A nested action is an action within an action. This does not happen in this game as the current action resolves before another action is taken. This includes queue for the current action, it is finished when that action ends. Jango's ability is contained within the action of Rey's activation. The other actions granted by abilities (those abilities are resolved in the queue but the actions they grant are taken as separate actions) happen preceding, but not within, Rey's activation action. Yes, I did nest a sentence within a sentence there.

So there is an ability that grants an additional action and then there is the actual action. The ability gets resolved but the second action is not resolved within that action, it is simply granted and then taken after the current action is fully resolved.

Example: Tactical Mastery is played, queue - pay one resource for cost of card, queue - spot a red character, queue - event- take up to 2 additional actions. Action ends, queue is ended. Current player still has two more actions to take, each with separate queues as actions get fully resolved before another action can be taken. This card allows for 3 consecutive actions by one player. One of those actions may be to activate a character and if Jango is playing opposite, he could activate within the action the character activates in, not one of the other 3 actions.

We may be saying very similar things, just in different ways. However, the queue would not extend to multiple actions, and thinking it does, would cause this confusion.

@Engine25 Buhallin and myself both posted examples of Jango interacting with Ambush about halfway up this page, Im hoping that can clean up the confusion on the subject.

23 minutes ago, abell19 said:

@LordFajubi We are saying that if you put an ambush weapon on Rey, you can use one of the two actions to activate Rey. And if you do that, Jango's ability can trigger, but when it does it goes to the back of the queue. So, it is behind Rey's ability resolving giving that player another action. Now that there is nothing ahead of jango's ability in the queue his ability resolves allowing him to activate.

Rey's ability is getting an extra action. It has already gone into the queue and resolved. Actions are not abilities or effects and don't go into the queue. When Rey uses her first extra action to activate, Jango's ability triggers and goes into the queue. At this point it is the only ability in the queue so it resolves and Jango's player must decide whether or not to roll Jango's dice into his pool. Now Jango's ability is resolved and Rey's player may take another action.

6 minutes ago, Starbane said:

Rey's ability is getting an extra action. It has already gone into the queue and resolved. Actions are not abilities or effects and don't go into the queue. When Rey uses her first extra action to activate, Jango's ability triggers and goes into the queue. At this point it is the only ability in the queue so it resolves and Jango's player must decide whether or not to roll Jango's dice into his pool. Now Jango's ability is resolved and Rey's player may take another action.

Exactly. Actions contain queues, queues do not contain actions. There are no nested actions.

9 minutes ago, Starbane said:

Rey's ability is getting an extra action. It has already gone into the queue and resolved. Actions are not abilities or effects and don't go into the queue. When Rey uses her first extra action to activate, Jango's ability triggers and goes into the queue. At this point it is the only ability in the queue so it resolves and Jango's player must decide whether or not to roll Jango's dice into his pool. Now Jango's ability is resolved and Rey's player may take another action.

This is true if you equip a non-ambush upgrade on Rey, but if it is an ambush upgrade like Holdout Blaster then the ambush and Rey's ability would enter the queue and if you activate a character with the first action, then Jango would enter the queue behind the second ability.

Just now, Mep said:

Exactly. Actions contain queues, queues do not contain actions. There are no nested actions.

That is not really true, abilities enter the queue at all times, not just when actions are taken

Directly quoted from page 16 in the RRG under the heading Queue:

1 minute ago, abell19 said:

This is true if you equip a non-ambush upgrade on Rey, but if it is an ambush upgrade like Holdout Blaster then the ambush and Rey's ability would enter the queue and if you activate a character with the first action, then Jango would enter the queue behind the second ability.

This isn't how it works. Please review the updated rules, in red text, about additional actions, page 13. Giving Rey a weapon with ambush simply grants two additional actions. All actions are separate of each other and are fully resolved before the next one, regardless of their source.

8 minutes ago, abell19 said:

This is true if you equip a non-ambush upgrade on Rey, but if it is an ambush upgrade like Holdout Blaster then the ambush and Rey's ability would enter the queue and if you activate a character with the first action, then Jango would enter the queue behind the second ability.

I'll elaborate.

Both Rey's ability and the Ambush go into the queue. You resolve whichever one went in first and get an extra action, then you resolve the second and get another extra action.

At this point Rey's player may choose to take an extra action or not. If he does and activates Rey, now is the moment that Jango's ability triggers and becomes the only ability in the queue. Once Jango's player decides whether or not to roll in Jango the queue is once again empty and Rey's player must decide if he is going to take his last action.

There is confusion over the ability that gives another action and an action itself.

FFG, it's flow chart time.......

7 minutes ago, Starbane said:

I'll elaborate.

Both Rey's ability and the Ambush go into the queue. You resolve whichever one went in first and get an extra action, then you resolve the second and get another extra action.

At this point Rey's player may choose to take an extra action or not. If he does and activates Rey, now is the moment that Jango's ability triggers and becomes the only ability in the queue. Once Jango's player decides whether or not to roll in Jango the queue is once again empty and Rey's player must decide if he is going to take his last action.

Starbane, I understand your point a lot more now, thank you for clarifying. Your interpretation of the rules makes a lot of sense, that is just not how I was reading it. It seems like we are basically just arguing if it goes resolve top of queue, then action you get from that resolution, then next thing in queue. Or if it is resolve both things in queue and then take the two actions you get from the resolution.

It's resolve both things in queue and then additional actions. When you put the hold out blaster on Rey, that is one action, with two triggered abilities. Those abilities are in the queue and are resolved in order giving additional actions. The action then ends as there are no more abilities to be resolved in the queue. The player still has two more actions in their turn and may take an action or not, as per rules page 13, it is optional. If they choose to take an action and active Rey, then an ability triggers, Jango's, and goes into the queue. It is the only ability in the queue so it resolves. Note the third action is not in the queue but simply exists. Once the activation action is fully resolved with all abilities out of the queue, the action ends. The third action may be taken at this point. Jango's only chance to activate was during the action when Rey activated. Not during some other action.

The queue tracks effects and abilities. It does not track actions, which must be fully resolved before another action can take place. There are abilities which give actions, but they don't put actions in the queue but simply resolve in the queue, granting an additional action, which may or may not be taken after the current action fully resolves, which happens when the queue is empty. The queue does not persist between actions.

4 hours ago, Buhallin said:

Taking an action to activate a character, and every activation being an action, are not the same thing.

Abilities go onto the queue to resolve. While granted actions may have to be taken immediately, they still can't be taken until the ability that grants them resolves.

So:
- Play Holdout Blaster on Rey (Queue: HB)
- Resolve Holdout Blaster (Queue: Empty)
- Trigger Rey, and Ambush. Both are After, controlling player decides (Queue: Rey, Ambush)
- Resolve next in the queue, Rey (Queue: Ambush)
- Take action to activate Rey, roll dice
- Jango triggers, player decides to use him. Gets added to the queue (Queue: Ambush, Jango)
- Resolve next in the queue, Ambush (Queue: Jango)
- Take action
- Resolve next in the queue: Jango (Queue: Empty)

The queue is surprisingly consistent and easy to track, but it's VERY different than anything most CCG players are used to. With the sole exception of "Before" triggers, nothing interrupts it. Every effects goes to the end of the line and waits its turn.

The emphasized is inconsistent with the text the RRG about actions that a player takes when it is not their turn.

Quote

If a player is allowed to take an action outside of their turn, they immediately take it.

What in the RRG suggests that "immediately" could also mean "placed into the queue"? The example in the RRG is the Tusken Raider's ability "conflicting" with Jango's ability. Both of their abilities have the same trigger , the activation of the Tusken Raider (activating the Tusken triggers its own ability, it also triggers Jango's). In that case then yes, I would agree that the RRG stipulates that whoever controls the battlefield would get to pick what happens first.

The example in the OP is different. Jango's ability and Rey's additional actions have different triggers.

In any event, I submitted a rules query to FFG. I'll post if they get back to me.

There are two major problems with the other side of this argument.

First, you don't gain the extra action until the ability resolves. Until the ability comes out of the queue, nothing happens at all. You get the action when the ability resolves. People seem to want to think that "action-granting" abilities somehow jump the queue. Which is honestly depressingly common - seems like every timing question in this game, someone has some reason why their particular effect works like a stack rather than a queue. But with the sole exception of "before" effects, they don't.

Second, there's absolutely no support for the idea that there's one queue per action. The rules say:

The queue is an imaginary line that all game effects and abilities enter and leave in chronological order when triggered, based on a “first in, first out” principle. Each one waits its turn in the queue until the trigger condition is complete. Each effect must fully resolve before the next one resolves. If during the resolution of something in the queue, another effect is added, it moves to “the end” of the queue and is resolved last.

Nothing in there about actions. Only effects and abilities. It's also singular - "an imaginary line".

I'm not sure why everyone has such a hard time accepting the queue - it's actually really simple. If people would stop looking for ways to transform it into a stack, we'd all be better off.

3 hours ago, Mep said:

ical Mastery is played, queue - pay one resource for cost of card, queue - spot a red character, queue - event- take up to 2 additional actions. Action ends, queue is ended. Current player still has two more actions to take, each with separate queues as actions get fully resolved before another action can be taken. This card allows for 3 consecutive actions by one player. One of those actions may be to activate a character and if Jango is playing opposite, he could activate within the action the character activates in, not one of the other 3 actions,

This is definitely wrong. Lukas clarified a very similar situation with Squad Tactics, Guardian, and Redeploy. It was posted on the Facebook group, copying here for anyone who isn't in the group:

Game effects and abilities enter and leave the queue based on a “first in, first out” principle. Squad Tactics is played and the ability enters the queue first, thus activating “any number of your non-unique characters at once.” As a "before" ability, Guardian fully resolves and defeats the Tusken Raider. The trigger condition for Redeploy is met and as an "after" ability, it does not interrupt the flow of the game and waits its turn in the queue to resolve. Since Squad Tactics entered the queue first, it would fully resolve and then the next ability in the queue, Redeploy, would resolve as normal. Redeploy is an "after" ability and I will remove the word "immediately" from its description in the Rules Reference as that adds unneeded complication.

In this case, the two actions from Tactical Mastery are equivalent to the two activations for Squad Tactics. Jango is like Redeploy - an After effect, which will go on the queue and won't resolve until it comes off, which will be after everything in the queue before it has resolved.

And before you say it again - yes, when you're granted that action, you must take it immediately, but you aren't granted that action until the ability resolves. Lukas explicitly points out that "immediately" doesn't mean anything at all. Didn't on Redeploy, and doesn't for actions.

36 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

This is definitely wrong. Lukas clarified a very similar situation with Squad Tactics, Guardian, and Redeploy. It was posted on the Facebook group, copying here for anyone who isn't in the group:

Game effects and abilities enter and leave the queue based on a “first in, first out” principle. Squad Tactics is played and the ability enters the queue first, thus activating “any number of your non-unique characters at once.” As a "before" ability, Guardian fully resolves and defeats the Tusken Raider. The trigger condition for Redeploy is met and as an "after" ability, it does not interrupt the flow of the game and waits its turn in the queue to resolve. Since Squad Tactics entered the queue first, it would fully resolve and then the next ability in the queue, Redeploy, would resolve as normal. Redeploy is an "after" ability and I will remove the word "immediately" from its description in the Rules Reference as that adds unneeded complication.

In this case, the two actions from Tactical Mastery are equivalent to the two activations for Squad Tactics. Jango is like Redeploy - an After effect, which will go on the queue and won't resolve until it comes off, which will be after everything in the queue before it has resolved.

And before you say it again - yes, when you're granted that action, you must take it immediately, but you aren't granted that action until the ability resolves. Lukas explicitly points out that "immediately" doesn't mean anything at all. Didn't on Redeploy, and doesn't for actions.

R2D2 is on the ball for this one.

If I'm reading this right, I think I'm in agreement with Buhallin. The queue isn't altogether difficult to sort out if you're used to the stack.

Holdout Blaster goes into the Q.

Rey triggers, goes to the end of the Q. No more triggers remain, Q starts to resolve.

Holdout Blaster resolves: take an action. If that action is an activation, Jango's ability may trigger, going to the end of the Q.

Rey is next in the Q, take another action. If that action is an activation, Jango's ability may trigger (if it hasn't already), going to the end of the Q.

Jango is last in the Q, and may now resolve.

Sadly R2D2 has this one confused.

Let me explain. Squad Tactics is a single action, in which all events and abilities are resolved within that action. In this case the action is an event card who's ability being character activations and additional abilities being guardian and redeploy also taking play within that action. None of those are separate actions. Again, while an activation can be taken as an action, in this case the action is Squad Tactics which grants abilities - character activations. Actions and abilities are not the same thing nor are they equivalent in any way.

Now you can play Tactical Mastery, fully resolve that action which grants two addition actions, but not within that action, there are no nested actions, as per page 13 of the rules. Only after action #1 is fully resolved may the player take the additional actions. Say action number #2 is the exampled Squad Tactics action, in the scenario laid out, then the Redeployed weapon would fully resolve within action #2 (the Squad Tactics one). Again, the action which used the event Squad Tactics must fully resolve before additional actions are taken. Then there is yet another action to take place, which could be replacing that redeployed weapon with another upgrade.

In the facebook example it all happens in a single action (not single turn) and is a good example since characters are being activated, plus a before ability of Guardian with an after ability of Redeploy. All of those events and abilities must be fully resolved in that action before another action can be taken. Again, page 13 of the rules. It is a wonderful example of an Action with multiple trigger Abilities . What that example is not of is a Turn with multiple Actions .

There are phases to the game.

So you have Game with has Rounds which have an Upkeep Phase and an Action Phase which have Turns which have Actions (usually just one) which have played Events and Abilities (the things that go into the queue).

Maybe the reason people aren't understanding this is they are thinking Turns and Actions are the same thing, which they are not. A turn can have more than one action if an ability in the first action grants another action but an action cannot have an action nested inside of it. One action must fully resolve before the next action is taken.

If you want to use magic as an example, an action would be like one of the main phases. The stack is fully resolved before you can go from phase to phase, or in this case, action to action.

2 minutes ago, Mep said:

One action must fully resolve before the next action is taken.

I think this is where you're getting yourself screwed up.

An action is resolved when that action is complete - NOT when that action and anything that's triggered from it is complete. When you activate Rey, you roll her dice - and her action is now fully resolved. So you move to the next thing in the queue.

You're thinking (and claiming) that Rey's action isn't complete until any effects which trigger from that action are resolved. But there's nothing in the rules to support that.

Again, page 13 of the rules about additional actions. Have you read it? Additional actions are taken following the resolution of the current action. They are not taken within another action. There is nothing in the rules that state actions happen within action, in fact it is very clear, you finish one action before you take additional actions. An ability granting another action doesn't mean you take that action before resolving the current action fully.

Here are the rules.

AMBUSH
After playing (and resolving) a card with Ambush, a player
may immediately take another action.
•
If a player is allowed to take an action outside of their turn,
they immediately take it.

(note: playing a card is an action, fully resolved)

When a player is allowed to take additional actions on their turn, they must immediately take them following the resolution of the current action or decline to act (this is not the same as passing your turn). They cannot save the actions for later. If they are allowed to take an action outside of their turn, they also must take it immediately or decline to act.

(note: the current action must be resolved before the next action is taken. It does not say, don't resolve the current action, instead interrupt the current action to play another action)

I don't see anything that contradicts what I wrote above. The rules are actually pretty clear about how the queue works, but you seem to be encapsulating (or nesting) the queue inside of an action when there's nothing in the rules to support that.

Play a card or an ability, it goes into the Q. If it triggers something else then you add the trigger to the end of the Q. Then you resolve the Q, one effect (card, ability) or trigger at a time. The only exception is before abilities.

Now, a game turn might be analogous to one of Magic's main phases, but certainly not an action.

And I've said it repeatedly: It says "When a player is allowed to take additional actions..." How are you allowed to take an additional action if Jango's ability, which gives you the additional action, is still sitting in the queue? Every card text is an ability. All abilities go into the queue. No ability resolves until everything that is ahead of it has resolved. Those are the simple fundamentals of the queue.

The line you keep quoting is simply there to tell people that when something like Jango goes off, they don't have to wait until their next turn to do it. You're trying to turn it into something far, far larger, that is not even hinted at anywhere else in the rules.

6 minutes ago, Mep said:

(note: the current action must be resolved before the next action is taken. It does not say, don't resolve the current action, instead interrupt the current action to play another action)

Nobody is suggesting that you don't resolve the current action. The difference is what that action IS. Each possible action is defined. Activating rolls dice. Playing a card puts the card into play and resolves it. Resolving dice resolves one or more dice. When you've completed those steps which are defined, you've completed the current action. Nowhere does it say that the action isn't complete until everything that triggers from it has resolved.

Look, if "resoling an action" means resolving that action and anything that's triggered from it, that should be mentioned somewhere, right? Under action definitions, or trigger definitions, or the queue, or something. But it's not. The queue never even mentions actions. Actions never mention triggers. Triggers never mention actions either. You're creating this massive dependence between the three from a line that isn't saying anything but "Don't wait until your next turn."

Administrative note: I'm going to stop saying "except Before abilities" every time I mention abilities and the queue. When someone inevitably chimes in that before abilities don't use the queue, I'll refer them to this post to say "Yes, I know, but it wasn't relevant to the discussion and I was tired of typing it"

The queue part is on page 16. It says nothing about actions getting nested in actions, rather things get resolved. Their example is overly simplistic to get anything useful from. However page 13 is very clear. Additional actions granted by Rey or Ambush are taken after the current action is fully resolved.

So start of Turn:

Action:

Deploy holdout blaster on Rey. Abilities grant two more actions, resolved, actions granted.

Queue is empty, action is resolved.

Second action:

Activate Rey, roll dice, Jango's ability triggers. No other abilities in queue, his ability resolves, either choice, lets say he activates.

Queue is empty, action is resolved.

Third action:

Electroshock - remove one of Jango's dice. Die is removed, ability is resolved.

Queue is empty, action resolves.

Page 13 laids this out pretty clearly.

3 minutes ago, Mep said:

Deploy holdout blaster on Rey. Abilities grant two more actions, resolved, actions granted.

I'm sorry, but this is not correct. By the very line you are repeatedly quoting, it's not correct.

Rey's ability and Ambush both go in the queue. You pull one off to resolve, which grants you an additional action. This action must be taken immediately - as in before anything else in the queue resolves. Which honestly isn't anything unique to it being an action, but still.

If every action you are granted must be taken immediately, and abilities resolve from the queue one at a time, how can you end up with two pending actions?