So I finally got to play my copy of Imperial Assault for the first time last night. It was very interesting -- perhaps not as amazingly fun as when I played Rebellion for the first time, but still a good experience.

I'm sure people are sick of hearing first impression posts, so I won't go into a lot of detail about how hard the map is to assemble and how dark the tiles are. I do have one question though.

Based on all the threads I see on here, it seems that the core set figures and the early expansions get trashed a lot. Is it really true that you won't be using characters like Vader, Luke, and Boba Fett for skirmish because of poor design?

That seems quite a shame to me, considering there aren't that many iconic Imperial characters like Vader even out yet (in fact, the Empire's guys seem much more suited to a campaign given how generic most of them are).

Our group is probably going to be a campaign group anyway, but I was curious about skirmish's recency bias.

Alot of the units and heroes where poorly designed early on. Skirmish really felt like an after thought in the beginning. Its very different now with all the possibilities and unit corrections.

However, they have been slow to update the heroes from the early waves. Some are just not usable in competitive skirmish because you can't justify the point value for its worth.

Vader is expensive but usable.

luke is very good.

Boba is so so so.

Han and chewy are jus too expensive.

It's worth noting that the next wave of expansions includes a card specific to IG-88 (one of the worst offenders of the early overcosting) that brings his value more in line with his cost in skirmish. Presumably they'll be doing the same thing at some point for other figures like Han and Vader.

It's also worth noting that there's a difference between "not competitive" and "completely worthless". If you're going to your regional tournament then, no, you're probably not going to win many games with Han and Chewie against the competitive players and competitive lists that you'll find there. But if you're playing at home with your friends? None of the movie characters are bad enough to be unplayable in that setting. They're all perfectly usable and fun, they're just not optimal when put up against lists that are built to be as strong as possible.

4 minutes ago, manatee_x said:

It's also worth noting that there's a difference between "not competitive" and "completely worthless". If you're going to your regional tournament then, no, you're probably not going to win many games with Han and Chewie against the competitive players and competitive lists that you'll find there. But if you're playing at home with your friends? None of the movie characters are bad enough to be unplayable in that setting. They're all perfectly usable and fun, they're just not optimal when put up against lists that are built to be as strong as possible.

This is what I was hoping to hear!

Now I just need to find that thread that listed what paints and materials and buy to paint these guys.

Also, Return to Hoth and Jabba's Realm come with 4 player skirmish maps if your campaign group wants a break You can play 2v2 or free for all, they are a hoot.

A printable Hoth map is conveniently located at the bottom of this link:

http://ibrahimshaath.co.uk/imperialassault/

Welcome to the forum

1 hour ago, jscott991 said:

It was very interesting -- perhaps not as amazingly fun as when I played Rebellion for the first time, but still a good experience.

For the record, Rebellion is an incredible game, so I won't fault you there.

But, believe it or not, IA takes a little more time to enjoy. The campaign is an experience, mission to mission- plus, a lot of the more interesting missions occur later. The sample tutorial hardly scratches the surface, it's more designed to teach you mechanics.

As far as skirmish goes- your options are admittedly a little limited with just the core box. But you now have your golden ticket to IA, so welcome!

Hope you like it!

I came in as a campaign player. Now I almost always play skirmish instead. It's a blast!

-ryanjamal

And that might be part of the problem for the IA skirmish scene as far as popularity goes. When I bought IA I looked at the skirmish and thought "looks fun but meh" and never even touched it for the first 4 or 5 months. Then I decided to try a little skirmish test out by myself, and loved it. Like, more than the campaign, a lot more. Maybe this game being marketed as a campaign game is what hurts people from getting into the skirmish, combined with an expensive by in for a poorly advertised skirmish component.

Further proof that we need a skirmish entry box akin to what X-Wing has!

This makes me curious though, OP when you bought the game did you think you would be playing the skirmish out right? What prompted you to try it after the tutorial?

15 minutes ago, ryanjamal said:

I came in as a campaign player. Now I almost always play skirmish instead. It's a blast!

-ryanjamal

I'm the exact opposite, but skirmish is fun, too.

Interested in what OP expected they'd like about the game, too.

Early in the game's existence -- through Twin Shadows, I'd say -- they were overly conservative in the design of unique characters, at least for skirmish. The high-cost characters especially suffer from poor action economy. They started getting it much more right -- largely by not printing so many high-cost characters -- from Return to Hoth to the present.

Still, the only figures unplayable for casual skirmish are probably IG-88 (without the upcoming attachment), Biv Bodhrik, Saska Teft, and Mak Eshka'rey (plus Dengar from the Return to Hoth wave).

27 minutes ago, FrogTrigger said:

This makes me curious though, OP when you bought the game did you think you would be playing the skirmish out right? What prompted you to try it after the tutorial?

Well, my friend and I had a block of about 3 hours to play and playing the tutorial only took about 30 minutes or so (not counting map setup and sorting out the components). So we had some time left over and tried the suggested sample skirmish (where they pick the list of deployment and command cards for you). We couldn't very well start the campaign (we're hoping to rope some other people into that) and we weren't quite ready to quit, so that lead us to skirmish.

I guess I bought the game assuming I'd play mostly the campaign because I think it's unlikely that my friends will all buy their own core sets, expansions, etc. But I was hoping to be able to do casual skirmishes just to learn game mechanics, basic strategy, and to fill nights when a campaign group might not get together (plus, I'd like to play as Leia, Luke, Han, etc. sometimes too).

I must admit that I became interested in IA much more so for the miniatures than the game (same for X-Wing and Armada, neither of which I play) and didn't have a perfectly clear idea of what I'd do with it.

Fair enough, thanks for the response. It seems that 90% of the players I have seen come in for the campaign and skirmish is an after thought.

The skirmish is a great time filler though for you and your friends, and as you get more pieces it just gets more and more interesting. I wouldn't shy away from checking your LGS about possible leagues or casual tournaments either, chances are they would gladly welcome a new player and then you get double the use out of your game

It wasn't until wave 7 (obi-wan, inquisitor) and Bespin Gambit that the designers finally figured out how to balance the unique characters. People freaked out that the inquisitor had 15 health and thought it was too much, but you have to realize that a group of elite stormtroopers has the same amount of health for the same points cost and hits way harder as a group. The recent rule change at least now means they bleed VPs as they die whereas the Inquisitor gets to hold those VPs until the end, but before the rules change there was no way you'd bring the Inquisitor before bringing 2 groups of elite stormies.

I think the original designers were not looking at the total health and attack power of a deployment card when they were designing the generics and unqiques. Now it is understood that there is a baseline of health:points ratio that a deployment group needs to have in order for it to even be considered for competitive play.

2 points = 4 health

3 points = 5 health

4 points = 7 health

5 points = 9 health

6 points = 10 health

7 points = 12 health

For higher points just use multiples of the largest factored multiple, so for example a 12 point figure/group ( 6 x2) needs to have ~20 total health to be competitive. Keep in mind that defense and recover bonuses add virtual health to a figure. So for example original Luke only has 10 health even though his points cost suggest ~18 needed to be competitive, but if he triggers that recover 2 ability twice and gets attacked 4 times (thus negating 4 damage with that bonus block) his health has effectively gone up by 8, which is why he was one of the few wave 1 uniques that saw a lot of competitive play, combined with the insane power of Son of Skywalker. Bossk is similar, just 2 attacks and 1 turn of recovery brings his health up to the baseline of 14 for an 8 point figure and his damage output is way higher than most multi-figure groups can put out. Some figures like HKs don't need to meet this health baseline because they can attack from long range and are difficult for the opponent to counter-attack effectively.

If a deployment card seems like it's not competitive, it's most likely falling short of this baseline.

Interesting, given your theory here how did IG-88 stack up to the baseline pre and post skirmish upgrade card then?

He gained 5 HP, but lost a 3 regen surge that he could use twice per turn.

11 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

I think the original designers were not looking at the total health and attack power of a deployment card when they were designing the generics and unqiques. Now it is understood that there is a baseline of health:points ratio that a deployment group needs to have in order for it to even be considered for competitive play.

2 points = 4 health

3 points = 5 health

4 points = 7 health

5 points = 9 health

6 points = 10 health

7 points = 12 health

For higher points just use multiples of the largest factored multiple, so for example a 12 point figure/group ( 6 x2) needs to have ~20 total health to be competitive. Keep in mind that defense and recover bonuses add virtual health to a figure.

I think this is a start, but it risks oversimplifying some pretty big factors.

For instance, while health is important, abilities cannot be overestimated. A figure that can have multiple attacks in a turn or gets free actions certainly has an advantage over one that doesn't and otherwise has the same amount of health. Surge abilities matter, too, as well as built in damage and blocks.

Then, consider Vader. If I'm reading your list correctly, you'd suggest his health to be 30.

But he has two black dice for defense. So, should we count that as double his defense, thereby making his health only need to be 15? Because, if so, he's actually overpowered at 16 health!

Though, I do get what you're saying. Figures are effective only so long as they are on the board. A figure that's health is depleted is no longer a figure that matters- so, in the end, health is a pretty big factor that may have been underestimated in the past.

52 minutes ago, FrogTrigger said:

Interesting, given your theory here how did IG-88 stack up to the baseline pre and post skirmish upgrade card then?

He gained 5 HP, but lost a 3 regen surge that he could use twice per turn.

Like the devs said in the TC interview, his durability was heavily reliant on the recover 3. If he takes 4 attacks and triggeres the recover 3 twice, his health will match his points cost, but as was said in the interview, because his starting health is so low, it's difficult for him to accomplish that before being overwhelmed and dying. With 15 health and still having the +1 block, it's much easier to get to the 20 base health expected for his points cost.

I think the real problem with IG though was his offense was way too low. Assault usually never mattered because he had to spend an action to get close enough to attack effectively, and he was also spending his surges on that recover instead of damage. The free movement points and 3rd die bring his offense up to the levels needed to justify his 12 point cost.

1 hour ago, subtrendy said:

I think this is a start, but it risks oversimplifying some pretty big factors.

For instance, while health is important, abilities cannot be overestimated. A figure that can have multiple attacks in a turn or gets free actions certainly has an advantage over one that doesn't and otherwise has the same amount of health. Surge abilities matter, too, as well as built in damage and blocks.

Then, consider Vader. If I'm reading your list correctly, you'd suggest his health to be 30.

But he has two black dice for defense. So, should we count that as double his defense, thereby making his health only need to be 15? Because, if so, he's actually overpowered at 16 health!

Though, I do get what you're saying. Figures are effective only so long as they are on the board. A figure that's health is depleted is no longer a figure that matters- so, in the end, health is a pretty big factor that may have been underestimated in the past.

Yes, it is a baseline so it's meant to be an oversimplified starting point, but I think it's a good predictor to keep in mind when evaluating a figure/group.

Some characters are able to transcend it either with special circumstances, like the mentioned HKs, or with an insanely high damage output, like Jedi Luke once you factor in the extra damage he's dealing with his deflection ability.

Inversely, Some characters aren't competitive because they are severely lacking in damage output in spite of having more health than necessary. Wookie Warriors are a good example of this, 4 speed and Melee without reach is so easy to avoid and leave them with no attacks, which don't hit very hard anyway. Vader also suffers from this. I think he actually has good durability for his cost when you factor in the 2nd black die and foresight, but only being able to only influence things 5 spaces around you is terrible. Being forced to rely only on force choke for damage every turn is pathetic for an 18 point figure.

If they make a Vader fix it will probably be something that extends his influence and not extra health, something like, action: push Target figure within LOS 4 spaces, then perform an attack. Han and Chewie however will def be getting more health with their fixes.