Yeah, I kinda said that in my second post. The Crew becomes the special mechanic for seat 2 (and the 4 attack dice is because in Empire At War it has five guns), just like the backseater in a Y is represented by the Turret. I'm just saying I think they went that route for a mechanical option because the purpose of the second seater is a little nebulous or variable - thus if you spend points with Crew it can be anything.

I appreciate the argument that the gunner *may* be represented by a mechanic of some kind (PWT, turret upgrade card, etc) rather than an explicit crew card upgrade.

My point is merely that it need not be so. I think it's an arbitrary construct that the designers sometimes follow and sometimes don't. I do not feel there is any pattern to when they do or don't follow it, either.

I understand your logic, but feel the reasoning is not so ironclad as to prevent adding a crew upgrade slot to these fighters.

Perhaps in X-Wing 2.0 they will design from the start to allow more types of thematic builds, following a more inclusive strategy with respect to the lore.

Another, related, idea is the concept that in a BTL-S3 you could have the pilot shoot the main (fixed forward) guns while the turret shoots as well (possibly at a different target).

The Falcon's pilot might shoot concussion missiles from the forward arc while the turret gunners shoot, too.

As many have said, a wholesale re-imagining of turrets might be warranted.

As for crew cards, I take the stance that these extra special people are optional replacements for the "stock footage", "movie extra", crew members. They each bring something to the table over and above pressing the firing stud on the gun controls.

Not taking a special crew upgrade card does not mean that someone isn't present at that gunnery station. Likewise, having a gunner station to man does not prevent you from paying squad points to upgrade that no-name person to a hero.

24 minutes ago, evanger said:

I appreciate the argument that the gunner *may* be represented by a mechanic of some kind (PWT, turret upgrade card, etc) rather than an explicit crew card upgrade.

My point is merely that it need not be so. I think it's an arbitrary construct that the designers sometimes follow and sometimes don't. I do not feel there is any pattern to when they do or don't follow it, either.

While it is an arbitrary construct I think you will be hard pressed to find a ship not following the rule of 'gunner only crew' being integrated into a different firing pattern. You state they don't always follow that pattern but the only example I've seen in this thread arguing otherwise is that the TIE phantom's crew slot is a gunner in the source material but it's a forward facing arc locked ship so there's no 'special' firing pattern it could adopt.

Your premise seems to be 'I disagree with how FFG implements crew slots' and while that's a valid opinion it's not really a position that can be discussed. Yes, you do disagree with that. Thread over?

The system is pretty simple. Ships get a crew slot if they carry a passenger/non-gunner. The Freighters and Shuttles have plenty of passenger space. The B-wing/E2 adds a passenger seat. The Arc had a crew of three (the pilot, tail gunner, and a systems officer). The Phantom is something of an anomaly (although the gunnery position was for a fixed forward gun), but frankly, the Phantom itself is something of an oddity.

I suppose you could argue it might make more sense to separate passengers from gunners (So tail gunner, gunner, and a few other upgrades would be Gunner upgrades, while flight officer, R2-D2 Crew, etc. would be crew upgrades), but that seems like splitting hairs and complexity for the sake of complexity. Not to mention the arguments that would result over whether Copilots qualified as crew are not.

Yeah the only ship i'd say doesnt follow the idea of the crew has a set role (i.e. gunner) is Phantom. Which like i said before i always assumed that was because its the only random crew imperial we got (firespray doesnt count, as we all know if scum was a thing originally we'd never have the firespray as an imperial ship)

Also before someone brings up Sabine's TIE, for one thing thats a modified ship to begin with and for another it DOES have the room for another person ... just not intentionally so they wouldnt be very comfortable lol. She could have modified a spot to allow someone to "hang on" atleast

On 2/6/2017 at 9:16 PM, ficklegreendice said:

Idk we only ever see poe/finn in one amd all finn does is shoot other guns

And banter, but i cant imagine the gameplay benefit there

Only miss on the sf is "**** this thing can move!"

"**** this thing can move...." as he accelerates out of the hanger.... not trying to second guess but I think really Poe is referring to the acceleration, something never referenced in X-Wing but they could have given it a green 4 forward and few woul dcare...

As for the Striker, they probably did make some changes between original concepts and when the shoot... but as I have said elsewhere, in this generally assumed SPACE combat game... In the same spread on the Striker in the aforementioned book, it states it's exceptional maneuverability being done to it's adaptive flight control system (ailerons..) and drive, it also says "these same feature which provide exceptional maneuverability are a hinderence outside an atmosphere and/or a gravity well (from a planet)" so in theory as we play X-Wing generally in space rather than in atmosphere, they should be worse than they are......

It's a book, like every other book designed to do only one thing... make money. I and the rest of the sci-fi geek community regularly spend our money to ensure Mickey Mouse gets richer, I find it amusing when people make references to anything Star Wars and "Canon" and "it should be like this....." in the game.

For instance, Episode 15, season 3 of Rebels (Titled - Warhead) Hera says "Wedge, Hobbie... lets go, we've got training to do." I've probably paraphrased that slightly and as sure as I have a hole in my arse someone will call me on EXACTLY what Hera says, what I do know is she speaks with 2 male pilots called Hobbie and Wedge... therefore I demand both pilots now receive A-Wing cards.... Let me put Wedge in an A-Wing and I'll show you some fun tricks with 2 defence dice ships rolling NO dice.... against a 5 dice range 1 shot..

6 hours ago, nigeltastic said:

Your premise seems to be 'I disagree with how FFG implements crew slots' and while that's a valid opinion it's not really a position that can be discussed. Yes, you do disagree with that. Thread over?

Way back in the early days of this thread (yesterday) I was wondering if anyone could guess as to what the pilot card would cost if a (crew) and (bomb) upgrade icon were added to the TIE/sk.

Don't really care if you think they should be added, or should have been added, or if them not being added was all part of a pattern you can see.

Just curious if people who are good at pricing modified cards could weigh in.

6 hours ago, Squark said:

The system is pretty simple. Ships get a crew slot if they carry a passenger/non-gunner. The Freighters and Shuttles have plenty of passenger space.

I hear you, here. It seems simple.

However, consider this thought experiment.

Who is manning the Falcon's guns if your squad includes just a Han Solo pilot card?

I would say someone, not represented by a crew upgrade card. A nobody. They are shooting this way and that, as the ship has a Turret Primary Weapon.

Add the Luke Skywalker crew upgrade card, or Gunner. Luke's card came with the Falcon; the art is of Luke in the Falcon's turret, the card is used to make your shooting better. It implies (at least to me) that the nobody in the gun well has been replaced by our friend Luke.

We don't know for sure that Luke takes over the gun station. He might be sitting in the cockpit just behind Han. Doesn't seem like it, with his fist pumping in the air and all ("Don't get cocky, kid")

So, at least in the case of the Falcon and the Luke upgrade, the shooting ability of the ship improves with Luke aboard.

Take a Y-wing pilot card like Horton Salm. Unclear, right now, as to which type of Y-wing we're talking about.

Add a Turret upgrade card to the Y-wing. If you don't add the BTL-A4 title, this can now be assumed to be a two-seater (BTL-S3), with a nobody manning the gun. They are decent enough; but it just feels like it would be cool to upgrade them. Let Luke shoot the turret (or, better yet, let Wes Janson shoot the turret for a Hobbie Klivian Y-wing pilot card...the crew of Thon's Orchard will thank you).

In fact, there is a case for the second person in the Y-wing being more than simply a gunner. They are listed as "co-pilot/gunner". That could be like a RIO in a modern two-seat plane, controlling other systems, etc, in addition to manning the turret. Why would it be so bad to have Chewbacca, or Nien Numb, or Mercenary Co-pilot, or Recon Specialist, or any other crew type card aboard? Seems fun. And Star Wars-y.

The only problems, it seems to me, is choosing an appropriate squad points cost for the BTL-S3 title.

I suspect it can't be "0", like the B-wing/E2, as there is a potential turret and an astromech involved.