So, I dunno if this is a universal experience or not, but I have found each successive wave has a longer "shelf life" for me. Armada has done such a fine job of keeping its whole pool of ships relevant and viable that it takes longer and longer for me to need new stuff as each new wave is released while I run through all the things I want to try. And this wave, which I shall dub the wave of a thousand squadrons, is taking me forever to even scratch the surface on.

So I guess I'm fine with a nice long FFG style wait until the next one.

And I'd love to see a new campaign again. Maybe with some new titles. Because that may have been the single most brilliant idea ever.

Wave 5 was the most useful in my book...it added a few new ways to "think about the game" as in relay, harder hitting squadrons, strategic, making Yavaris even more insane, and giving the Empire a solid ship, a solid admiral, and an upgrade to make a workhorse really great.

I think as it stands right now, we're solid...

On 2/5/2017 at 11:26 AM, thecactusman17 said:

I'm not sure how well that holds up. Yes, many physically smaller squadrons are cheaper. But many of the larger ships and expansions easily reach into the $30+ range, and are designed to be the singular sources for certain important upgrades and popular characters.

MSRP for X-Wing vs Armada (I'm going to use MSRP, purely for comparison purposes. Yes, you can get Armada cheaper than MSRP - you can also get X-Wing for cheaper than MSRP, so that washes out. Also, if we're talking about the majority of sales, well, most of them are going to be closer to MSRP than the kind of discount prices you can find if you're looking closely. People on forums are not a representative sample of the entirety of sales).

Core Sets: $39.95 + $39.95 vs $99.95, so just to get started in playing, you're talking about more than double the price just to get started in the game. If someone is just getting started, they don't need two starters (in fact, they generally won't know they want both until after they start playing), so the entry price is effectively more than double for Armada. Even in the long-term, Armada is 10% more expensive on core sets alone.

X-Wing Blisters: $14.95 for most, $19.95 for the larger small-base ships. (23 expansions are at the lower price point, 5 at the higher)

Armada Blisters: $19.95 (11 total)

X-Wing large ships: $29.95, $39.95, $49.95 (7, 3 and 1 respectively)

Armada ships: $29.95, $39.95, $49.95 (3, 5 and 1 respectively)

X-Wing aces packs: $29.95, $39.95 (3 and 2, counting Most Wanted as an Ace pack)

Correlian Conflict: $29.95

Epic is the one place where X-Wing gets more expensive. $59.95, $69.95 (x2), $89.95, $99.95, and there's no equivalent in Armada at this time. They're also produced in lower volumes because of it.

So, despite having fewer waves, Armada has more expansions at the $19.95 price point, and the same at the $39.95 and $49.95 price points. It has no releases at the $14.95 price point.

If one were to buy one of each release, total costs would be: $1472.45 over 51 releases for X-Wing ($1142.65 without Epic over 47 releases) $1512.50 over 52 releases for X-Wing ($1182.60 without Epic over 48 releases) and $688.90 over 22 releases for Armada. That translates to roughly $24 $25 per non-Epic release for X-Wing, and roughly $31 per release for Armada. Armada costs, on average, 30% 24% more. That's pretty significant.

As a personal anecdote, I can say I've hesitated to really get into Armada. Exactly what X-Wing expansions I purchase are definitely affected by the price. It's pretty easy to get into X-Wing with only small-base purchases, so long as I'm not a competitive player (which I'm not). Small ships, I can impulse buy, but I want to have discounts before I even consider a large-base ship or Ace pack. Armada, on the other hand, is intimidating. I don't feel like i can really get into Armada with only blister-pack purchases, so there's a mental barrier there that doesn't exist for X-Wing.

There are a few things you should probably consider though in addition to that.

First off, X-Wing has two core sets. Purchasing both, as most players will likely need to do, requires an investment of around $80. Much closer to Armada.

Second, X-Wing has a third faction, which Armada does not. If paired down to only the same two factions, costs will go down slightly on the X-wing side, closer to parity.

Third, unlike in Armada, there is definitely a very rigid X-Wing meta that actively punishes incorrect ship and upgrade choices even at casual play levels. To play at a competitive level, for example, Imperial players actually need to acquire ships and upgrades from those Epic scale ships and squadron repacks. Currently, with the possible exception of the Victory Star Destroyer, every ship in Armada has appeared in a winning competitive list since wave 2 and also at least one squadron from each squadron pack.

30 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

Third, unlike in Armada, there is definitely a very rigid X-Wing meta that actively punishes incorrect ship and upgrade choices even at casual play levels. To play at a competitive level, for example, Imperial players actually need to acquire ships and upgrades from those Epic scale ships and squadron repacks. Currently, with the possible exception of the Victory Star Destroyer, every ship in Armada has appeared in a winning competitive list since wave 2 and also at least one squadron from each squadron pack.

Which is why I'm probably just going to collect Armada and not bother much, if at all, with X-Wing.

I don't want every expansion, I just want the ships I like. But it seems that with X-Wing I'd lose a lot if I didn't pick this ship with these upgrades and it really stinks. Takes the joy out of collecting and gaming with what you like if it doesn't measure up to the current meta.

As long as FFG give us the last missing (canon) ships from the OT in wave 6, or more unique titles and unique sqds to the existing Wave 1-5, then I'll be happy.

33 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

There are a few things you should probably consider though in addition to that.

First off, X-Wing has two core sets. Purchasing both, as most players will likely need to do, requires an investment of around $80. Much closer to Armada.

Second, X-Wing has a third faction, which Armada does not. If paired down to only the same two factions, costs will go down slightly on the X-wing side, closer to parity.

Third, unlike in Armada, there is definitely a very rigid X-Wing meta that actively punishes incorrect ship and upgrade choices even at casual play levels. To play at a competitive level, for example, Imperial players actually need to acquire ships and upgrades from those Epic scale ships and squadron repacks. Currently, with the possible exception of the Victory Star Destroyer, every ship in Armada has appeared in a winning competitive list since wave 2 and also at least one squadron from each squadron pack.

The Vic may make a big come back: Norse explained, the VSD has a few things no ship has: Flight Controllers and offensive slot for boosted or expanded. Decent firepower and defense IF the thing firing back at you isn't a large ship. (Vics are toast vs ackbar).

A vic flight controlling some Imp AA squadrons in support of a small rhymer ball, has truly the possibility of a 5ship mixed forces list.

57 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

The Vic may make a big come back: Norse explained, the VSD has a few things no ship has: Flight Controllers and offensive slot for boosted or expanded. Decent firepower and defense IF the thing firing back at you isn't a large ship. (Vics are toast vs ackbar).

A vic flight controlling some Imp AA squadrons in support of a small rhymer ball, has truly the possibility of a 5ship mixed forces list.

I'm just not sure. It's not the Vic, it's the squadrons and the competition. Imperials have great ships, decent carriers and hyper-specialized squadrons with a focus on offensive. Rebels have amazing carriers, decent ships, and generalized squadrons that tend to be excellent bombers.

In a squadron-focused meta, the ability to concentrate all that power to rapidly killing both ships and squadrons on the Rebel side is pretty critical - especially with defensive bonuses such as Rieekan making it difficult or impossible to avoid lethal retaliation. Maybe we'll see Imps catch up soon, but I'm not sure the VSD will do it.

I know there's a consumer psychology component to it too. It's a lot easier to justify "I'll just impulse buy a few blisters of 15$" than one ship at 50. Plus with Xwing there's more emphasis on multiple cards which justifies spending more money on ships.

Wave 5 is still not out for some countries and you already ask for the next one.

I would be happy when FFG would finally be able to bring out the waves in TIME in the other countries, and not always 4-6 month late.

Wave 4 came out (for us) at the same time as wave 5 (for USA).

5 hours ago, Madaghmire said:

So, I dunno if this is a universal experience or not, but I have found each successive wave has a longer "shelf life" for me. Armada has done such a fine job of keeping its whole pool of ships relevant and viable that it takes longer and longer for me to need new stuff as each new wave is released while I run through all the things I want to try. And this wave, which I shall dub the wave of a thousand squadrons, is taking me forever to even scratch the surface on.

I agree with this sentiment and I think it's largely due to the fact that every new release has some interaction with all the preceding releases. It reminds me of how group dynamics become substantially more complex as you add more people: in a 3 person group, there are 3 relationships at play (A+B, A+C, and B+C). Once you add a 4th person, you double the number of relationships by that one simple addition (A+B, A+C, A+D, B+C, B+D, C+D). Each new release for Armada increases the relationships between the new ships and the older ships, whether due to competition against one another (both between foes as well as for points in a fleet) or from new upgrades becoming available that allow older ships to be used in newer ways (for example, SW7s made CR90Bs an entirely different ship come wave 2, Moff Jerrjerrod gave VSDs a new lease on life in wave 5, etc.).

48 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

I agree with this sentiment and I think it's largely due to the fact that every new release has some interaction with all the preceding releases. It reminds me of how group dynamics become substantially more complex as you add more people: in a 3 person group, there are 3 relationships at play (A+B, A+C, and B+C). Once you add a 4th person, you double the number of relationships by that one simple addition (A+B, A+C, A+D, B+C, B+D, C+D). Each new release for Armada increases the relationships between the new ships and the older ships, whether due to competition against one another (both between foes as well as for points in a fleet) or from new upgrades becoming available that allow older ships to be used in newer ways (for example, SW7s made CR90Bs an entirely different ship come wave 2, Moff Jerrjerrod gave VSDs a new lease on life in wave 5, etc.).

Exactly. Each new ship isn't just bringing new upgrades, it's also bringing in ways for other ships to slot into positions they might not have been ready to fill previously. The recent resurgence of the Nebulon-B Yavaris Escort Carrier is one great example. It isn't just the introduction of new upgrades, the ships around it now complement it's role better in a fleet driving a large herd of slower fighters into striking range.

The problem with new ships is that they either ring something totally new, like the Interdictor and the Pelta, or something that the given faction lacks. See the ILC for example, it's the Imperial TRC boat they longed for. What I want to say is that if they bring out too many things then either every ship will have a hyper-super-mega unique ability, which is bad, or eventually any faction, as a whole will be just the same as the other, which is also bad. There is a very fine line between those two alternatives so I don't mind if they are taking their time to come up with something clever.

13 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

I'm just not sure. It's not the Vic, it's the squadrons and the competition. Imperials have great ships, decent carriers and hyper-specialized squadrons with a focus on offensive. Rebels have amazing carriers, decent ships, and generalized squadrons that tend to be excellent bombers.

In a squadron-focused meta, the ability to concentrate all that power to rapidly killing both ships and squadrons on the Rebel side is pretty critical - especially with defensive bonuses such as Rieekan making it difficult or impossible to avoid lethal retaliation. Maybe we'll see Imps catch up soon, but I'm not sure the VSD will do it.

VSD does some of those things quite well: Moderate ship firepower with DTTs, upgrading the long range AND providing burst at close range.
flight controllers commanding a few Defenders or a small ball of Tie Adv + Soontir/Mauler give you the theoretical tools to wipe out some squadrons.

Those Rebels are nuts busted, but if we just plan to play hard in the face of OP, I'm definitely thinking the VSD is an interesting boat.

What it lacks is the straight defenses to stand up to Ackbar style firepower. It used to lack activations, but DTT increases effective firepower at long and short, and gozantis help even out activations. Moffy J fixes their crappy handling.

Mind you, I haven't even gotten a single play from them, this is theoretical, but they seem... theoretically fun!

I haven't bought the new wave yet. There was plenty of game there for me with the previous wave and we didn't play it enough.

I will definitely buy all the new stuff (when I went to look, 'The Corellia campaign' was out of stock so I didn't buy any of it..) but I'm in no particular hurry.
Looks to me like FFG is pushing their new minis game pretty hard - the fantasy thing, but when I looked I saw they were all unpainted.. not sure that's going to wow that target market..

On 2/5/2017 at 0:47 PM, thecactusman17 said:

There are a few things you should probably consider though in addition to that.

First off, X-Wing has two core sets. Purchasing both, as most players will likely need to do, requires an investment of around $80. Much closer to Armada.

Second, X-Wing has a third faction, which Armada does not. If paired down to only the same two factions, costs will go down slightly on the X-wing side, closer to parity.

Third, unlike in Armada, there is definitely a very rigid X-Wing meta that actively punishes incorrect ship and upgrade choices even at casual play levels. To play at a competitive level, for example, Imperial players actually need to acquire ships and upgrades from those Epic scale ships and squadron repacks. Currently, with the possible exception of the Victory Star Destroyer, every ship in Armada has appeared in a winning competitive list since wave 2 and also at least one squadron from each squadron pack.

If a player is a casual player (and for most games, the majority of _sales_ are to casual players), then they do not need buy more than one core set. That said, that is a fair point, and I should have included that in the totals.
Updated totals: With Epic: $1512.50 over 52 releases. Average of about $29 per release. Without Epic: $1182.60 over 48 releases. Average of about $25 per release. I'll edit my original post to include these.

On the other hand, saying that having a third faction can make the costs go down slightly on the X-Wing side doesn't bring it closer to parity - it widens the gap. Particularly since the Scum faction is especially large-base heavy, so if anyone skips out on scum, their total costs drop pretty quickly.

Meta only matters if you're a competitive player. Which is going to be a minority of the sales. FFG has to consider how much total product the market will bear, and more expensive entertainment products tend to sell less, in general. Thus, it's not surprising that Armada has a slower release cycle than X-Wing.