54 minutes ago, Starbane said:

Rey's player plays Holdout Blaster on Rey and gains 2 actions. Rey activates and rolls into the dice pool. Jango's ability triggers and goes into the queue. The Jango player decides whether or not to activate Jango and roll his dice into the pool. Rey's player gets another action.

Rey has an ability that grants her extra actions. Actions aren't abilities and don't go into the queue to be resolved only abilities and effects do.

Thats my take and no in not sure, but that is how we have always played it locally. That is how it was played at a tournament I went to this weekend 175 miles from home. Yes it is definitely possible both locations are playing it wrong. I'm betting we're playing it correctly.

I don't think this is correct. You're talking about a queue that doesn't really exist.

Jango's card is clear. He can, optionally, activate after an opponent's character activates. If a character gets additional actions after that from cards played with the Ambush keyword, Jango cannot use his ability (assuming that none of the other actions were Jango's opponent activating one of their other characters) to activate after them because none of those other actions were character activations. I don't see any other way to deal with this, the logic you're using would suggest that Jango could have an activation "in the bank" because the game is literally "after an opponent activates a character."

But the text in the RRG for Ambush states that this is not the case. Actions outside a player's turn happen immediately . They're not put into a queue. Since Jango's ability is optional, if it is not used immediately, it would be lost.

52 minutes ago, nismojoe said:

I agree with you. Jango must choose to activate when his opponents character activates. The dice hitting the table is part of the activation. Isn't that how Jabba works? He can essentially reroll one of his own dice when he activates? I don't see how ambush interacts with Jango.

Ah, I apologize. I read something into your post that you didn't actually type. My mistake! Jango's ability is optional, we agree on that.

3 minutes ago, KalEl814 said:

I don't think this is correct. You're talking about a queue that doesn't really exist.

Jango's card is clear. He can, optionally, activate after an opponent's character activates. If a character gets additional actions after they from cards played with the Ambush keyword, Jango cannot use his ability (assuming that none of the other actions were Jango's opponent activating one of their other characters) to activate after them because none of those other actions were character activations. I don't see any other way to deal with this, the logic you're using would suggest that Jango could have an activation "in the bank" because the game is literally "after an opponent activates a character."

But the text in the RRG for Ambush states that this is not the case. Actions outside a player's turn happen immediately . They're not put into a queue. Since Jango's ability is optional, if it is not used immediately, it would be lost.

Ah, I apologize. I read something into your post that you didn't actually type. My mistake! Jango's ability is optional, we agree on that.

But since it doesn't say immediately and it just says after, couldn't he be activated at ANY point during that players turn, following activating a character?

*I highly doubt this is true, but I can see a player arguing this in a judgement dispute.

12 minutes ago, nismojoe said:

I'm not sure whose duty it will be to speak up during a tournament. Like is the Rey or whoever player going to stop Everytime they pull it off and ask their opponent if they want to activate Jango or is it going to be up to the Jango player to ask their opponent to pause their action chain and let them decide if they want to activate? I mean if I was the action stacker, I would not be trying to help my opponent defeat myself.

There's been some discussion on this in the IA forum here, around whether or not it's cheating (I may be mis-characterizing the discussion, I don't believe I participated in it actively) to observe a player making a mistake and saying nothing. In IA, if you're running eStormies, when one figure in the group is defeated, you focus another one. There's no optional text there, it's a required step. But it gets missed. Is it cheating to notice this and say nothing? Who knows.

Jango is a different story in Destiny, since his ability is optional. It would be crappy if one player took their next action quickly, and in the interest of rushing the game, before someone running Jango could take a peek at the results and make an informed decision about activating him. But I don't think I'd be inclined to ask if a fresh Jango was going to do his thing every time I activated one of my characters.

13 minutes ago, Monkaroni said:

Sorry everyone, I just got home from work. I'm glad this is becoming quite the topic of discussion.

This is how it was played at the tournament I was judging. Maybe this person was there?

Maybe. My tournament was in Lawrence Kansas.

13 minutes ago, Monkaroni said:

Sorry everyone, I just got home from work. I'm glad this is becoming quite the topic of discussion.

This is how it was played at the tournament I was judging. Maybe this person was there?

AFTER ABILITIES
If, during the course of a game, an after ability meets its
trigger condition, it resolves following the resolution of the
trigger condition. Unlike before abilities, after abilities do not
interrupt the flow of the game, and instead wait their turn in
the queue to resolve.

QUEUE
After abilities enter an imaginary line once they meet their
trigger conditions, known as the queue. They wait in the
queue until the trigger condition is complete. If the trigger
condition was part of another ability, that entire ability is
completed before the after ability resolves. Abilities in the
queue are resolved in the order they entered it. Each one
must fully resolve before the next one resolves. If, during the
resolution of an ability in the queue, another ability is added,
it moves to “the end” of the queue and is resolved last.
• Abilities enter and leave the queue in chronological order,
based on a “first in, first out” principle.
• If two or more abilities have the same trigger condition, the
player who controls the battlefield decides the order they
enter the queue.

Seems OK when reading the RRG.

Rey with 2 actions activates, Jango's "after" triggers and the owner must decide then and there. Jango does or does not activate. Rey takes her 2nd action.

16 minutes ago, Monkaroni said:

But since it doesn't say immediately and it just says after, couldn't he be activated at ANY point during that players turn, following activating a character?

*I highly doubt this is true, but I can see a player arguing this in a judgement dispute.

The RRG says that any action taken when it's not your turn has to happen immediately. I don't think that the text on Jango's card contradicts the RRG here, so the Golden Rule phrasing doesn't need to come into play.

Or put it this way...

My first action after the game is setup and starts is to activate Rey. I roll my dice. You activate Jango. You see the dice results. You say then, and not beforehand, "that was Jango's ability. I get my next action." I would say that you don't get to see the dice results beforehand in that case, and that your turn is over.

As the RRG states, it happens immediately, or, in the case of Jango's optional ability... not at all.

3 minutes ago, nismojoe said:

Rey with 2 actions activates, Jango's "after" triggers and the owner must decide then and there. Jango does or does not activate. Rey takes her 2nd action.

Exactly.

But Jango's activation during his opponent's turn isn't considered an action, it's his ability. Right?

5 minutes ago, KalEl814 said:

The RRG says that any action taken when it's not your turn has to happen immediately. I don't think that the text on Jango's card contradicts the RRG here, so the Golden Rule phrasing doesn't need to come into play.

Or put it this way...

My first action after the game is setup and starts is to activate Rey. I roll my dice. You activate Jango. You see the dice results. You say then, and not beforehand, "that was Jango's ability. I get my next action." I would say that you don't get to see the dice results beforehand in that case, and that your turn is over.

As the RRG states, it happens immediately, or, in the case of Jango's optional ability... not at all.

Agreed. A Jango player shouldn't get to see his dice result and then decide if that was his ability or not.

I played against 3 Jangos at Boonton and they were all well played and made sure to tell me they were using Jango's ability by saying it beforehand and I didn't have to question them about it. If a player activates Jango's.and doesn't say anything, especially during a tournament, that's their action being used and not Jango's ability as far as I'm concerned.

3 minutes ago, nismojoe said:

But Jango's activation during his opponent's turn isn't considered an action, it's his ability. Right?

Activating a character is an action per the RRG. I don't think Jango's card changes that in any meaningful way. Jango's card is just specific as to what action he can take after his opponent activates one of their characters. I would say that the text within the Ambush section of the RRG is relevant to his ability, based on activations being an action. Otherwise I'd expect his card to say something like, "After an opponent activates a character, you may activate this character. This does not count as an action." If the card said THAT I would be inclined to agree that Jango could "bank" his activation and use it within a string of opponent Ambush actions that happen SOMETIME after his opponent activates.

Without that text, and with the other text in the RRG... if Jango doesn't use his ability immediately after an opponent activates... his chance is lost.

28 minutes ago, Starbane said:

Maybe. My tournament was in Lawrence Kansas.

Couldn't be any more off. Mine was in New Jersey.

25 minutes ago, KalEl814 said:

Activating a character is an action per the RRG.

Taking an action to activate a character, and every activation being an action, are not the same thing.

Abilities go onto the queue to resolve. While granted actions may have to be taken immediately, they still can't be taken until the ability that grants them resolves.

So:
- Play Holdout Blaster on Rey (Queue: HB)
- Resolve Holdout Blaster (Queue: Empty)
- Trigger Rey, and Ambush. Both are After, controlling player decides (Queue: Rey, Ambush)
- Resolve next in the queue, Rey (Queue: Ambush)
- Take action to activate Rey, roll dice
- Jango triggers, player decides to use him. Gets added to the queue (Queue: Ambush, Jango)
- Resolve next in the queue, Ambush (Queue: Jango)
- Take action
- Resolve next in the queue: Jango (Queue: Empty)

The queue is surprisingly consistent and easy to track, but it's VERY different than anything most CCG players are used to. With the sole exception of "Before" triggers, nothing interrupts it. Every effects goes to the end of the line and waits its turn.

As far as I can tell, Jango adds himself to the end of the queue. so Example,

1. Attach Holdout Blaster to Rey

2. Ambush and Rey's after ability trigger, and add themselves to the queue as number one and two

3. Ambush resolves granting Rey player 1 action which they choose to activate Rey with

4. Jango player decides to activate Jango's ability adding it to the queue at the end because it is not a "before" ability therefore it does not interrupt

5. Queue continues to resolve in order that abilities enter so the next thing that resolves is the Rey player's action from Rey's ability.

6. Jango's ability is the only thing left in the queue so he activates

7. the Queue is now empty and the Jango player can take the action for his turn

One other thing to throw another spanner in... I'm not actually convinced that Jango has to decide at trigger time whether to activate.

If we separate Jango's text, it is [After an opponent activates a character], {you may activate this character}.

The trigger text is pretty clear, and the ability text includes the "you may". You don't resolve the ability until it comes up in the queue, so I think there's a solid case to be made that what you resolve is {you may activate this character}, which gives you the choice at the point when it would resolve.

The alternative is that "you may" is not really part of the effect, but rather part of the trigger. The sentence structure doesn't really support that, though.

8 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

One other thing to throw another spanner in... I'm not actually convinced that Jango has to decide at trigger time whether to activate.

If we separate Jango's text, it is [After an opponent activates a character], {you may activate this character}.

The trigger text is pretty clear, and the ability text includes the "you may". You don't resolve the ability until it comes up in the queue, so I think there's a solid case to be made that what you resolve is {you may activate this character}, which gives you the choice at the point when it would resolve.

The alternative is that "you may" is not really part of the effect, but rather part of the trigger. The sentence structure doesn't really support that, though.

If Jango can wait for the opponent to carry out their turn, wow.

3 minutes ago, Monkaroni said:

If Jango can wait for the opponent to carry out their turn, wow.

Well, Jango can always wait to see what the activated character actually rolls. It would only matter in cases of Ambush or other bonus actions where the sequence included a character activation.

Each action is independent of each other. An ability that grants another action is just that, an ability that grants another action. It is not an ability which allows a nested action within an action. Jango cannot activate in response to some other action that happens after Rey's activation. If the player waits that long, his misses the chance.

So again, Jango's ability allows him to optionally activate in response to Rey's activation and must do so within that action, if at all. Any action which happens after that action, regardless of which players is doing that action, is a completely separate action.

4 minutes ago, Mep said:

Each action is independent of each other. An ability that grants another action is just that, an ability that grants another action. It is not an ability which allows a nested action within an action. Jango cannot activate in response to some other action that happens after Rey's activation. If the player waits that long, his misses the chance.

So again, Jango's ability allows him to optionally activate in response to Rey's activation and must do so within that action, if at all. Any action which happens after that action, regardless of which players is doing that action, is a completely separate action.

This actually has nothing to do with how the queue works

11 minutes ago, Mep said:

Each action is independent of each other. An ability that grants another action is just that, an ability that grants another action. It is not an ability which allows a nested action within an action. Jango cannot activate in response to some other action that happens after Rey's activation. If the player waits that long, his misses the chance.

So again, Jango's ability allows him to optionally activate in response to Rey's activation and must do so within that action, if at all. Any action which happens after that action, regardless of which players is doing that action, is a completely separate action.

This actually has nothing to do with how the queue works

To expand, I think this is the rule in question:

When a player is allowed to take additional actions on their turn, they must immediately take them

But you aren't allowed to take that additional action until the ability resolves. Which doesn't happen until Jango's ability comes out of the queue. Nothing in the effect being an action tells you to jump the queue.

..... following the resolution of the current action

No nested actions.

Right - which, again, doesn't apply at all until the ability actually resolves. Until it does, you're not allowed to take the additional action. That resolution happens through the queue.

There's nothing "nested" about this. I'm not even sure why you'd use the term, because this is the exact opposite of nesting. There's a single queue that processes all abilities. When anything triggers, it goes on the end. Whatever's at the head of the queue gets pulled out and resolved. Anything new that triggers from that gets added onto the end. Repeat until empty.

16 minutes ago, Mep said:

..... following the resolution of the current action

No nested actions.

It isn't a nested action really, the action isn't even allowed to take place until the ability granting you whatever action you have, may it be ambush, Rey's ability, or Jango goes through the queue and resolves. I know that it seems kind of counter intuitive compared to a lot of other card games, but if you look through the rules reference section on the queue it lays it out pretty cut and dry.

16 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

Right - which, again, doesn't apply at all until the ability actually resolves. Until it does, you're not allowed to take the additional action. That resolution happens through the queue.

There's nothing "nested" about this. I'm not even sure why you'd use the term, because this is the exact opposite of nesting. There's a single queue that processes all abilities. When anything triggers, it goes on the end. Whatever's at the head of the queue gets pulled out and resolved. Anything new that triggers from that gets added onto the end. Repeat until empty.

Just making sure I am understanding what you are saying. What is considered a final on Rey activating? Because you can't seem to complete her activation if all bonus actions have not been immediately resolved. So is the 2nd action you'd get off hotshot part of her activation therefore Jango could not activate until the whole mess is resolved on Rey? Or is what some people saying true that Jango interrupts this process? I honestly can see it either way and I am really starting to hate Rey as a card. I think a proper errata for her would be she can't benefit from ambush.

At the end my take away from this is never activate Jango off Rey.

@LordFajubi We are saying that if you put an ambush weapon on Rey, you can use one of the two actions to activate Rey. And if you do that, Jango's ability can trigger, but when it does it goes to the back of the queue. So, it is behind Rey's ability resolving giving that player another action. Now that there is nothing ahead of jango's ability in the queue his ability resolves allowing him to activate.

4 hours ago, nismojoe said:

No, that is wrong. When an opponent's character activates, Jango has to decide then and there if he wants to activate and put his dice into the active pool. If he does, his dice are now susceptible to any effects the opponent could play. Hit and run + it's a trap could be deadly.

Oh I tried to activate and he told me to wait until his actions finished.

Thanks abell19. That describes how I thought it to work but is receiving heavy opposition in this thread that Jango must happen BEFORE the second action. I am still leaning on the way you describe but a ruling is needed because people are divided on this one