10 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

A

I was mostly excited about the campaign game. I knew I'd eventually try skirmish, just because it was there, but the campaign is what really caught my eye.

I see some discussion about how FFG could have marketed this better; how they went too far advertising this as a campaign game over a skirmish game. What we may forget is that FFG originally intended to market this as a board game. For the first few months after announcement, IA was in the Board and Card Games forums rather than the Miniatures forums. I don't know all the legal technicalities, but as far as I know, they aren't supposed to make board games -- just miniatures games, card games, and roleplaying games. The inclusion of the skirmish mode may have been a way to skirt the issue and demonstrate that this really was a miniatures game, even though the development team was mostly excited about the campaign. When you look at the success of Descent, it's easy to see how they thought the interest in the campaign would be very high. But I think that IA's placement in the Board and Card Games forums helped solidify people's expectations that the skirmish game was just tacked on. (My apologies if someone already mentioned this.)

The original (or at least early) designers once said in an interview that they had to 'beg' to get the Skirmish added in and it was last minute. Not sure who they had to beg.. but I don't think it was added in as a tactical move as the game was already about miniatures, but I do definitely believe it was a last minute add on. Which is reflected in the smaller player base as a result of the marketing and early game play. The funny thing is they nailed it, they did such a good job (post 4x4), but the judgement has already been passed by many. What we need to figure out is how to get it back in the spotlight to show people "Hey this has changed, it's really, really good and fun and you should dust off your core box and try it out!"

2 minutes ago, FrogTrigger said:

What we need to figure out is how to get it back in the spotlight to show people "Hey this has changed, it's really, really good and fun and you should dust off your core box and try it out!"

The new rules and expansions have been great for skirmish. but I think their best bet is to release a new box that focuses on Skirmish. Or if they ever do a Core box v2

Look how many people come back for 2nd editions of LCGS and boardgames. That's what is needed to get A LOT of people to take look again after writing something off

For the record, I sent a general inquiry to FFG with a link to this thread just asking if they had any input or anything specific to add to our conversation, or even just what they thought of the poll. Not sure if I expect a response but it will be interesting to see.

Again this thread is in no way meant to be negative or a troll or a place to complain, I really want to use all of the data we've collected here to try and figure out some ways we can help the skirmish scene grow. I feel like this game is at its peak in popularity right now and it would be nice to translate some of that success to long term growth.

So as we discuss this topic FFG posts an article about getting friends into X-Wing on a budget to grow the player community. That game has a lot of growth... could we maybe get a similar article for IA? They released some a little while ago about building lists, but nothing about building lists on a budget.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/2/8/x-wing-101-imperial-veterans/

My only worry is that it's such an obvious thing to have considered, that I presume that it has been considered and dismissed for some reason

32 minutes ago, RoyalRich said:

My only worry is that it's such an obvious thing to have considered, that I presume that it has been considered and dismissed for some reason

I guess the easy answer is the core that's 101 right off the bat .. but even if you can build a competitive list out of the core with decent command cards, you still lack the necessary tiles/map files for 'official sanctioned' tournaments. So add in another $75 or if you can go buy the Obi-Wan pack for cheaper to just use your core tiles and the map provided. I know people say this rule is relaxed but there is actually a thread on reddit right now with a guy who lost out on 5 potential players at a regionals because the TO is enforcing the tiles rule. Which is fair because those are the rules, but just sucks to lose that many new players off the bat and you can bet this soured them on it, might not bother coming back.

Assuming we were to try though ..for Imperials maybe:

I think the Command Card problem is bigger than has been touched upon. I think they should be better at including key CCs in different faction expansions. Like Grenade. You can only get it in the Rebel Trooper pack, but it is essentiel for any trooper list, of which Imperial is the most prevalent. So every Imperial player has to buy the Rebel Trooper pack. Why isn't Grenade in the Stormtrooper or Kayn Somos pack as well? They've done it with Parting Blow. It's in like, what... three different packs now?

Som of those really basic key cards should be available infaction where needed. Like, I don't mind that I can't get a Grenade card with a Scum pack, since there is only one trooper group and Scum troopers isn't highly played. Yes, those of us, who doesn't mind buying out of faction for some stuff, will get multiples of those cards, but that really isn't an issue (unless they "take up" a spot for other cards - like a unique dude pack with only his/her own card and reprints might be a bit too far).

I disagree, the mats are the real hindrance. If you could buy Luke Jedi, Rebel Troopers, Hera and Chopper and Leia and make a list or whatever figures you saw from a particular faction and could play on a folded up paper map, you'd see way more $50, I'm playing spur-of-the-moment players. The money is not the issue, people don't mind spending money on something they want to play and enjoy playing, they don't like spending money on stuff they won't play. The core set looks like and is advertised as a campaign game. That's a real turn-off for most people (not saying it doesn't have a great following, but for most casual gamer, Campaign style is not where its at in the USA) Pickup and play a game with cool miniatures works, and x-wing proves it. Even 40k has had a resurgence because you can buy a box and play (you even have to assemble them)

Most people don't use the figures from the core set. They see a figure they like, and they want to play that faction. The backwards screw-ups of the first 2-3 waves also hinder the game. " I want to play Han or Boba " , "well they kind of suck and take up a quarter of your list...", that hurts the game. Let's play on printed paper maps just to get causal games in (the sheet of paper they include is almost big enough, just fold it in two or tape two together and you've got the size of a map, with rules printed on it. And the game would take off. Mousepads - No.

Really, when I think of barriers to entry in skirmish, I think it's quite simply the requirement from Organized Play that everyone has to show up with a copy of each map. Either tiles (thus buying more than 1 boxed expansion) or official printed maps. That is a huge turnoff, and here's the thing: it's completely avoidable!

Yes, you need maps to actually play the game. But as has been suggested, simple printed maps included in the league kits or allowing printed maps (from official FFG image files, thus preventing mistakes).

Now, it's not a big deal if you're all-in like I am (more than 1 of several boxed expansions, and at least 2 of most A/V packs). After all, if you're excited about the game then you're going to want to buy the boxed expansions anyway...who of us would not have bought Jabba's Realm??? So I have no problem buying the stuff, because I already see the gem that is IA skirmish.

But when a new player hears that he's not actually allowed to even play or show up at an official tournament until he spends $75 more than what he spent on the figures and cards for his squad...then I don't blame him for saying No Thanks. It's a completely avoidable problem that is created by a requirement for Organized Play. /rant

Option D. At the time I was still playing WotC's Star Wars Minis; so I got this with the idea of it scratching a different sort of itch.

5 hours ago, thereisnotry said:

Really, when I think of barriers to entry in skirmish, I think it's quite simply the requirement from Organized Play that everyone has to show up with a copy of each map. Either tiles (thus buying more than 1 boxed expansion) or official printed maps. That is a huge turnoff, and here's the thing: it's completely avoidable!

This x 100, we've been saying this from the start, we've got the poll and the opinions of many to prove it, the current system for maps is a huge hindrance to the growth of skirmish. There has to be a better alternative. Like for instance, printed maps, or supplied maps with tournament kits.

Another vote for Option A. I was looking for something similar to Descent 1.0 and had no interest in skirmish.

It took me over a year before I even tried skirmish and now it's my preferred way to play (although the campaign is still fantastic). And ibsh deserves a lot of credit for making skirmish much faster to setup and play; the campaign maps now feel so tedious to build.

I definitely think they should be more lenient on the map-issue and/or provide paper maps in the league kits. It's a huge extra investment / fidgetness that for instance X-wing doesn't have. I like the mousepad maps a lot, but they should not be a requirement - it should be chrome.

E

I think it's difficult for FFG to create a budget article because the way that IA is setup. Rules state that each player needs to have their own equipment (maps, cards, figures, etc). In order to have maps, you need to buy the core system. That's $100 MSRP, hardly a "budget" item. If you just want to buy the maps, those are $25 a piece. So you can get 4 maps for the price of the core. Not a even match-up in my opinion.

Here's my guide on playing IA skirmish on a budget:

Download the hi-res Skirmish maps from Ibsh here: http://ibrahimshaath.co.uk/imperialassault/ (Free)

Print them out on PVC Banners here: https://www.pixartprinting.com (I got them all printed during a sale for $42 with free shipping. Plus you could just pick and choose what you want for cheaper)

Buy the blister packs you want from your favorite FLGS. And any single units and command cards you want from a big box can often be found on e-bay for a reasonable price.

Done

You won't be able to take those maps to any tournaments, but you can play at un-sanctioned game nights and get into it.

If FFG can get around the maps issue, I think the rest of the system falls into place.

Great example thestag and definitely a path to take, the problem is that is hardly new user friendly. When people are looking to get into a game they want directions like "Head down the street and turn right." not "Head 42.5 centimeters minus 36 inches, jump over that parked car, turn right at the second fire hydrant from the left..." etc. Again not ragging on your example, it's great, but it just doesn't have that "Hey I want to play IA I'm going to walk into my LGS today and just jump into it like X-Wing is doing with these articles. That is what this game is missing, it's missing that jumping off point that people can just get in and start going. The core is out dated in terms of competitive lists and as we have re hashed, has tile issues. We need an updated skirmish only release or something that is a much easier point for people to get in at.

FT, you're correct on all counts. If anything, my "budget article" only goes to prove all the points you've made. There is no easy entry, and there is no cheap entry. Let's hope that after "The Escape from Endor Experience" we might see some focus on skirmish, although FFG will probably go into ep.VII or a Rebels direction (I'm not interested in either of those). I'm hoping to see, in the very least, blister packs of figures that are currently only available in campaign boxes. I could go for a squad of Ugnaught Tinkerer's, but I don't need another Davith or Murne skirmish set.

D

3 hours ago, thestag said:

FT, you're correct on all counts. If anything, my "budget article" only goes to prove all the points you've made. There is no easy entry, and there is no cheap entry. Let's hope that after "The Escape from Endor Experience" we might see some focus on skirmish, although FFG will probably go into ep.VII or a Rebels direction (I'm not interested in either of those). I'm hoping to see, in the very least, blister packs of figures that are currently only available in campaign boxes. I could go for a squad of Ugnaught Tinkerer's, but I don't need another Davith or Murne skirmish set.

Yes, it's the non-unique characters (that you can take multiples of) that we need more copies of. As a quick example, my son wanted to play 2x Heavy Stormtroopers at a Regional recently. I was going to have to buy another Twin Suns box to make that happen. Thankfully, Jabba's Realm came out in the meantime and so he changed his squad and so I won't have to get another box for a single Elite deployment card.

Individual figure packs of non-unique groups would be very helpful. Elite Gammorrean Guards, Elite Weequays, etc.

Yea and they don't even need to be anything fancy, don't need a mission or any items or new command cards. Just sell a separate pack with each boxed expansion that contains another set of figures with another set of deployment cards, thats it.

So for Jabba's Realm you could sell a Merc Blister Pack that comes with 2 more pirates and 2 more gamoreans with another elite deployment card, then do the same for the Imperial Jet Troopers. Or sell them all separate if you want to maximize profits, whatever, just offer that option!

I understand their business model is well we FORCE people to buy the boxed expansions to get the newest shineys and that drives sales.. the problem with that model is that you actually need customers to FORCE lol.. your current model is just turning off those potential new players.

They tried that with Stormtroopers. Given they haven't repeated it I assume it didn't sell well.

I'd really like to see a skirmish starter set made available for a lower price. I'd like to see them release 3 separate starters, one for each faction in a Twin Shadows-sized box. It would contain

• Figures and cards for a 40 point army. Similar to Twin Shadows, 2 unique units and 2x 2 unit squads (one elite, one regular), for 6 activations which is about average for a skirmish army.
• One 15 card command deck appropriate to the figures selected.
• One set of dice.
• Enough tokens for one player - damage, all 5 conditions (or 6 if there's a new one in the next expansion), doors, terminals, etc. But no map tiles.
• One double-sided paper skirmish map, plus cards and setup instructions (preferably printed on the map). To make this viable future expansions would need to use paper maps and not require core set tiles for skirmish.
• One Skirmish Learn-to-Play rule book
• One Skirmish Rules Reference Guide - remove all the campaign rules, but include any new (eg skirmish attachments, companions) or errata'd rules

It's probably too much stuff for a $40 MSRP like Twin Shadows but I hope it would be viable at $50.

I could see them taking two different approaches with the choice of figures and cards.

• The cheapest and simplest approach would be to reprint existing figures and cards. Try to stick to units that are actually reasonably viable to give people a good experience. The only thing existing players would miss out on would be the new skirmish map(s), so they could be released in a separate pack.
• The more interesting approach would be all new units (maybe it could be the Rogue One wave). This would mean it would be more appealing to both new and existing players. The only problem would be campaign players who would also want to use the new units. But that could be fixed by also releasing a companion campaign box that contains all the missing cards and a book of missions. The missions could even use the pre-printed skirmish maps if they wanted to keep the cost right down. Hopefully the cost of this plus all three skirmish boxes wouldn't look too bad compared to a boxed expansion plus all the blister packs.

This is obviously all hypothetical, I have no inside knowledge of FFG's plans.

If they really wanted to make it awesome the could also include cards and tokens for other existing units to give more options for non-tournament play and as a teaser of what you get from the other existing expansions. But that seems really unlikely.

I think that idea got really complicated, really fast. It is about keeping things simple, releasing blister packs that contain the figures from the boxed expansions is as simple as it gets.

5 hours ago, incognito22 said:

They tried that with Stormtroopers. Given they haven't repeated it I assume it didn't sell well.

I disagree I think lots of people bought that pack, neither of us has the sale numbers though so I don't think that we can accurately judge this model off of one blister pack either way. I will say though that based on posts on this board, the demand for access to elite cards outside of boxed expansions is high.

1 hour ago, FrogTrigger said:

I think that idea got really complicated, really fast. It is about keeping things simple, releasing blister packs that contain the figures from the boxed expansions is as simple as it gets.

I disagree I think lots of people bought that pack, neither of us has the sale numbers though so I don't think that we can accurately judge this model off of one blister pack either way. I will say though that based on posts on this board, the demand for access to elite cards outside of boxed expansions is high.

Sorry, got a bit excited

You're right that I do not know the sales numbers, of course. I bought the Stormtrooper pack myself and was hoping for other similar packs. Especially HKs.

10 hours ago, FrogTrigger said:

I disagree I think lots of people bought that pack , neither of us has the sale numbers though so I don't think that we can accurately judge this model off of one blister pack either way. I will say though that based on posts on this board, the demand for access to elite cards outside of boxed expansions is high.

I obviously don't have sales numbers either, but I would amend your statement to say that a lot of skirmish players bought that pack. For campaign-only players there's really no value there, whereas a lot of them would probably buy Han, Chewie and other packs that aren't so great in skirmish. And as we've seen in this thread it seems that more people bought the game for campaign, meaning that the stormtrooper pack may not have moved as many as some of the others. From Fantasy Flight's point of view they might just look at it and say that it's not worthwhile.

With that said though, it's kind of a chicken and egg thing (which I think speaks to the point that you're trying to make with this thread). Are the Stormtrooper pack sales number lower because there are fewer skirmish players, or is the real problem that there are fewer skirmish players because they don't release these sorts of figure packs?