Working on a starviper aces pack for when we get to scum submissions. Haaven't decided if I'll pair the kihraxz with it or not. This is just a first pass of what I'm thinking about, figure I might as well start looking for feedback early. Let me know what you think.

First up: Pilots

Get a new PS5 generic with an EPT. This one would give us a generic that could actually take the Virago title.

The two named pilots I just made up abilities for, and am not entirely married to them if people don't love them, but they seemed fun.

Urai's is a way to get some guaranteed defense. Debating between the above version or rolling 2 fewer dice total in order to add a free evade result. The downside of that version is that it's vulnerable to things like Zuckuss, while cancelling to add an evde would not be. The current version is also more powerful in that you only do it if you have blanks (or eyeballs with no focus), but if you roll eavdes you can leave em. Basically turns it into a guarnateed evade every time you defend. The other version requires you to decide before knowing the result.

Tyber's ability is designed to go with one of the three fix cards I designed (more in a moment), though could also be used without that if you built a list with other ion sources in it. Against small ships, you get to stress them, against large ships you can ion them with a single shot, or if you prefer go with the stress there if it'd be more useful.

Speaking of the fix cards. I had several ideas. I don't know if versions of all 3 will go into the final pack or not, but these are the three ideas i've had so far, so figured I'd get feedback on all of them while I flesh out the pack.

Black Sun Refit was the first one I thought of, back after x7 came out for the defender. It basically mirrors that upgrade, but works with the Viper's preferred slower maneuvers. Gives the ship a much needed way to get evade tokens.

Zann Consortium Refit is designed to simply fix the cost and not do anything else. The StarViper is about 4 points overcosted compared to other ships in the same faction, so this just makes it 4 points cheaper. The most obvious comparison for cost is the protectorate. A PS1 protectorate is 20 points, vs 25 points for a PS1 starviper. Despite the price difference, the ships are practically identical. Same action bar, same upgrade bar, and same stats except for the 1 shield on the starviper. Protectorate has a better dial. For 1 point, the protectorate can take the title, which if it triggers a single time in a game to prevent a damage, is as good as the shield the starviper has. If it triggers multiple times, it's now even better.

StarViper M-2 is to reflect the...M-2 starviper. Used by the Zann Consortium, the M-2 has heavier shields than the basic starviper and trades the proton torpedo launchers for an ion cannon. Since this removes the torpedo slot, you can't take either of the refits at the same time to stack point reductions, and as a title it won't stack with Virago. I thought about just adding a cannon slot to replace the torpedo, but that seemed boring, and not all that good unless you add a double tap like the TIE/D title or something. Instead, I decided to see hwo the above works out. Forces you to get an ion effect instead of picking any cannon you want, but instead of choosing between shooting with a cannon or your primary, you just make your normal primary attack, then if it hits decide if you'd rather do normal damage or ion. If you only get 1 hit through, there's nor eason not to go with the ion effect, but if you have more hits you have to decide if damge or an ion token will be more useful. Since it's not actually a cannon, your opponent stillg ets the normal range bonus at range 3, but you also get your normal range 1 bonus.

Tempted to add 1 more title that gives system and/or illicit upgrade slots as a generic title for the ships that can't (or aren't) using Virago or M-2.

Still need to come up with a few non-fix upgrades to add to the pack. Might try to build buzz droids, but haven't decided how I would do so since making them a torpedo would mean you can't use any of the above fix cards. The only other option is to make them a modification somehow, but then you lose out on that slot to take em... Might just make them a 0 point torpedo that only works on the starviper. Essentially the same as getting a point reduction then paying for the torpedo, instead of having a normal point cost AND the opportunity cost of not getting the point reduction. not sure what else to make. Probably some EPT, maybe an illicit or modification of some kind?

The fix cards are very strong; I could see black sun refit being very popular. Then again, the starviper really needs a hand!

Only problem I see here is that the Starfighter is 5 points less, has a better dial and just lacks a shield.

Taking a 4 point reduction helps, but it still feels like the Viper is overcosted.

I really like your ideas, but I think both of you are overestimating how overpriced the starviper is. A shield is better than a Concordia title because a shield can't be juked, isn't affected by stuff like omega leader, and you don't have to be in range 1 facing each other to trigger it. The generic starviper should cost more than the protectorate, just not 4-5 points more as it is now but instead about 2 points more, which means its ~2 points overcosted statswise not 4. I think the zann consortium refit could potentially create a hyperefficiency problem. Black sun refit is good...though it might create another borderline hyperefficiency problem like we see already with defenders as well. Starviper M2 seems really fun.

2 minutes ago, Gibbilo said:

I really like your ideas, but I think both of you are overestimating how overpriced the starviper is. A shield is better than a Concordia title because a shield can't be juked, isn't affected by stuff like omega leader, and you don't have to be in range 1 facing each other to trigger it. The generic starviper should cost more than the protectorate, just not 4-5 points more as it is now but instead about 2 points more, which means its ~2 points overcosted statswise not 4. I think the zann consortium refit could create potentially create a hyperefficiency problem. Black sun refit is good...though it might run create another borderline hyperefficiency problem like we see already with defenders as well. Starviper M2 seems really fun.

It's at LEAST 3 points overcosted as-is. One could perhaps argue whether it's 3 or 4. But a single shield isn't worth 3 points, especially when you CAN get the title on the protectorate. As I said, if it triggers a single time to prevent daamge it's as good as a shield. Some games it won't trigger at all, but other games it'll trigger multiple times and be way better. All in all I'd call it a wash points wise. And the protectorate also has a better dial, which is worth something as well.

The Zann Consortium refit still wouldn't allow you to get 5 starvipers, just gives you points for some upgrades or move up to PS3 instead of PS1. Probably both, could do 4 PS3s with Autothrusters (and no slots for anything else). Or 4 PS1s with a 16 point ship. Black Sun Refit I think is more questionable since it gets the defender-style efficiency, though there you don't get a white k-turn like the defender, so it's not as scary. Still defensive, but harder to turn around if you wanna keep tokens, and you can't chase as well, though it's a better knife-fighter.

Maybe with the Black Sun Refit, instead of just a free evade allow for you to perform a boost or barrel roll action after a 1 to 2 speed maneuver. I feel like it just copies the x7 title too much. The one thing that hurts the SV is that you want to run PTL for maneuverability, but the dial just isn't green enough. Or maybe allow you to take a TL. More of an offensive title while x7 is defensive. I like the other titles though.

I'd be happy if Urai's ability simply read as "Add the Cloaking action to your action bar. When you decloak, you may use the straight, bank, or hard-turn template."

1 hour ago, Jo Jo said:

Maybe with the Black Sun Refit, instead of just a free evade allow for you to perform a boost or barrel roll action after a 1 to 2 speed maneuver. I feel like it just copies the x7 title too much. The one thing that hurts the SV is that you want to run PTL for maneuverability, but the dial just isn't green enough. Or maybe allow you to take a TL. More of an offensive title while x7 is defensive. I like the other titles though.

The whole point of the BSR was that I wanted something to make the StarViper more defensive. The biggest issue I've run into running the ship (and I've flown it a lot) is the lack of evade action. It just dies too easy to bad green dice. Deosn't help if my Guri has a stack of 3-5 focus tokens if she rolls all blanks. And it really sucks to do that 2 times in a row and explode. I'm not opposed to makingt he title do something DIFFERENT, but I want it to be something that helps keep the ship alive longer.

Black Sun Refit I like, but might be a little aggressively priced. x7 is definitely too good for -2, but it does work on the (white!) K-turn so that's still a leap ahead of this. Did you consider making it a free action instead of a token?

The M2 title I love, especially if it was in the same pack. That gives you flexibility in the fix, offense or defense at the same price. I think that was a problem with the defender fix that it's offense v defense titles with the same value, but one is cheaper would have liked that being a free Cannon (3pt or less) D or x7 both 0pt.

On the right track with the -2 title/Refit as it is objectively a similar value to the effectively 4pt cheaper protectorate. These being incompatible is good and able to take the Refit with Virago is fine too.

All the stuff looks good. I like the pilots, nice and Scummy. Keep the PS8’s ability like it is, it's a lot more valuable like this. Maybe cost the titles a bit less aggressively (like make the point reduction one point less), but all the cards look well designed.

As for other upgrades, buzz droids could be an illicit.

Perhaps I am mistaken...but had you not also in the past used TBC as a pilot for the StarViper ? I had house ruled him at 33 points and used a similar upgrade to your BSR

Starvipers are bad but these cards make them a little too good. Seriously. All of the refits.

Urai Fen: Great ability. Gives turrets fits with Autothrusters.

Tyber Zann: I really like this one, too. Locks someone down with Ion + Stress, or allows big ships to be ioned in one turn by any ion effect. Only works with itself with Virago Title and EMP Device, before the added fix.

Zann Consortium Ace: Fits with all the other PS5 EPT Scum generics.

Black Sun Refit: That's a very powerful change, and while there's no denying the Viper needs some help, I am not a fan of X7 for the Defender. Even without the white K-turn, I'd still prefer this had the "if you're not touching another ship" and "free evade action" language that would go a long way toward balancing X7.

Zann Consortium Refit: Also not a fan of just a vanilla massive point reduction. A-Wings did get just -2 points, but that's kinda lame in retrospect and also only half the fix they got.

StarViper M2: Really overshadows the Virago Title. In other words, I like the pilots better than the fixes, ha!

I have a suggestion for the Black Sun Refit: 1 hard turns become green, and add the evade action to your action bar. -3 points.

Gives you the option for PtL, or just enjoy being able to take the evade action normally. Still pairs well with Guri, and it can be used with the Virago title. It isn't nearly as strong as the x7, but I don't think it should be, either.

If you wanted to make the title stronger it could add: After executing a speed 1 maneuver you may perform a free action. In that case I would make it -1 point.

Just now, Gersun said:

I have a suggestion for the Black Sun Refit: 1 hard turns become green, and add the evade action to your action bar. -3 points.

Gives you the option for PtL, or just enjoy being able to take the evade action normally. Still pairs well with Guri, and it can be used with the Virago title. It isn't nearly as strong as the x7, but I don't think it should be, either.

If you wanted to make the title stronger it could add: After executing a speed 1 maneuver you may perform a free action. In that case I would make it -1 point.

I don't want to just turn it into another PTL carrier. You can take a protectorate for that.

On 2/18/2017 at 8:28 AM, rafcpl6868 said:

Starvipers are bad but these cards make them a little too good. Seriously. All of the refits.

I can see why you would think that...but in testing, for instance, the BSR does not. It makes it reasonable to field.

I like what Im seeing. My only suggestion would be that M-2 starviper maybe should be 0 points. It seems to do a lot while also costing -2. However, I haven't tired testing these in theory so I could be totally off base.

On 2/15/2017 at 6:06 AM, YodaPool said:

Perhaps I am mistaken...but had you not also in the past used TBC as a pilot for the StarViper ? I had house ruled him at 33 points and used a similar upgrade to your BSR

Yah I did a 33 point talon and in the viper for season 1, so I can't include him in this pack. He is sticking around for season 2, so if this gets in he benefits from it.

On 2/18/2017 at 4:28 AM, rafcpl6868 said:

Starvipers are bad but these cards make them a little too good. Seriously. All of the refits.

Would love some examples of builds you think would be overpowered. Anything you can do with the ZCR can be done just as well, or probably better, with the protectorate. BSR gives the ship some actual survivabity, but without white kturns and 1 less health (2 less shields) it's still not as good as the defender.

21 hours ago, ObiWonka said:

Urai Fen: Great ability. Gives turrets fits with Autothrusters.

Tyber Zann: I really like this one, too. Locks someone down with Ion + Stress, or allows big ships to be ioned in one turn by any ion effect. Only works with itself with Virago Title and EMP Device, before the added fix.

Zann Consortium Ace: Fits with all the other PS5 EPT Scum generics.

Black Sun Refit: That's a very powerful change, and while there's no denying the Viper needs some help, I am not a fan of X7 for the Defender. Even without the white K-turn, I'd still prefer this had the "if you're not touching another ship" and "free evade action" language that would go a long way toward balancing X7.

Zann Consortium Refit: Also not a fan of just a vanilla massive point reduction. A-Wings did get just -2 points, but that's kinda lame in retrospect and also only half the fix they got.

StarViper M2: Really overshadows the Virago Title. In other words, I like the pilots better than the fixes, ha!

Tyler doesn't only trigger when HE gives an ion, so he could also trigger from another ship adding an ion token (or for extra fun, trigger it on an enemy ship when they feedback array your ship). Definitely combines best with mark 2 viper though.

For BSR, maybe something like "If you executed a 1- or 2- speed maneuver, you may perform a free evade action during the 'Perform Action' step." That would cover bumping, red moves, asteroids, debris, etc. and on a named pilot with virago, you could always go adv sensors and be able to avoid bumping most of the time. Low ps moves first and should be able to pick maneuvers to not bump. Lodi g the extra defense if you don't fly well enough seems reasonable.

ZCR is basically just there to give an option to get the ship down to a reasonable price to fly it without a bunch or extra effects to remember.

M2 is definitely good, but keeps the ship expensive, and you lose on the veery valuable system slot from the Virago. On the other hand, the current generics can't use virago anyway so it gives them a title option

Actually that wording for BSR doesn't work with advanced sensors, so never mind

I know Tyber works with other ships, too, it's just a lot of work then to take advantage of his ability. On the other hand, he sounds fun alongside Dace Bonearm. I guess he technically does work with Ion Torpedoes, too... once.

21 points is probably pretty fair for a StarViper these days, ZCR is just boring so far as fixes go any more.

The Systems slot is pretty valuable, but Virago is 3 points more, 1 Shield less, and Unique.

4 hours ago, ObiWonka said:

I know Tyber works with other ships, too, it's just a lot of work then to take advantage of his ability. On the other hand, he sounds fun alongside Dace Bonearm. I guess he technically does work with Ion Torpedoes, too... once.

21 points is probably pretty fair for a StarViper these days, ZCR is just boring so far as fixes go any more.

The Systems slot is pretty valuable, but Virago is 3 points more, 1 Shield less, and Unique.

Virago isn't actually 3 points more. If you're using virago you'll be taking Zann or Black Sun refute (both torpedo slots) to reduce the cost of the ship, or else you can take m2 and lose the torpedo slot so you aren't taking a refit. So at worst virago is 1 cost more but you're getting evades. Otherwise it's a point cheaper with the zann refit

Please no to x7 2.0. That PLUS mindlink? Good lord shoot me now. And that's outside the fact that it is entirely unoriginal. I don't have any suggested changes (wish I did. I will think about it more), but that upgrade alone is going to keep me from voting up for an otherwise very solid expansion.

4 hours ago, Kdubb said:

Please no to x7 2.0. That PLUS mindlink? Good lord shoot me now. And that's outside the fact that it is entirely unoriginal. I don't have any suggested changes (wish I did. I will think about it more), but that upgrade alone is going to keep me from voting up for an otherwise very solid expansion.

What if it only gave the evade if you didn't bump/hit a rock? The pack is GOING to have some way to get an evade token. That lack is my biggest beef with the starviper. I ALWAYS have them die because they just blank out all of their greens and I can't do anything about it. At least scum won't have palp behind it as well

Your pilots are nice.

12 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

What if it only gave the evade if you didn't bump/hit a rock? The pack is GOING to have some way to get an evade token. That lack is my biggest beef with the starviper. I ALWAYS have them die because they just blank out all of their greens and I can't do anything about it. At least scum won't have palp behind it as well

Guri + Black Sun refit + Autothrusters + Attani Mindlink sit at 31pts and make it a very strong choice for any attani list, maybe you can start be pricing the upgrade at -1pt instead of -2pts.
- Did you playtest an alternative version with a focus token instead of evade ? With attani mindlink, that's could be a solution more interesting than an evade token. i'm agree with you that's the lack of evade token is irritating but it's part of their DNA, like the protectorate.
- Another solution could be to change the maneuver which trigger the card : maybe "after executing a bank maneuver" (only 6 maneuvers with a limited short range maneuverability) or "after executing a turn maneuver" (only 4).

On 18/02/2017 at 10:59 PM, ObiWonka said:

Zann Consortium Refit: Also not a fan of just a vanilla massive point reduction. A-Wings did get just -2 points, but that's kinda lame in retrospect and also only half the fix they got.

+1.
I think the starviper need to keep some distance with the Protectorate starfighter (because with this, the SV is a protectorate-wannabe with an extra shield). You already get a cost réduction with the Black sun refit, Maybe take the opposite concept and get extra ordonnance : Like, well... Maybe allow to take an additional missile or torpedo that's cost less than your equiped torpedo. (If you see the 2 Defender's title, 1 is for barebone ship et the other is to boost the use of a canon).

And for the M-2 title...
I think it could be fun with Dace Bonearm around. But Could it be effective ? I need to try it to get a real opinion about this title...

Urai is awesome. Great design here mate. Tyber may suffer Bonearm syndrome.

As for the refit:

BSR - too similar to X7 maybe instead of evade just allow it to perform BR or boost like someone mentioned BUT at the start of combat phase? Sounds fun

ZCR - nothing to add here.

MK2 - seems a bit to powerful. Effect sounds cool but combined with cost reduction its too much. Defenders got 0 pts offensive title after all too. So 0 points and it looks nice.