So open for discussion but now that there is another upgrade to pass through shields. I am starting to wonder are High Shield ships dead weight. Well with a slightly baited topic for no other reason then to start a discussion I am trying to figure out how valuable shields are when compared to hull. Now I have heard some say shields are just hit points that don't suffer crits and on the other side shields are just permanent evade tokens now while those generalizations do have some merit they don't quite fit what shields do. Now when looking at some of the high shield low hull damage that ignores shields it a real nasty thing. So when looking at the B-wing you think shield tanks are pretty much doomed because the B-wing is the epitome of the high shields low hull ship. However you have the now ascendant TIE Defender which is also high shields (for Imperial faction standards) but then again that is also behind high agility. So what is the characteristics of shields. Well here are some.

• Shields are only as strong as hull. Doesn't matter it it is an E-wing or a X-wing. 5 hits and both are dead. Once the 3rd damage card gets through even if it is all face down 1 shield point for more or less equals about as much as 1 hull point as far as 3 of the 8 sides of the red die are concerned.
• They don't suffer crits, Well crits aren't as punishing as before because you can choose the less punishing damage deck to go with your list. However that is the thing about shields. a ship with a high shield/hitpoint ratio doesn't worry about crits. Take the Scyk. it is still as fragile as a TIE fighter dying in 3 hits. But where as a TIE fighter eats every crit, the scyk (not counting the stripped lightweight one) only worry about 1 cirt. the second one. Which makes it somewhat crunchier if not tougher.
• Shields can regenerate* Emphasis on the "*" Only for select ships and it is also worth noting that one whole faction has no such ability (outside of Epic). Shields can be regenerated through some unique upgrades but the unique nature means that only one or two ships can do such a thing. Now sure there are other cards that allow for recover of a shield token, and there is a rebel upgrade that allows you to discard face down crits essentially regenerating the hull points, but that is after damage is done and is often restricted by either face up damage or discarding mechanics. One thing for ships with a modest shield value, regeneration makes them outclass ships with a much higher shield value.
• Shields can be ignored under certain conditions. As the meta progresses more and more ways of getting past shields are coming up. From proton Bombs which dealt a face up through shield tokens, to Pilots like Wampa which can cancel a crit to deal a face down through shields. To Kylo Ren who can deliver a pilot through shields. This is the big thing that is weakening shield tanks in the meta. It has been stated if damage is = or > hull value the ship is destroyed doesn't matter if it has 1, 3, 0, or 100 shield tokens on it it is dead. Now ships with these abilities ten to be prioritized because the only list that won't be affected is the classic TIE swarm with shieldless ships. Still it is safe to say more than half the ships in the meta have at least 1 or more shield value. So even if you were a TIE FO list with 3 hull and 1 shield. Being able to ignore shield potentially has the ability to kill a quarter of your list off the start. Now that might be an exaggeration as only certain ships can ignore shields just like only certain ships can recover shields. Not to mention that also specific conditions have to be met. Ignoring shields isnt' a guarantee for each attack But in the right circumstances that could quickly becoming a nightmare for some ships. Especially when a ship has half of their hit points ignored leaving them with only 2 health.

So what do you think about how shields are being affected by the new meta? Is it time to go shieldless like a TIE pilot. Or is it time to go Star Trek and raise shields? What is the best shield coverage. And how are high shielded ships (50% or more hitpoints in shields) are going to be affected?

I suppose if someone built a list around shield ignoring abilities, yes, shields are a waste and some expensive ships are ridiculously exposed to this (E-Wing). Cluster mines are especially are particularly a worry for 2 hull ships.

On the other side a lot of shield ignoring abilities are limited in use ordnance such as bombs and adv homing missiles (are only range 2 and need a target lock). The condition card and Wampa both need a crit to work (I suppose the Emperor could arrange that). Most of them "only" do one face up damage, one damage or you have to roll for damage (Cluster Mines). So unless you use all these in concert that E-Wing will still have three shields and one hull left convention weapons have to chew through. Still I wouldn't like to be in that position!

7 hours ago, Sasajak said:

I suppose if someone built a list around shield ignoring abilities, yes, shields are a waste and some expensive ships are ridiculously exposed to this (E-Wing). Cluster mines are especially are particularly a worry for 2 hull ships.

Why? They still hit shields first, like normal damage...

Maybe he was thinking of Proton Bombs?

Since the dawn of "tank" in game terms, the class has been defined by damage mitigation

Bssically, if you dont mitigate incoming damage then you aint a tank

With or without shields

50 minutes ago, costi said:

Why? They still hit shields first, like normal damage...

You're right, my bad...

These few corner cases would not prevent me from flying ships with high shields. As a player that has used Wampa quite often, I do not go into the fight expecting to get his ability off very many times. If it goes off once, great, but that is not my focus. He is there to be an annoyance that draws fire for a turn or two away from my real threat. Right now, he is flying with Kenkirk and Countdown.

Although you may consider it antiquated and the upgrades overprice the classic comparison between Hull and Shield Upgrades is as relevant as ever.

The question when looking there is "what does the extra Shield get you that an extra hull would not?" There are three things the shield gets you:

1. If you would suffer a "crit" the shield token will get removed instead of taking a face-up card.
2. There are a lot more ways to regain Shield tokens then there are ways to reliably remove damage cards that have already landed on a ship.
3. The ship wouldn't hold as many damage cards should someone have a means to turn them face-up after they are already on the ship.

Looking at those advantages there are getting to be more and more ways to just ignore reason 1. What I call advantage 3 ONLY applies when you're comparing a shield token to a hull increase but without more hull it's no advantage and when #1 is ignored that just leaves #2 which isn't all that reliable.

20 minutes ago, StevenO said:

Although you may consider it antiquated and the upgrades overprice the classic comparison between Hull and Shield Upgrades is as relevant as ever.

The question when looking there is "what does the extra Shield get you that an extra hull would not?" There are three things the shield gets you:

1. If you would suffer a "crit" the shield token will get removed instead of taking a face-up card.
2. There are a lot more ways to regain Shield tokens then there are ways to reliably remove damage cards that have already landed on a ship.
3. The ship wouldn't hold as many damage cards should someone have a means to turn them face-up after they are already on the ship.

Looking at those advantages there are getting to be more and more ways to just ignore reason 1. What I call advantage 3 ONLY applies when you're comparing a shield token to a hull increase but without more hull it's no advantage and when #1 is ignored that just leaves #2 which isn't all that reliable.

Good point, but I also wanted to bring up on what really makes a shield tank. your #2 (and my #3 i guess) is one that means a ship that can regenerate shields is better in that role than a ship that starts with more shields. However there are some mechanics which bring out the weakness in shields thus making hull tanks like Y-wings and Decimators better in the durability category.

Neither damage deck is universally great, especially for aces. Corran didn't care about Munitions Failure or Minor Hull Breach, but Injured Pilot would ruin his day. In the new deck, Blinded Pilot is crippling, and Major Explosions and Hull Breaches aren't a picnic, either.

The ability of shields to block criticals, such as Direct Hit, makes them slightly better than hull points. There are seven Direct Hits in a 33-card damage deck and a few other cards that have the potential to do additional damage. If my math is correct, each shield token is worth approximately 1.25 hull points.

2 hours ago, Nickel said:

The ability of shields to block criticals, such as Direct Hit, makes them slightly better than hull points. There are seven Direct Hits in a 33-card damage deck and a few other cards that have the potential to do additional damage. If my math is correct, each shield token is worth approximately 1.25 hull points.

That might be true in Wave 4-6. But as wave 7 rolled around we started to see some thing. You had TLT which on average did more damage than a HLC or 3 firepower PWT but doesn't give out a single crit. Furthermore AHM might not have been the one to pierce shields but Kylo Ren and Wampa sure are. Of course it doesn't always happen unless you have palp nearby but when they are there the shields do nothing. So with a proliferation of standard damage and the occasionally ability to skip shields those might decrease the value of shields. However I do agree that on average 1 shield point is > 1 hull point. But I think the value lies 1 hull point > 1 shield point > 1.25 hull points.

I'd have said that Shield is just barely worth more than another point in hull value except it those cases where Shield Regen is common and not to hard or expensive. With more things that don't care about those shield tokens or which just deal standard damage the advantage of a Shield over Hull is certainly being diminished to the point they are barely better.

When it comes to its POTENTIAL crit stopping power you sometimes need to ask just how crippling a face-up card actually would be in the grand scheme of things. If you look at the Light Scyk making sure the first damage card you take is face-up I sometimes wonder how big that is going to be. After all, with two cards it's all over anyway so there is a narrow window there. That ship also has the first damage absorbed by a shield and if the first card dealt was going to be face-up anyway its not much of a drawback.

One of the contributing factors to the demise of the B-wing was the introduction of effective ordnance, with extra munitions and guidance chips boosting plasma torps. These are a perfect storm for B-wings - four damage is increasingly likely in today's world, which is perfect to take down all the shields in one shot, and finish it with a second. This threat actually made the B-wing's shields a liability - the Y-wing, which has similar stats except with fewer shields, hasn't suffered nearly as much.