6 hours ago, amrothe said:

I wonder if they realize that making ben prevents blue from ever getting a card or event with a replacement effect for defeated that keeps you alive

Good.Second Chance(and its mate Starship graveyard) is a stain on the game.

Exaggeration, but I'm really not a fan of it.

9 hours ago, amrothe said:

I wonder if they realize that making ben prevents blue from ever getting a card or event with a replacement effect for defeated that keeps you alive

Well, at least not for Hero or Neutral Blue.

On 2/12/2017 at 9:23 AM, RookiePilot said:

Well, at least not for Hero or Neutral Blue.

Ummmm why? If he is as overcosted as most people think (myself included) this would be a way of balancing him to viability. I'm assuming they already have made one or are planning one for this very purpose.

Just FYI, Lukas said in a podcast he overcosted Finn due to him getting only better and better as time goes by, don't you think the same would be true with Obi-Wan? It's an obvious answer.

1 hour ago, DarthBlade said:

Just FYI, Lukas said in a podcast he overcosted Finn due to him getting only better and better as time goes by, don't you think the same would be true with Obi-Wan? It's an obvious answer.

I always thought Finn was fairly priced, you only need 1 to get the ability and then a fairly beefy elite can be his partner. If Lukas overcosted him I'd hate to see what the baseline was.

He's always seemed like he was costed to prevent ePoe / pFinn from being a thing.

Honestly think Finn is going to get worse as more yellow weapon options as well as more yellow hero options open up, not to mention better Red Hero characters and weapons as well. Not much of a point to get an F11-D for redeploy if you already have redeploy on hero weapons. Or a TIE when you can get an X-wing, so on and so forth. Finn is overcosted because his dice is bad and the only ability he has that affects the game once the game has started is his ability to ignore play restrictions on weapons. He was over costed because of the belief that the more Red Villian Weapons and Vehicles that came out the more possibility for broken combo's with hero cards, but to me the more hero cards that come out the less likely it is for us to need villain weapons or vehicles to compensate so he is always just going to be a high costed character with meh health and crud dice, but that's just my thoughts on finn.

51 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

Honestly think Finn is going to get worse as more yellow weapon options as well as more yellow hero options open up, not to mention better Red Hero characters and weapons as well. Not much of a point to get an F11-D for redeploy if you already have redeploy on hero weapons. Or a TIE when you can get an X-wing, so on and so forth. Finn is overcosted because his dice is bad and the only ability he has that affects the game once the game has started is his ability to ignore play restrictions on weapons. He was over costed because of the belief that the more Red Villian Weapons and Vehicles that came out the more possibility for broken combo's with hero cards, but to me the more hero cards that come out the less likely it is for us to need villain weapons or vehicles to compensate so he is always just going to be a high costed character with meh health and crud dice, but that's just my thoughts on finn.

I completely agree. That's why I was shocked when Lukas said it. His die is a better Jango's, which is actually good but his ability is nowhere near as strong and as we both agree, won't be getting better. But who knows, I'll be happy to be proved wrong. I like Finn and hope he can be a meta contender.

Eh, it's not because Finn is inherently strong, it's because they either have to balance Finn or overprice every future upgrade that they print. Pricing Finn cheaper would have forced them to balance those upgrades around him, which would disproportionately effect every other character in the game. Do you really want to pay 4 resources to put an F-11 on Bala-Tik?

1 minute ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Eh, it's not because Finn is inherently strong, it's because they either have to balance Finn or overprice every future upgrade that they print. Pricing Finn cheaper would have forced them to balance those upgrades around him, which would disproportionately effect every other character in the game. Do you really want to pay 4 resources to put an F-11 on Bala-Tik?

That's a solid point. I don't disagree with the decision but just hope Finn doesn't get lost in the quicksand....see what I did there?

On 2/15/2017 at 2:54 PM, WonderWAAAGH said:

Eh, it's not because Finn is inherently strong, it's because they either have to balance Finn or overprice every future upgrade that they print. Pricing Finn cheaper would have forced them to balance those upgrades around him, which would disproportionately effect every other character in the game. Do you really want to pay 4 resources to put an F-11 on Bala-Tik?

But those upgrades are all Weapons, or vehicles. They are already limited on what they can do as is. Unless they are planning on making Villain weapons disproportionately stronger then Hero weapons thus invalidating heroes, then the idea that you have to over cost weapons because Finn has access to them seems silly. Its a gun it has 3 or 4 damage sides just like every other gun and does gun things, all he does is allow a wider variety of guns, a wider variety we are already receiving with every new release on both villains and hero sides. His dice is bad and his ability is used during deck creation and gives variety that is ultimately kind of pointless the more variety we are given. There are only so many ways you can make a gun and only so many guns you need in a deck. If another character has to take less variety of guns but the guns are just as good quality and he has just as many guns in his deck and the character has better dice for less points why take the higher variety? for varieties sake like Ha ha, my 2 cost redeploy weapon with 3 damage sides is red villain instead of red hero take that I am awesome.....*shrug* I just dont see why you would have to over cost a weapon that is balanced for one side if that side is also balanced.

The advantage of Finn is that you can get all the best cards from both sides. The two sides are besides themetic reasons a deckbulding limitation to prevent too powerful combos and to prevent stacking all the best cards in every slot. Also both sides have quite different approaches to some mechanics. (Compare shield mechanics in hero blue and vilian blue.)

Finn can break all this limitations and pick the best in slot cards for vehicles and weapons. He can generate powerful synergie effects by combining cards which are not meant to be combined and he can bring more diversity to hero yellow by bringing in cards with vilian side mechanics. (Also he can bring red cards in a non red deck if you wish so.)

I think all these advantages justify Finns point cost. Maybe not now but defentily in the future.

8 hours ago, Vijel said:

The advantage of Finn is that you can get all the best cards from both sides. The two sides are besides themetic reasons a deckbulding limitation to prevent too powerful combos and to prevent stacking all the best cards in every slot. Also both sides have quite different approaches to some mechanics. (Compare shield mechanics in hero blue and vilian blue.)

Finn can break all this limitations and pick the best in slot cards for vehicles and weapons. He can generate powerful synergie effects by combining cards which are not meant to be combined and he can bring more diversity to hero yellow by bringing in cards with vilian side mechanics. (Also he can bring red cards in a non red deck if you wish so.)

I think all these advantages justify Finns point cost. Maybe not now but defentily in the future.

Which was my basic point the more hero weapons we receive the less need there is to get those villain weapons, unless those weapons are disproportionately stronger then the ones the heroes have. It's still just a weapon, a gun in a Yellow blue deck is still a gun, the more guns yellow neutral and yellow hero get the less need there is for villain guns there might be a difference between hero and villain thematically across multiple things, but guns isnt one of those things. So a simple character with the same cost better dice and an ability that actually means something to game play will continue to completely overshadow Finn because he is over costed for the dice and ability that he brings. Hell he is already overshadowed by 2 hired guns who just have good dice and no ability, and this is a time where his ability would really be at its strongest point, when we have the smallest card pool available thus that little extra diversity added by red weapons and vehicles is at its highest and strongest point because we dont have that many guns available to yellow hero, but I dont think that's going to stay. I just dont see the point of bringing him with those terrible dice and high cost, yellow blue... why run yellow blue over red blue when your hero is Leia and has much better dice and more health and a potential ability to help in game same cost. Is Yellow is going to be broken strong is red going to be terrible? Why run Pure Yellow?... The reason you run pure Blue or Pure Red is the characters you want to pair together, that you feel their dice and abilities will synergies well. The characters decide the color of the deck I dont see any reason I would decide to run a Blue Yellow deck or a pure yellow deck with finn as 1 of the 2 characters his dice are still terrible, its the idea of "why run a pure yellow deck with 1 dice Han and 2 dice Finn, when I can run Yellow Red with 2 dice Han 1 Dice Leia, or 2 dice Leia and 1 dice Han and have better dice, and access to more event cards and still have the same level of vehicle and weapon diversity+ have greater diversity in other upgrades" the only blue Yellow deck Finn slots into right now is quigon, but the more characters we get the less likely I am going to see that as a good pairing. The more cards we get the more diversity we get within the sides and colors we have, the less need it is to have yet ANOTHER gun from the opposite side on an over costed guy with terrible dice when we can have a good character with good dice that's not over priced with just as good a gun.

Great point tunewalker - I think the other side of that coin is that there may be some potential synergy or combination(s) possible with his ability outside of just 'more great guns' - not sure what those are but surely we will see something like that. Bringing the tools (gimmicks?) of the villain to the hero side is more what I am expecting his ability to shine with.

6 minutes ago, unlimitedpower said:

Great point tunewalker - I think the other side of that coin is that there may be some potential synergy or combination(s) possible with his ability outside of just 'more great guns' - not sure what those are but surely we will see something like that. Bringing the tools (gimmicks?) of the villain to the hero side is more what I am expecting his ability to shine with.

Can you imagine if he was 1 less costed all around. 2 Finn 1 Luke, 2 Poe 1 Finn, 1 Finn 1 Ackbar 1 Padawan. I dont think it would be broken but instead he would actually be an interesting addition to those decks and ya add diversity. Doesnt matter much now though as soon as we get a 2 dice yellow character for 15 points those combo's will be possible just hope they have better dice.

Regardless of how many good weapons and vehicles we get with future sets there will always be a handfull of weapons and vehicles that will be the best of the best. The best in slot. If you play hero you put in those best weapons on hero side and then other good hero weapons to fill your deck. If you bring Finn as character you could probably fill your deck with best weapons from both sides. Maybe this doesnt matter a lot at the moment but it will matter when we got a bigger cardpool and deck will get more and more refined.

Example: We now have Kylos Sabre which is far better then Lukes Sabre. Lukes Sabre is fine but not the best in slot. Maybe in the future we get a hero sabre which is as powerfull as Kylos Sabre. Now you can run the new hero Sabre together with Lukes Sabre in a blue hero deck. But if you could break the rules of deckbuilding and include Kylos Sabre as well you could run two different excellent sabres in form of the new hero sabre and kylos sabre instead of one excellent and one (only) good sabre.

This will stay true even if more sets come out. There are always good cards and even better cards.

Therefore the quality of weapons and vehicles in a deck with Finn will always be higher then in a deck without him. Only future sets will tell if this counteracts his suboptimal dice and high cost. My prediction: it will.

The mathematical cost of Finn's ability is 3 character points. It's too high for what it is and what it does. Why is that too high a cost? For exactly the reason that tunewalker nailed.

On 2/16/2017 at 7:46 PM, tunewalker said:

But those upgrades are all Weapons, or vehicles. They are already limited on what they can do as is. Unless they are planning on making Villain weapons disproportionately stronger then Hero weapons thus invalidating heroes, then the idea that you have to over cost weapons because Finn has access to them seems silly.

It's nice to have access to an F-11D Rifle as heroes, but is it 3 character points nice? ....maaaaybe (but not really), right now, since there are so few solid ranged guns, and the redeploy feature is so useful, but as more good neutral equipment comes out, his ability will become less important. The only benefit is if there's a red upgrade or vehicle card that synergies REALLY well with some other hero only card, which would have to be a backdoor treat that the designers give Finn, kind of intentionally. Unless the designers plan to intentionally sneak backdoor combo pieces to Finn...he can't ever be a tournament quality character. I'm stoked if that's something the designers are intentionally going to do as we move forward...but I kind of doubt it.

Sorry if people love playing Finn. Not trying to be a Negative Nancy here. That's just my math based analysis. Parade raining over.

Unless the villains' weapons and vehicles do something rather different than the heroes' and would combo well with some of the hero stuff, Finn is just more of the same. Right now the card pool doesn't have a lot, so more of the same is actually pretty good. After a couple more sets, not so much.

I see the beauty in Finn as a redeploy mule. If we start getting a good number of redeploy weapons he will be a great dump to have your threat or your padawan/rebel trooper pass its goodies to. The villain thing was just icing that's cool for now and will be loads of fun when we get ATAT's, tanks, those crazy wheel things, assuming they are red which ATAT's should be.

No ATAT's based on what Lukas has said. ATST's are the biggest land type vehicles we will see. Can/will Lukas change his mind? Maybe but for now he is standing his ground in that ATST's will be the biggest land vehicles we will see in Destiny.

I say land vehicles as before I stated ATST's being the biggest but someone pointed out the Falcon. I do believe this was meant to be land type vehicles as most ships are going to be bigger than those chicken walkers.

They need to do the sandcrawler, it is bigger than an ATST and probably be good at pulling stuff out of the discard pile.

37 minutes ago, Mep said:

They need to do the sandcrawler, it is bigger than an ATST and probably be good at pulling stuff out of the discard pile.

Be cool to have some neutral vehicles like a sand crawler. Sand speeder would be another good one. An ATAT might be hard to balance, that is a lot of firepower, but if you let one in should let them all. Ties, the Falcon, Black One pretty much imo all don't belong. It's a hard pill to swallow that Han with his blaster hits harder than a full sized ship but I digress. This is primarily a person vs person game so if I can have the MF or Black One strafe my Imperials I should have star destroyers bombarding at command. Could be an awesome support destroyer, does so much damage or destroys a support.