As an Artisan, the Intuitve Improvements talent lets you add force dice up to force rating to crafting checks, spending 2 force pips to add a hard point, up to 2 additional hard points. One specific upgrade to the Manipulate force power from Endless Vigil lets you add force dice up to force rating, spending 1 pip to add either a success or advantage to the roll.

My question is, do either of these talents stack with each other? My thinking is it is one of three options:

1. Only force dice up to my force rating are added to the roll, and I can spend the pips on either cost, or must choose one of the two costs to use only. This one seems most logical, as the F&D Core book mentions only adding force dice up to your force rating to any one roll.

2. Each talent/force power adds force dice, resulting in double my force rating. Either they are separate pools for each talent that are spent on each cost separately, or grouped together. Definitely less likely, and probably ridiculous, but the question is bugging me so I thought I'd ask.

I know the question is kind of useless, since Intuitive Improvements can be used on a check to repair an item as well. Any input is appreciated!

TLDR: How do Intuitive Improvements and Force Power: Manipulate with the Mechanics upgrade interact on a crafting roll?

The answer is actually 3) You can only use one of the two abilities at a time, not both. Before you make the roll, choose whether you're using Intuitive Improvements or Manipulate; whichever one you chose determines what you can spend your Force Points to do.

That said, I personally rule that it's option 1 in my games. I like it better. It's just not RAW, which says only one ability that adds Force dice at a time, ever.

That makes sense, thanks for the input. I have to agree for the most part with you about taking either one, given how Intuitive Improvements works, it wouldn't be that hard to get those extra HPs on a repair check.

Is there a reason you can't (assuming you have FR 3) say "These two Force Dice will be applied to Intuitive Improvements, and this Force Die will be applied to Manipulate."?

When addi g force die to the roll, it's just for determine amount of pips right?

11 hours ago, Pyremius said:

Is there a reason you can't (assuming you have FR 3) say "These two Force Dice will be applied to Intuitive Improvements, and this Force Die will be applied to Manipulate."?

Each of those things (Intuitive Improvements and Manipulate) require an Action to use, and there are no ways to use these 2 actions at the same time. So technically you can't do it.

Some people house rule that you can, such as Absol197 mentioned above. But that can have unseen consequences where two abilities combine in powerful ways. I would suggest talking it over with your group and making it clear that if this does become overly powerful then the house rule may change.

Are you sure? When I read the Intuitive Improvements Talent, it says "When making a check to repair or craft a non-starship or vehicle item, the character may add Force dice no greater than Force rating to the check." Manipulate's Control upgrade says "When making a Mechanics skill check, the user may roll a Manipulate power check as part of the pool." Neither is an described as an Action, but rather as a modification of an Action - in this case a Mechanics check (and each modifies the check in a different way). Intuitive Improvements is flagged as a Passive Talent, as well.

Ok this is complex, referring to different sections of the core book but I'll try to be brief now and explain further if required later.

All uses of a Force Power are "Activate a Force Power" Actions (covered in chapter 6). There are exceptions such as the final Force Leap control upgrade, but this particular Manipulate example is not excluded.

The Intuitive Improvements talent is passive, correct, but it applies to "checks" and in this case it's specifically calling out the action "Perform a Skill check". Now interestingly it doesn't specify the skill, so it would work with the Survival skill as well.

So your left with two different abilities that require two different types of actions. Since you can't perform two different types of actions in a turn your unable to do these things at the same time.

Sorry - I'm definitely missing something here, because it still looks like there's no conflict.

In the section Talent Descriptions on page 136 it says "Activation explains whether a talent is always in use (Passive) or if a character must take action to activate it (Active)." Intuitive Improvements is listed as a Passive Talent; its description indicates that it is optional, and can have a variable effect, but the only restriction is that you cannot add more Force dice then you have Force rating. The only differences between Intuitive Improvements and Inventor (also useful in this context) are that you must add all ranks of Inventor, and do not have a choice in how the die result is interpreted.

To be clear, I'm speaking specifically about the situation in which a character has FR 2+ and at least two uncommitted Force dice, and says "I'll add this Force die to my Mechanics check via Intuitive Improvements and this Boost die via Inventor. I'll use my second Force die to make a Manipulate Power check as part of the Mechanics check." (the Force dice would have to be isolated from each other to ensure the correct result was used in the right place, of course)

On 02/08/2016 at 10:08 PM, Richardbuxton said:

Question:

Can multiple talents that require a combat check combined with a force power check be performed at the same time? As an example using the Executioners Essential Kill talent at the same time as Saber Throw? In this situation I imagine you only ever roll your force dice once, but can choose to spend any of the Force Pips on either talents effects. so perhaps a character rolls 3 pips and chooses to spend 2 on Saber throw, then the third on Essential Kill to gain an additional advantage. I completely understand that 2 Talents that require specific and different skills (eg Hawk Bat Swoop and Draw Closer) could not be used at the same time due to the different skills involved. But some don't specify a specific skill.

Answer from Sam Stewart:

No

In this question I received a very short and woefully unexplained answer, but the start of it is "Can you use 2 Talents that add your Force Power to a combat Check at the same time"

as you can see I gave an example which involves a Combat Check as an Action and a Talent that's passive. The answer was No.

I would really appreciate a full explanation from the Developers on this, since as you rightly point out other Passive talents do apply (hopefully, imagine if Inventor didn't apply to Manipulate Mechanics checks... there would be rioting from the techies!)

There is a section in the force power part of the book which specifies that you cannot use more than your available force dice on a check , so if you have Fr 2 you cannot use more than 2 force die on a single check. So next question can you split the dice so that you use one dice for each, however this is not possible either because it appears that there is wording in section under combined power checks in the f&d core book which although obscure leads to the fact that unless the talent specifically says that it is a combined power check that you CANNOT use the enhance type force talents and abilities, because these only apply to "STANDARD" skill checks. So since you cannot use a standard skill check , which is an action in itself, at the same time as a talent, you cannot combine them .

Now the confusion comes about because a standard skill check is never specified, however based on a reply from Sam Stewart, that you could not use the influence control upgrade ability with Scathing Tirade. Similarly the Peacekeepers similar talent to add force dice to leadership checks cannot be combined with Field Commander etc since these are not considered "standard" skill checks, Where this affects the most is probably piloting, as there are a skew of talents that call for piloting checks, all of which cannot have force dice added (from the enhance piloting control upgrades).

This relevation came as a bit of a shock to me, however if you apply that a standard skill check as being a skill check where you specifically ask to use the skill, rather than the skill being called out as result of something else. Example Resilience upgrade of enhance can be used if you want to make a check to recover from a critical injury, but not as a result of check called for in the hard headed talent.

Actually you may have just hit on something @syrath that I hadn't considered as an explanation; the description of a "combined check"

When making a Force power/Force talent check combined with a skill check it requires: you add your Force Dice to a "skill check". It doesn't say anything about adding your Force Dice to an already combined dice pool.

So effectively once you combine the check with your first power/talent your no longer eligible to combine that dice pool a second time...

Im really jumping through hoops here to explain the Developers rulings, in the end it's done and dusted as far as what they actually say (except perhaps the Field Commander and Enhanced Leader combination which I have not seen an answer to)

So to summarize, it appears that the answer to my question is "No, because Force."

Snark aside, I cannot see any difference between adding Boost dice due to Inventor and adding Force dice due to Intuitive Improvements - other then the fact you're using a Force die instead of any other type of die. The Combined Force Power Check text specifically states (FaD 251) ". . . he combines the {Force Dice} he would roll to make the Force power check with the dice he would roll to make the skill check." Nowhere does it state the the 'dice he would use to make the skill check' may not include Force dice added via other Talents or Force Powers (other then the general prohibition against using two Actions simultaneously that Richardbuxton already identified).

I'll concede the possibility that this restriction is for balance reasons, as I haven't studied enough of the Force Talents and Powers to notice any of the other instances (such as with Essential Kill and Saber Throw).

Since I got led to that question: Does Essential Kill only apply to unarmed combat, or have I overlooked a non-intuitive definition for "operating a non-starship weapon" (currently theory #1)? It seems to me that the correct answer to why you can't use Saber Throw and Essential Kill on one attack has nothing to do with Force dice, and everything to do with the fact that Essential Kill appears to preclude using a weapon and Lightsaber Throw requires using a weapon.

5 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

Actually you may have just hit on something @syrath that I hadn't considered as an explanation; the description of a "combined check"

When making a Force power/Force talent check combined with a skill check it requires: you add your Force Dice to a "skill check". It doesn't say anything about adding your Force Dice to an already combined dice pool.

So effectively once you combine the check with your first power/talent your no longer eligible to combine that dice pool a second time...

Im really jumping through hoops here to explain the Developers rulings, in the end it's done and dusted as far as what they actually say (except perhaps the Field Commander and Enhanced Leader combination which I have not seen an answer to)

That last one is also covered under the same section as Field Commander does not fulfil the need for a Standard skill check, at least that is the only rule I see that fits the devs rulings.

35 minutes ago, Pyremius said:

So to summarize, it appears that the answer to my question is "No, because Force."

Snark aside, I cannot see any difference between adding Boost dice due to Inventor and adding Force dice due to Intuitive Improvements - other then the fact you're using a Force die instead of any other type of die. The Combined Force Power Check text specifically states (FaD 251) ". . . he combines the {Force Dice} he would roll to make the Force power check with the dice he would roll to make the skill check." Nowhere does it state the the 'dice he would use to make the skill check' may not include Force dice added via other Talents or Force Powers (other then the general prohibition against using two Actions simultaneously that Richardbuxton already identified).

I'll concede the possibility that this restriction is for balance reasons, as I haven't studied enough of the Force Talents and Powers to notice any of the other instances (such as with Essential Kill and Saber Throw).

Since I got led to that question: Does Essential Kill only apply to unarmed combat, or have I overlooked a non-intuitive definition for "operating a non-starship weapon" (currently theory #1)? It seems to me that the correct answer to why you can't use Saber Throw and Essential Kill on one attack has nothing to do with Force dice, and everything to do with the fact that Essential Kill appears to preclude using a weapon and Lightsaber Throw requires using a weapon.

Essential Kill was poorly worded, and is clarified here .

There was a thread discussing Force powers like Influence and how they work with talents; can Influence be used with Scathing Tirade, and the answer was no. The general logic that some were able to ferret out was (1) Force powers, regular skill checks, and activation of talents are all separate kinds of actions, (2) you cannot perform more than 1 action at a time, and (3) all Force power checks, unless stated otherwise, are action of themselves, and even using a power like Influence to add Force dice to a Coercion or Leadership check. So, you cannot combine "perform Force check action" with a "talent action" according to the RAI/RAW.

Now, this opened the can of worms regarding Enhanced Leader and Field Commander, and if it applies the same as above. The difference may be because those talents are passive, whereas the Force powers are action, but it's still unclear. And then things like combining Enhance with Piloting actions and talents.

The thing may be, too, after some consideration, is that the original question regarded Influence in particular , and although Influence, Enhance, and other talents all work similar mechanically, they are not, necessarily, the same. (I.E. Enhance is "internal," or only applies to the user, while Influence is "external," and works on others.)

I have to say, this has all been really useful information. I know I only started out asking about one relatively unimportant corner case, but this definitely answers a lot of other questions I hadn't even thought to ask yet. Thanks for the great discussion!

The second paragraph on page 281

Quote

When a character combines a Force Power check with a standard skill check, he combines the Force Die he would roll to make the Force power check. Relevant powers and talents specifically state when a combined check takes place

Sam's ruling makes perfect sense if you consider a standard skill check as being a skill check that a player , and not a talent or ability called for. This leaves the second part to cover the other time a combined skill check would take place and that is when the force talent or ability calls for a combined check .

The confusion only comes about because the force talents and abilities in question only say "when making an x skill check". So going strictly by the last part of my quote this applies when making a check regardless of its origin, however this makes the first part of my quote superfluous, and when combined with Sam's ruling means that skill checks within talents are not combined checks unless the talent or ability say so. This would be RAW/RAI (RAW is a little confusing and badly worded though IMO), this is not to say that if the GM doesnt feel that skill checks from talents could benefit from those abilities as rule 1 always applies ( or is it rule zero).

Even the example of using influence with Scathing Tirade is hardly game breaking as influence basic power to cause strain is way more effective at causing strain damage on multiple opponents with less than the xp to up coercion to a reasonable level, even at fr 2 or 3.