There's been a ot of discussion about L5R minitature games in several other threads and I believe this deserves a dedicated thread for discussion. This is actually a very personal project for me, so I would be grateful if the critizisms remain constructive rather than ''This idea is bad''.

A while ago, back when L5R was still AEG property, I contacted David Delaroute with an idea for a L5R miniature game. Although only a handful of emails were exchanged, the consensus was it was worth looking into. The last communication I had with him was ''things are really crazy around here for Gencon. I'll get back to you after it calms down''. And then the sale happened, killing the idea before it could leave the drawing board. I tried to pitch the idea back to FFG, but never heard back apart from a simple ''We are taking the sales and the IP very seriously, we have several projects but we are not accepting ideas from independent sources''. It is a perfectly reasonable stance, but it took me a while to get over it. I'm pretty at peace with the fact my idea will never become a real thing, but all the recent discussions made me want to share this project with others. So here it is.

Like it was said many times, it is not a bad assumption to say Miniature Wargaming is declining. Sure, some projects are alive and well, FFG being a prime example with a few successful games, but we are far from the glory days (a thing that could be said about the RPG hobby as well). A L5R Miniature wargaming would face many obstacles. First, with a number of factions ranging from 6 to 15, the costs for producing and balancing everything would be enormous. Second, one of L5R main appeal is interactivity. Being able to shape the story (for better of for worse) is a big part of faction loyalty, and therefore game loyalty. Adding this element would remove control away from the card game, dilluting its influence even more, or add even more story choices, which would hinder the ability of the story team to create a cohesive story (too many choices was part of the reason the story can be confusing or downright bizarre at times). Finally, from a striclty visual point of view, many factions share elements which would be hard to differentiate for the initiated. I argued before the factions themselves could be radically different in terms of playstyles and strategy, but there is an added value when the armies look radically different. L5R might be a fantastical world, wars between Clans is mostly samurais and ashigarus versus samurais and ashigarus.

It is with those obstacles in mind I sat down and designed this miniature game. I will not get into details of the mechanics of the game. I think at this point it is not important. (Although I can if enough people ask for it) I want to show you how, in my humble opinion, such a thing could be done. The first important in my mind was the story. It is what brought me to L5R, and I wanted the miniature game to have a story just as rich and interesting. An alternate setting would be perfect for the job. Not only it allowed independent story choices for tournament winners (and solve one of the obstacle listed above), it also gave enough leeway to change how things work in Rokugan to make it fit as a Wargame. The Thousand Years of Darkness was a natural fit of course. You have an evil, corrupted Empire against a difficult alliance of honorable survivors. That's two factions instead of 15. You also have enough ''minor players'' to create a handful of minor factions that could be added through expansions if the game is succesful. And all those factions have a distinct look. So let's take a look at what could have been.

The Major Factions

The Porcelain Empire

Ruled by the Mad god Fu Leng, the Empire remains a strong and powerful nation, strengthened by the corruption of Jigoku. He is the master of (almost) all Rokugan and has the intention of staying on the throne for a Thousand Years, bringing death and destruction, as well as defiling the legacy of his brothers and sisters who betrayed him long ago. This army would be about samurais of course, but also undead armies, Onis and other monstruosities. Given enough time (and expansions), you could explore the different Clans of the Porcelain Empire.

The Lion, an impressive army of tainted and untainted samurais, bound by honor to obey the Emperor, even if he is a god of evil .

The Crab, filled with mad Berserkers, Oni summoners and monstrous warmachines.

The Scorpion, figthing a convert civil war, one side supporting the Emperor and the other trying to undermine it.

The Snake, born from the remnants of the Phoenix, experts in all things magical, from the elemental masteries to the horror of Blood Magic.

The Dissidents

All the Clans who refused to bow down before Fu Leng were destroyed. Wiping every single samurais of a Clan is much harder than it sounds, however. These survivors banded together, making deals with the lesser evils in order to survive and trying to create, sooner or later, the Third Day of Thunder and killing the Dark Kami once and for all. For the sake of story and coherence, I decided to expand the timeline beyond what was originally written. I wanted the Dissidents to be somehow a mirror of the Porcelain Empire, with an Emperor and ''Clans'', although with a lot less resources. To make a long story short, the survivors met and hosted a ''pseudo-Celestial Championship''. In dire need of leadership, the different heroes lobbied for a leadership position, and potentially the title of Emperor should the rebellion succeed. They also created new Clans, which could be explored in future expansions. The Dissidents are more about heroes than massive armies. They have ashigarus, but cannot rival with the numbers of soldiers the Porcelain Empire can field. They rely more on individual heroics, hit and run tactics and ambushes. The Clans (plant themed for added diversity) are as follow.

The Mangrove Clan, still holding the Isles of Spice and Silk, are what remains of the Mantis and Crane Clan, as well as the imperial families, paragon of heroism and mostly costly and powerful inidividual units.

The Cherry Tree Clan is a ragtag alliance of the Phoenix Clan and many minor Clan families. They welcome anyone and use units with inconventional tactics, weird magicial abilities or a combination of both.

The Oak Clan, untainted members of the Crab who refused to ally with the Shadowlands, as well as a few minor Clans. They are all about survival, able to soak wounds that would kill other units and knowing the few techniques that still remain able to really hurt Shadowland creatures.

The Ebony Clan, something many Dissidents call a deal with the devil you know. Daigotsu used to be the most loyal subject of Fu Leng, but the Dark God betrayed him, killed his lover Shahai and hunted him down like an animal. The only thing he has left his revenge. The Dissidents are wary of the maho-tsukai, but more than once he has shown an impressive resolve and determination to kill Fu Leng. He is followed by many heimins, but also a fair number of samurais willing to do what must be done and, surprisingly, the Yotsu family. (If you thing this is weird, read the KYD fiction The Lesser of Two Evils for details).

Minor Factions

The Kolat

They want a mortal Emperor. Few sane people would argue with them considering the current holder of the title. They are infiltrators and conspirators, members of other factions conspiring to put an end to the Porcelain Empire, but with the added goal of putting one of their own on the throne rather than one of the Dissidents. They would use units from other factions with little twists, like being able to look like something they are not.

The Shadow

The Dragon Clan was conquered by the Lying Darkness. It is now inhabited by faceless monks and samurais, obeying a mysterious master disguised as Hitomi. The Shadow units would be able to change shape, create spawns of themselves and reform after being seemingly killed.

The Brotherhood

Shinseism isn't dead. The monks are still as present as ever, and while they are somewhat allied with the Dissidents, their main goal is not to kill the Dark Kami, but rather saving the common people from death and corruption. Monks would be the backbone of this army.

The Riders

The Unicorn Clan fled Rokugan. They haven't forgotten the vows made by their ancestors though, and plan to get rid of the corruption. They share the same goal than the Dissidents, but clearly aim to put the Khan on the throne. Horses and enhanced mobility is the staple of this faction.

The Mads

Many people were broken by the Second Day of Thunder and its arftermath. Some corrupted, other driven to insanity. Something united them into an army. Under the leadership of Kokujin the mad monk, Aramoro the Beast and Kaneka the Fallen, they rampage through Rokugan, killing and desecrating, but one can only wonder if there is method behind the chaos. The Mads use super powerful units with a wide array of special abilities.

Distribution

Wall of text, I know and sorry about that. Using this as a basic template, the game could start with only a few basic units from the two main factions. (Samurais and ashigarus- which could be used by both, undead samurais, a few Onis, shugenjas, etc.) If this is succesful, they can add more depths (units from specific Clans, for example) and even add the minor factions. Story prizes could be awarded and only affect the alternate timeline. Win-Win.

This is a neat idea; I like setting it in the KYD timeline for simplification (and the stakes are very, very high).

If you could make this dream project happen, would you want the Dissidents to still have some sort of clan-specific flavors (i.e. Dissident Phoenix are very good at magic, Crane are duelists, Crab are professional tough-guys, etc) or would you want those to be more hero-specific (as you stated above, your interpretation of the Dissidents are hero-heavy, since they simply don't have the numbers to compete) - something along the lines of having Uji be a behind-the-lines saboteur, Yakamo being a Shadowlands-destroying machine, Toturi giving leadership bonuses to troops, and so on?

By the way, just because the production costs of a minis game are high doesn't mean it can't be done; a lot of minis companies are starting to take small-run production using 3D printers seriously, and that might be a way to make your project work. Obviously the IP is owned in its entirety by FFG, but nobody says you can't make your own post-apocalyptic samurai-and-shugenja miniatures game...

One thing I'm wondering about is whether a better setting would be the Great Famine, just slightly modified. It could provide the game with four distinctive factions, each fulfilling one of the classic roles:

- The Emerald Empire is the Balanced Faction.

- The People's Legion is the Spammer Faction.

- The Shadowlands is the Powerhouse Faction.

- The Yobanjin is the Subversive Faction.

Then, going with a Warhammer 40k allegory, you can have generic units for the Emerald Empire with "Clan Tactics" aka Space Marines/Angels of Death to further diversify the selection. The Shadowlands on the other hand can have a "Tomes of the Shadowlands" treatment (like the Tomes of Chaos) and become a four-in-one faction (Oni, Lost, Monsters, Undead).

See what you can find about the old L5R Miniatures game: Clan War. It has been OOP for so long, but you never what kind of stuff may be ut there on the interwebs. It has been so long ago, I cant even recall the manufacturer or anything, though I *think* Reaper may have made the figures. It vaguely remember it being being fun, albeit maybe not entirely balanced. (Naga were OP iirc)

2 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

One thing I'm wondering about is whether a better setting would be the Great Famine, just slightly modified. It could provide the game with four distinctive factions, each fulfilling one of the classic roles:

- The Emerald Empire is the Balanced Faction.

- The People's Legion is the Spammer Faction.

- The Shadowlands is the Powerhouse Faction.

- The Yobanjin is the Subversive Faction.

Then, going with a Warhammer 40k allegory, you can have generic units for the Emerald Empire with "Clan Tactics" aka Space Marines/Angels of Death to further diversify the selection. The Shadowlands on the other hand can have a "Tomes of the Shadowlands" treatment (like the Tomes of Chaos) and become a four-in-one faction (Oni, Lost, Monsters, Undead).

I guess it really is very easy for us to fall into the trap of thinking all L5R products need to focus on clan vs clan, forgetting the fact that Rokugan was intended (by the Kami) to be a unified whole, and occasionally the clans remembered that and even acted that way!

Both your idea and Tetsuhiko's KYD idea would be good reflections of this larger-view concept.

Given that you've acknowledged the difficulties of getting a miniatures game off the ground, and that the purpose is to make an L5R miniatures game, I don't know where the market viability would be in an "L5R" miniatures game that is set in an alternate reality that only vaguely resembles L5R. Even at the height of the CCG, KYD was a one-shot (that was part of and fully compatible with the main product line), not an entire co-existing product (and KYD still maintained all the Clans mechanically, while presenting alternate versions of popular characters).

If you're FFG, you would want your L5R miniatures game to be part of the same universe as your other L5R products. If you are not FFG, it can't be L5R anyway. You would just make a game with this theme, use a related-but-legally-distinct story, and run a Kickstarter (I don't know how the GW part of the universe is doing financially, but as we know games with good miniatures, enticing visuals, and high production values can make bank on Kickstarter).

I think the popularity of L5R largely comes from the Clans and Clan loyalty.

Diluting that and presenting an alternate reality would diminish a big part of that core piece of the genre's popularity.

I would love to see your mechanics, however, because I think your idea is well thought out and interesting.