a few other cards timing of play is king, and you can easily manage that.

Timing the claiming of a battlefield with your opponent having those dice in pool is much more difficult. So with respect to Freezing Chamber the word choose and what that means has far more scope as we aren't removing a dice. Because we are choosing a dice and there is no rule that tells us how to go about it, the card is then the only consideration. Choose a dice, that is all you have to do.

6 hours ago, netherspirit1982 said:

Oh yeah! Forgot about that. It doesn't matter how it interacts with Krennic since claiming any battlefield makes it so that die isn't rolled.

Well...actually...what about Outpost's special? I would agree with the idea that each round's Trooper die is "new," but Outpost does make the question worth an official answer.

I think that regardless of whether Krennic's controller has claimed the battlefield, the interaction between CFC and the Death Trooper die depends on where the die resides when not being rolled, and if it can be 'chosen' while within that zone. The rules, as written, don't seem to care where the die came from or where it goes, only that it's choosable and corresponds to a character, which needn't even be in the game.

2 hours ago, Amanal said:

Because we are choosing a dice and there is no rule that tells us how to go about it, the card is then the only consideration. Choose a dice, that is all you have to do.

There is actually a rule that tells you how to choose...

• When making a choice, a player cannot choose invalid targets, e.g., they cannot deal damage to a defeated character. If there are no valid targets, then the card does nothing.

So the question is if a die that is not in the active pool is a valid target or not.

1 hour ago, CBowser said:

There is actually a rule that tells you how to choose...

• When making a choice, a player cannot choose invalid targets, e.g., they cannot deal damage to a defeated character. If there are no valid targets, then the card does nothing.

So the question is if a die that is not in the active pool is a valid target or not.

Read the card literally, the card tells us "look at the table, see all the dice, choose one that is a character dice."

So the question isn't "if a die that is not in the active pool is a valid target or not" what the question should be is: "Will you be putting that dice in your bag when you leave to go home?" Yes, then it is a dice and I am choosing it.

Right, but Krennic presents us with a situation that isn't covered by the rules at all. Where does the Death Trooper die come from, and where does it go when we're done with it? There's no area of play covered in the RRG that seems applicable, with the possible exception of set-aside dice, which can be hidden. My best guess is that they'll have to invent another area for it, possibly even one outside the game, not unlike the exile zone. It may very well be that dice outside the game can't be 'chosen.'

I honestly dont think you can stop the Krennic's deathtrooper die. It's not a character being played, and the battle field does specify character die, that is a HUGE corner case as the only time you would both trigger the battle field and Krennic would have control of the battle field is with Outpost rolling its special (or cunning triggering outpost special) but overall that's just kind of nutso. That is something that SHOULD be clarified. Other then that you arent removing a Die and you arent manipulating a die, it does not need to be in the pool to be targeted. All it says is you cant roll that die next turn, and by definition if it can not be rolled than it is neccisary that it not be in your pool, as such if you count it not being able to be rolled as manipulating then the card itself is manipulating a dice not in the pool, so if its very ability "manipulates' a dice not in the pool why would you think the dice needs to be in the pool to be targeted.

1 hour ago, Amanal said:

Read the card literally, the card tells us "look at the table, see all the dice, choose one that is a character dice."

So the question isn't "if a die that is not in the active pool is a valid target or not" what the question should be is: "Will you be putting that dice in your bag when you leave to go home?" Yes, then it is a dice and I am choosing it.

I'm not sure it's that simple. For one, while "Who is this dice going home with?" may be juicy club gossip, it's not really good rules.

Trying to stick to the actual rules, dice which are on cards are explicitly out of play. Annoyingly, they don't seem to actually define that targets must be in play by default, but it's a logical enough assumption to say that there's reasonable doubt here.

1 minute ago, Buhallin said:

I'm not sure it's that simple. For one, while "Who is this dice going home with?" may be juicy club gossip, it's not really good rules.

Trying to stick to the actual rules, dice which are on cards are explicitly out of play. Annoyingly, they don't seem to actually define that targets must be in play by default, but it's a logical enough assumption to say that there's reasonable doubt here.

Cards in your hand are also out of play but you target them all the time with discards. Further again if you consider "not being able to roll" the dice as "Manipulating" the dice then by definition the card is manipulating a dice that is out of play as that dice is not being allowed to be rolled. As such there is no reason to think it can not target the dice that is out of play when it explicitly affects a dice that is out of play on the next turn.

11 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

Cards in your hand are also out of play but you target them all the time with discards. Further again if you consider "not being able to roll" the dice as "Manipulating" the dice then by definition the card is manipulating a dice that is out of play as that dice is not being allowed to be rolled. As such there is no reason to think it can not target the dice that is out of play when it explicitly affects a dice that is out of play on the next turn.

In all of these cases, though, the abilities in question explicitly tell you to interact with that out-of-play component. That's obviously necessary - otherwise, we wouldn't be able to play cards, etc. Nothing in the Freezing Chamber text is that explicit.

We also don't actually have a definition for what manipulating a dice involves, but your example is wrong - the rules explicitly say that you cannot manipulate dice which are on the cards. So if "not being able to roll" the die counts as "manipulating", then a die on the card is not a valid target.

1 minute ago, Buhallin said:

In all of these cases, though, the abilities in question explicitly tell you to interact with that out-of-play component. That's obviously necessary - otherwise, we wouldn't be able to play cards, etc. Nothing in the Freezing Chamber text is that explicit.

We also don't actually have a definition for what manipulating a dice involves, but your example is wrong - the rules explicitly say that you cannot manipulate dice which are on the cards. So if "not being able to roll" the die counts as "manipulating", then a die on the card is not a valid target.

Then if "not being able to roll the die" is "manipulating" and thus not allowed to affect a dice not in the pool the battle field in question would always have 0 affect. As it would be disallowed from preventing a dice that is on a card from being rolled as it cannot manipulate that die. Preventing it from being rolled is manipulating it if you can not manipulate it when it is on a card then you can not prevent it from being rolled thus in this case the card MUST be able to target an out of play element because its effect explicitly affects that element when it is out of play.

It doesn't explicitly counter that rule though. It would have to say something like "choose a die (even one not in play)..."

We don't know if preventing the die from being rolled counts as manipulating it or not. The only two things we have examples for are removing and turning a die. Anything else we can guess at, but it isn't defined. You assume it does. Everything else in your point flows from this (unfounded) assumption, and makes the whole thing flawed.

I don't think "manipulating" a die is quite as broadly defined as you think. Rolling the die doesn't seem to count. Removing them from play doesn't either, because neither present themselves as exceptions to the manipulation rule.

6 hours ago, Buhallin said:

It doesn't explicitly counter that rule though. It would have to say something like "choose a die (even one not in play)..."

We don't know if preventing the die from being rolled counts as manipulating it or not. The only two things we have examples for are removing and turning a die. Anything else we can guess at, but it isn't defined. You assume it does. Everything else in your point flows from this (unfounded) assumption, and makes the whole thing flawed.

I don't think "manipulating" a die is quite as broadly defined as you think. Rolling the die doesn't seem to count. Removing them from play doesn't either, because neither present themselves as exceptions to the manipulation rule.

This was under the part where people were saying targeting was Manipulating and thus you could not target a Dice on a card, and if Targeting was manipulating then preventing it from being rolled would also be manipulating. If preventing it from being rolled is NOT manipulating as you are putting it then there is no rule that says a Dice must be in the pool to be targeted because targeting would also not be manipulating.

"DICE ON CARDS When dice are not in a dice pool, they are placed on their matching card. • These dice are not active, cannot be manipulated, and none of their sides are considered to be showing. Pg 10" it says the dice cant be manipulated when its on the card and none of its sides are considered to be showing, beyond that there is no rule that says dice are untargetable when they are not in play therefore there is no rule that requires such a text on the card for the card to target a dice on a card for the purpose of preventing it from being rolled.

So either

A. Targeting is Manipulating and thus you can not target a dice not in the pool, and if something as simple as targeting is manipulating then preventing being rolled is also manipulating which then by the text as written the card must affect a dice that's on the card in direct contradiction to the rules and then we go with Golden Rule.

Or

B. Targeting is not manipulating and neither is preventing a die from being rolled and thus no rule exists saying a dice cant be targeted when on the card thus the card needs no further text to allow it to do so as no rule explicitly states it cant. Only rule that exists for a dice being on a card is that it cant be manipulated and none of its sides are considered to be showing. If preventing being rolled is not manipulating then neither is targeting and nothing stops it.

"A target is a card or die to which an effect will happen. The term “choose” indicates that a target must be chosen in order for the ability to resolve. The player resolving the effect must choose a game element that meets the targeting requirements of the ability. • When making a choice, a player cannot choose invalid targets, e.g., they cannot deal damage to a defeated character. If there are no valid targets, then the card does nothing. • If multiple targets are required to be chosen by the same player, these are chosen simultaneously. • An effect that can choose “any number” of targets can successfully resolve if zero of those targets are chosen, though it might have no effect." Pg 18

they specify game element not "in-play" the element must meet the requirements of the ability (in this case Character die) it must be a valid target (character cant be dead) and that's it.

"Removing dice moves them from a player’s dice pool back to their matching card. • A die cannot be removed unless it is in a player’s dice pool. • If dice of a specific symbol must be removed to trigger an effect, then it does not matter if those dice can currently be resolved. Symbols that are modifiers or require a resource match still count as that symbol." Pg. 19

This only says REMOVING a dice not targeting so again the only rules that exist for not targeting it while it is on its card doesnt apply to the card we are talking about because that card is not removing the dice which manipulating and removing and spotting the die (not targeting) are the only things you cant do while the dice is on the card. No where in any of the rules does it say you cant target a dice out of play, or a dice that's on the card thus you can.

So either you consider targeting to be manipulating and thus preventing to be rolled is also manipulating thus original argument, or you consider targeting NOT to be manipulating and then there is nothing saying you cant target a dice that's on a players card and thus you can. With Either interpretation you can target a dice on a character card and resolve the battle fields ability.

I don't think I was involved at that point.

Targeting isn't manipulation or not manipulation - it's just choosing the target. Whether or not an effect counts as manipulation depends on the effect - what you do to the target, not whether or not you choose a target.

I'm done with this one. I feel like most of this conversation is people deciding how they want it to work, and then trying to justify that. It never really ends well. Let's hope they clear it up by release.

3 hours ago, Buhallin said:

I don't think I was involved at that point.

Targeting isn't manipulation or not manipulation - it's just choosing the target. Whether or not an effect counts as manipulation depends on the effect - what you do to the target, not whether or not you choose a target.

I'm done with this one. I feel like most of this conversation is people deciding how they want it to work, and then trying to justify that. It never really ends well. Let's hope they clear it up by release.

Ya I was mostly just pointing out how ridiculous the idea that you cant target a die not in the pool because the rules say you cant manipulate a dice not in the pool was which was the entire basis of this threads argument to begin with. I really dont think clarification is needed personally because targeting a dice being manipulating should never have been made, thus there should never have been the thought that you cant target a dice not in the pool with this cards effect.

There is a lot of bored people over thinking things right now. This is what happens when people have nothing to buy.

1 hour ago, Mep said:

There is a lot of bored people over thinking things right now. This is what happens when people have nothing to buy.

Actually, it's what happens when a company tries to dumb down the rules of a complex game in an attempt to make it more sellable to the mass market Target crowd.

"Smaller" is not always "simpler", and skipping comprehensive rules is VERY short-term thinking.

Rules lawyers gonna rule lawyer...

That's my takeaway from this, and several other threads on this forum

Its comical.