The latest official books on the matter describe 2 different phases of Otosan Uchi:

1) "Atlas" describes the pre-destruction city

2) "Strongholds" describes the ruined city in the time when the SPider are still a tainted threat hiding in the ruins.

But what's next?

Do we have any official version about the status of the old Capital during the later Iweko era?

Once the Spider are integrated into the empire as a proper clan I feel there is no sense in them still using the old ruins.

And, furthermore, do the Iweko emperors really allow such a ruin to exist in the heart of their empire for so long? Can they endure for so long such an offense to the history of Rokugan and the heritage which is still in Otosan Uchi?

Do we have any hints about possible attempts of taint cleaning and reconstruction?

I play in a homebrew setting which is about 100 yeas later than the era of the L5R Core Rules and most of games have been focused in clan territories...but now I need to decide what to do with Otosan Uchi.

I feel that the city should have not remained a tainted ruin for a whole century and I know that in the Heroes of Rokugan alternate setting the Tiger clan rules the city (which Imperial Histories still seems to call it a "ruin", albeit as a "cleansed" one).

But, just to take some inspiration, do we have official hints of the Iweko-era Otosan Uchi?

It certainly makes me think the people of Rokugan are a pretty lazy lot.

Sure, you may never get the city back up to the glory and status of the old days, but plenty of ancient cities were destroyed by natural disasters and people started rebuilding them the next day and just built their new city on the ruins of the old one.

When the two nuclear bombs were dropped on cities in Japan, those locations did not become permanently abandoned dead zones-- they rebuilt their cities within a decade. The massive tsunami that took out coastal cities in northeastern Japan a few years ago? The cities were pretty much back up and running within a year and by now have mostly been restored completely.

Certainly, in these cases, they had modern technology. But unless the city had been sunk to the bottom of the sea, the people of Rokugan ought to have rebuilt it before the Spider even had the chance to move in. You had the Imperial Families, the Yotsu, the Kasuga (do they even still exists), countless monks and priests from various temples and shrines around the area and countless craftsmen, merchants, and other service people who called the city home. But not even a small fraction of the energy spent trying to recapture the Hiruma lands was used to try to recapture and cleanse the holiest site in the empire with the most history and importance.

It really does seem far more the results of the writers deciding they want something to be a certain way so had characters act wildly against their nature for the situation they desired to be created rather than what should have naturally arisen from what was already established about the world and how people work in the real world.

I think it would be best to just say that it got rebuilt eventually during some period of peace by a coalition of interested parties, not to its former glory, but at least to the extend of once again functionally being called a "city". It is just a matter of debating how long it would take and to what extent reconstruction would have been completed at any given date.

It is more complicated than that. Buildings can be repaired, but the corruption is another problem altogether.

The Imperial City was destroyed by the most powerful Maho-Tsukai in existence who unleashed the power of Jigoku. The result was a land tainted beyond recovery. And it's (almost) impossible to remove the Taint completly. Now, the Kuni tried and even managed to do so once, and it destroyed all life in a far greater zone than intended. They also tried to bring plants and animals back, but apart from very limited success, the Kuni Wastelands are still a land devoid of life. more info here: http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Kuni_Areno

Using the exact same process on Otosan Uchi would be extremely dangerous. It is surrounded be fertile lands at the very heart of the Empire and cleansing it would risk destroying everything around it as well for countless generations. The decision was thus made to leave it in its decrepit state and wait until a better solution is found.

The next part is about Winter Court IV, so not necessarly canon, but close enough, especially considering we no longer have an official storyline. The Spider Clan claimed they had a way to clean Otosan Uchi from the taint and would gladly do so to repay for their past crimes. They also wanted the land itself as a foothold in Rokugan, something pretty much all the clans were against and the idea died without support. The fact the Spider misunderstood the Imperial Families, which were actually quite fond of the idea, but wanted to keep their involvment a secret didn't help either and tried to push their agenda too soon as a result without their backing made a really good idea fall flat.

Cleansing Otosan Uchi is not impossible, especially in a homebrew, but you have to take into consideration the intensity of the corruption.

42 minutes ago, Tetsuhiko said:

The next part is about Winter Court IV, so not necessarly canon, but close enough, especially considering we no longer have an official storyline. The Spider Clan claimed they had a way to clean Otosan Uchi from the taint and would gladly do so to repay for their past crimes.

I know it's all "unofficial" and I'm sure there are no mechanics for that but, at least in "fluff" point of view, what was the cleaning method?

Using Daigotsu's control over Jigoku?

Areas that are actually connected to the rest of the spreading shadowlands, that big maw through which the corruption of Jigoku spreads, have been purified. Ideally so? Maybe not. But lands lost to the Crab have somehow been retaken and held despite the fact that the seeping, crawling corruption of the land should make that impossible.

Yes, the black rain that fell on Otosan Uchi was perpetrated by the most poweful Maho Tsukai, but it was all of one day's work and that wizard (for lack of a better term) lays dead. It is a singular, lone spot of corruption without a continuing source. Given that it was possible to remove the darkness from places it should have retaken, but didn't--- it should be a far easier task to snuff out a singular isolated spot.

It really feels primarily like the writers simply wanted to change what the capital city was and to create a big "kick the dog" moment to established that the new bad guy who had previously only been mentioned in backstory was the "real deal" and was powerful and dangerous, able to do more damage on just his grand entrance than some previous villains had been able to accomplish at all.. (Although, Iuchiban ultimately ended up being one of the weakest, most inept villains in the story ever-- he never reached the level of threat he was during his entrance again and he ended anticlimactically) After that, it was primarily about giving Daigotsu, and later his Spider clan, a headquarters within the empire itself. You couldn't very well have them always running off to the deepest parts of the Shadowlands afterall.

Things often tended to work or not work within that world entirely based on plot contrivance.

1 hour ago, LucaCherstich said:

I know it's all "unofficial" and I'm sure there are no mechanics for that but, at least in "fluff" point of view, what was the cleaning method?

Using Daigotsu's control over Jigoku?

Pretty much Kanpeki asking Dad to remove the taint.

38 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Areas that are actually connected to the rest of the spreading shadowlands, that big maw through which the corruption of Jigoku spreads, have been purified. Ideally so? Maybe not. But lands lost to the Crab have somehow been retaken and held despite the fact that the seeping, crawling corruption of the land should make that impossible.

I would like to know where you got the info the Festering Pit of Fu Leng got purified, and the lands taken from the Crabs are never completly untainted. It's good enough for the Crabs, who have a higher resistance to the power of Jigoku (thank you Earth Ring), but clearly not enough for the people living at the heart of Rokugan.

38 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Yes, the black rain that fell on Otosan Uchi was perpetrated by the most poweful Maho Tsukai, but it was all of one day's work and that wizard (for lack of a better term) lays dead. It is a singular, lone spot of corruption without a continuing source. Given that it was possible to remove the darkness from places it should have retaken, but didn't--- it should be a far easier task to snuff out a singular isolated spot.

Iuchiban didn't corrupt Otosan Uchi with the Rain of Blood, Daigotsu did when he attacked it while Fu Leng assaulted the Heaven. We are talking an action of heavenly proportion beyond anything that was ever done before....

38 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

It really feels primarily like the writers simply wanted to change what the capital city was and to create a big "kick the dog" moment to established that the new bad guy who had previously only been mentioned in backstory was the "real deal" and was powerful and dangerous, able to do more damage on just his grand entrance than some previous villains had been able to accomplish at all.. (Although, Iuchiban ultimately ended up being one of the weakest, most inept villains in the story ever-- he never reached the level of threat he was during his entrance again and he ended anticlimactically) After that, it was primarily about giving Daigotsu, and later his Spider clan, a headquarters within the empire itself. You couldn't very well have them always running off to the deepest parts of the Shadowlands afterall.

Things often tended to work or not work within that world entirely based on plot contrivance.

I won't argue that some decisions made by the story Team are...problematic, but the fall of Otosan Uchi can be explained rationally without stretching the suspension of disbelief.

3 hours ago, Tetsuhiko said:

The next part is about Winter Court IV, so not necessarly canon, but close enough, especially considering we no longer have an official storyline. The Spider Clan claimed they had a way to clean Otosan Uchi from the taint and would gladly do so to repay for their past crimes. They also wanted the land itself as a foothold in Rokugan, something pretty much all the clans were against and the idea died without support. The fact the Spider misunderstood the Imperial Families, which were actually quite fond of the idea, but wanted to keep their involvment a secret didn't help either and tried to push their agenda too soon as a result without their backing made a really good idea fall flat.

Cleansing Otosan Uchi is not impossible, especially in a homebrew, but you have to take into consideration the intensity of the corruption.

As the guy who adlibbed (i.e. was playing Daigotsu Atsushi) the possible way to restore Otosan Uchi, the idea was squashed due to OOC AEG Storyteam decisions. Spider exodus and Onyx were going to happen no matter how WC4 ended.

The plotline started when players in various Clans reacted to a line of fluff in Gyushi Kageto's gift to the Empress. The line mentioned using the purified ashes of Otosan Uchi in forging the gifted sword. All the other Clans suddenly believed that one of our GM assigned goals was claiming Otosan Uchi/getting a foothold in the Empire and we had knowledge on how to purify the tainted land.

After a clash between me and the Tortoise player during the Winding-Water Banquet, we (the Spider Clan players) decided that the Tortoise was enemy number 1 and after a bit of research realized that the Tortoise had stewardship of Otosan Uchi. Combining how the other clans were reacting, our new enemy minor clan and this new info we decided that reclaiming Otosan Uchi was a cool player created major goal since our other goals were kinda lackluster.

During a meeting with the Unicorn we talked started being asked about and being the primary active player at the time and asked "What makes now different when we have been unable to purify Otosan Uchi for so long?" I responded by using a Macguffin that the Spider had been given in Emperor and was in the hands of the Imperials (It was giving Seppun Teshan Pure untainted Maho-tsuki blood magic): The Blood of the Preserver.

Things ramped up and we put it before the Dias. GMs killed it but said they hoped that the Storyteam would run with it.

1 hour ago, LucaCherstich said:

I know it's all "unofficial" and I'm sure there are no mechanics for that but, at least in "fluff" point of view, what was the cleaning method?

Using Daigotsu's control over Jigoku?

Cleaning method was use of the Blood of Preserver. It is the method used in the unoffical WC5's backstory and why the Emerald Spider (led by Susumu Shibatsu) are based there

15 minutes ago, Tetsuhiko said:

I would like to know where you got the info the Festering Pit of Fu Leng got purified, and the lands taken from the Crabs are never completly untainted. It's good enough for the Crabs, who have a higher resistance to the power of Jigoku (thank you Earth Ring), but clearly not enough for the people living at the heart of Rokugan.

That isn't what I was saying.

I was talking about the Hiruma lands. When the story of the game first started, they had been taken over by the Shadowlands. The Shadowlands were being spawned from the festering pit and they naturally expanded bit by bit. The Hiruma lands were on the wrong side of the wall and they ended up being taken over.

At a point in the story, I recall that they were retaken and purified. Thing is that the festering pit was still out there and even if that area was purified, the Shadowlands should have just crept right back in as they were still being pushed and growing in that direction.

Kind of like if you had a hedge and the hedge grew enough that it blocked a walkway. Even if you cut the hedge back with one big afternoon of work, the hedge will just grow back and block the walkway again.

But, in the case of Otosan Uchi, it is like you are talking about a hedge with no roots. If you cut it back, there is no place for it to "spawn from" equivalent to the festering pit. That should make it considerably easier to cleanse. You don't have a spawn point replenishing it and thus hindering your progress.

22 minutes ago, Tetsuhiko said:

Iuchiban didn't corrupt Otosan Uchi with the Rain of Blood, Daigotsu did when he attacked it while Fu Leng assaulted the Heaven. We are talking an action of heavenly proportion beyond anything that was ever done before....

I won't argue that some decisions made by the story Team are...problematic, but the fall of Otosan Uchi can be explained rationally without stretching the suspension of disbelief.

Okay it seems I have mixed up events then. As far as I recalled, at the end of Gold Edition, or rather the start of Diamond, after Daigotsu had been beaten by the Winds and was licking his wounds with Shahai and Chuda Mishime, a corrupting rain fell on Otosan Uchi and that is what caused the capital to ultimately be abandoned and at the same time Iuchiban showed up, introduced himself, slapped Daigotsu aside and took his throne proclaiming that he was in charge now. And... then he really didn't do much of anything until Daigotsu got him back and defeated him. The assault on the heavens was something that happened after that point.

But, this is years ago and I am foggy on it. So I will assume your timeline is correct.

I still think that the Empire abandoned hope of rebuilding the old capital far too quickly and easily and the reason they did that was so the story team could demonstrate the strength of the bad guys and ultimately had a place for the bad guys to hang out that wasn't way outside the imperial borders. It seems like "ownership of Otosan Uchi" would have been offered as some big tournament prize at some point otherwise. The idea of altering the Shadowlands into a faction that could be defeated by dishonor and fell more in line with the mechanics of the other factions was probably in the pipeline for a while before being introduced.

And, as harsh as I might be on some of the things that happened in the story-- no one really could have done any better. More often than not they would be told during the evening the results of some story prize that someone somewhere won with nothing but the barebones of setting and some of the involved characters prior to the point. Or the CCG team decides to change something substantial in how the game works in the name of creating a better game that really needed to be reflected in the story... Or they write something forgetting that someone else, or even they themselves, had earlier written that things were supposed to work in a different way in some earlier 10-page story they were trying to crank out in 4 hours some other time....

Or, in terms of the RPG, some faulty assumptions are made based on what had been introduced in the story so far or they have what they think is a good idea for a story or clan or something, but its not really so fleshed out and then they implement it and don't realize it contradicts things.... Or, they decide to do some more research (or fail to research) some aspect of Japanese culture and whether what they find is true or misconceptions (and there are plenty of common misconceptions about samurai, even in Japan) and decide to write that this is the way it is... even if it makes no sense because they are mixing up different era's cultures or is very contradictory to what had already been shown....

Honestly, under the constraints they had, time, energy, and mixed messages from people handling various aspects, it is a miracle anyone was able to do as well as they did.

But the result is that "canon" is a bit more in flux than anyone would probably care to admit and the specifics of cultural attitudes, the nuisances of the law and even sometimes events were prone to getting retconned and characters in the world often acted in service to the plot rather than the plot being dictated by the characters.

Just up and abandoning the most important location in all the empire as completely lost and no one besides a small ronin family making even a token effort to reclaim it with everyone just shrugging and moving on as if it were no big thing... it just really does fly in the face of the whole "we cherish history, tradition and our ancestors above everything else and will sacrifice all our worldly possessions and lives in the name of service to these things" that is so often used as the primary justification for the samurai in the world acting irrationally. Here we have a case where the rational thing to do and what we have been told they are irrational about both coincide to a situation where the correct solution is.... purify and rebuild Otosan Uchi, no matter the cost...

But, if they did do that... and they could succeed in doing that, as they had previously succeeded in similar tasks, then the location would not have been available for the purpose for which having it corrupted and ruined was done in the first place. So all the clans just ignore everything their stated culture says they should do, just decide to live with a giant corrupted wasteland at the heart of their nation doing who knows how much harm without trying to repair it... and, by doing so, the Spider Clan has a place to live. Instead of using their forces to fix what is a festering wound in their nation and rebuild the monuments of their national origin and ancestors accomplishments, they decide to focus on overseas expansion.

more or less, you have just described all my doubts about not reclaiming Otosan Uchi....leaving it as a ronin-guarded ruin is simply stupid.

2 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Just up and abandoning the most important location in all the empire as completely lost and no one besides a small ronin family making even a token effort to reclaim it with everyone just shrugging and moving on as if it were no big thing... it just really does fly in the face of the whole "we cherish history, tradition and our ancestors above everything else and will sacrifice all our worldly possessions and lives in the name of service to these things" that is so often used as the primary justification for the samurai in the world acting irrationally. Here we have a case where the rational thing to do and what we have been told they are irrational about both coincide to a situation where the correct solution is.... purify and rebuild Otosan Uchi, no matter the cost...

you're missing the point of that story. the loss of Otosan Uchi was to demonstrate that permanent loss was possible. To show that the shadowlands could wound in real, tangible ways. You say "clean at no matter the cost" like the its just a matter of continuing to put quarters into a washing machine, but the way the story established the tainting, it was all but irrevocably fouled. It would have required a celestial scale act to purify it. Which, fine, well within the story team's purview to do, but it would have a) dramatically cheapened one of the most epic story arcs in the game and b) thrown away the point i referenced before: Rokugan can lose. The corruption of Otosan Uchi is a constant reminder to the imperial family, whoever they are, that they are fallible. I think thats a powerful piece of narrative, far more powerful than "rokugan cherishes tradition and loves to sacrifice" which is a story that gets played out ad nauseam across the history of l5r.

i think the second pit was a second swing as this point, but in that case it was kind of a whiff. they never really played it very well. it was never demonstrated as being a substantial threat, and it wasn't ever show to really "cost" rokugan anything.

Is it safe to say that if Otosan Uchi was purged of the taint that it would turn into another wasteland? Just going by what the Kuni family had to do within their lands to get rid of the taint.

Cielago, I understand Your line of reasoning and to a certain Point I agree but having later on the Spider becoming part of the empire after what Daigotsu did (and even forgetting Otosan Uchi) was maybe Too much and the sense of compromise somehow diminished the tragedy inherent in the destruction of the capital.

But maybe that's just me.

15 minutes ago, BlindSamurai13 said:

Is it safe to say that if Otosan Uchi was purged of the taint that it would turn into another wasteland? Just going by what the Kuni family had to do within their lands to get rid of the taint.

i doubt it, frankly. i think thats the threat they use to explain why it can't be done the "usual" way. i suspect that if it had ever/will ever be done, it will be via divine fiat, and without consequences. which will either be lazy writing or the payoff for a long storyline. whether those works from a story standpoint is anyone's guess.

1 minute ago, LucaCherstich said:

Cielago, I understand Your line of reasoning and to a certain Point I agree but having later on the Spider becoming part of the empire after what Daigotsu did (and even forgetting Otosan Uchi) was maybe Too much and the sense of compromise somehow diminished the tragedy inherent in the destruction of the capital.

But maybe that's just me.

i think it actually enhanced it, personally. its a twist of the knife. Daigotsu destroyed the heart of Rokugan, and now his son stands in its replacement. Those bearing his name walk brazenly through the streets of the empire. Imagine the fury that must inspire in those who remember otosan uchi? no wonder the spider are so unpopular! especially as generations pass and otosan uchi fades from memory. the older generations, and the true traditionalists grind their teeth to watch the youth forget the sin, because its out of sight, and out of mind.

31 minutes ago, BlindSamurai13 said:

Is it safe to say that if Otosan Uchi was purged of the taint that it would turn into another wasteland? Just going by what the Kuni family had to do within their lands to get rid of the taint.

Not necessarily. One of the ideas behind "Using the Blood of the Preserver to cleanse Otosan Uchi" was that roughly a year after the lands effected by the Blood were turned into a purified wasteland they experienced unprecedented bountiful growth.

1 hour ago, BlindSamurai13 said:

Is it safe to say that if Otosan Uchi was purged of the taint that it would turn into another wasteland?

Well, this isn't necessary relevant for a city if you think about it. Yeah, the place is gonna be dusty, but I can't really think of any other problem that can't be solved with proper pavement and potted plants.

20 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Well, this isn't necessary relevant for a city if you think about it. Yeah, the place is gonna be dusty, but I can't really think of any other problem that can't be solved with proper pavement and potted plants.

the mental picture of the spider running around otosan uchi with a bunch of potted ferns and acting like they've purified it cracks me up

1 hour ago, cielago said:

the mental picture of the spider running around otosan uchi with a bunch of potted ferns and acting like they've purified it cracks me up

It's totally something the Susumu would do.

"Of course it's purified. As you can plainly see. No, don't touch, just look. See? Totally purified. What did I tell you?"

I always hated Otosan Uchi being abandoned to begin with. For traditionalists like Rokugani to drop their sacred capital, the place where the Kami first touched earth, is absurd.

And I refuse to swallow the bull about it being tainted or damaged beyond recovery. Let's review what happened to the city in the span of a few years: the Scorpion Coup, soon followed by the Crab clan storming the city and taking it during Kisada's march, immediately followed by Fu Leng possessing the Emperor and turning the city into a hell on earth, complete with the commoners being forced to sacrifice their own in tainted rituals for Fu Leng's pleasure. The Shadowlands horde is also mentioned to have called the city home during this time, in the Imperial Histories, if I recall. If you check the dates, this nightmare rule lasted for about a year. Finally, there was the climatic battle during the Second Day of Thunder.

...yet, there's no mention of the city being tainted or corrupted. Then, a few years later, Daigotsu's able to, in one day, do more damage than FU LENG HIMSELF can do in a year and leave the city in an unrecoverable, tainted mess. And people wonder why I refuse to accept everything regarding Daigotsu as cannon.
Seriously, if you want Otosan Uchi to be recovered, just have it be recovered. You could just mention the Lion Clan's call that the city was tainted beyond saving as being premature. Not like they're the experts on that subject anyway.

And as for the idea that the Shadowlands Horde had to wound Rokugan permanently, remember that the Hantei family, over 1000 years old, was ended by Fu Leng himself, basically. The Shadowlands took the Wall; even if only for a time, the very idea of that burns forever in the heart of any Crab. We really don't need the loss of the capital to remind us that the Shadowlands are bad news that should be taken seriously (I'm not counting the foolishness of the Iweko's so-called dynasty, of course. They seem to have the memory of goldfish in that regard.)

And, it should be worth mentioning... even if the city is "tainted", if the Spider Clan has somehow taken up residence and is not exactly affected... why exactly would they leave it in ruins? Sure, I guess you don't want to move a large number of peasants into the city, but how exactly are the "Spider Clan" living there in the first place without servants if you cannot have commoners in the city without them transforming into zombies or what have you.

Daigotsu and crew somehow built up some pretty impressive structures in the heart of the Shadowlands without much in the way of resources or a functional, sane work force. Surely with the retainers of the Spider Clan, they can rebuild a single city-- even if it is piece by piece.

If the land is turned into "wasteland", the worst I can see occurring is well... I guess you aren't going to be making as nice gardens as you used to? Cities kind of are inherently wastelands by default, you don't exactly try to grow crops there.

It'll be interesting to see what FFG even does in regards to stuff like this. They pretty much have free reign to reset the setting to whatever degree they want.

Originally the game started with only 6 clans with 3 families each (although I suspect that the clans were originally meant to have many other families beyond the 3 named in the card game, they just wanted to reuse a lot of the same names to give the clan consistency). Starting the whole thing from scratch with 10 clans with anywhere between 3 to 6 families each, at least 3 Imperial Families and a dozen Minor Clans is tough enough....

From what I gather, the whole idea of a Spider Clan is going to be dropped (so I guess we can also imagine there will be no "dishonor" victory condition) otherwise I could see the Otosan Uchi being left corrupted in order to give the Spider Clan a headquarters. But if the game is going to go on as though the Spider never existed, maybe they won't...

Do you imagine they are going to keep the second festering pit or the New World or other complications in the setting created by the last several expansions?

I feel like they are going to want to restart with nearly as clean, crisp and clear of a sheet as the Clan Wars did. I mean, if I was relaunching the game.. I would want to do it in as simplified version of the setting as I could so that I could present things without having to make a dozen caveats. As of the last expansion, it isn't even really clear who the villain or next threat to peace could possibly be.

Some of the issues could possibly be resolved with a big time skip... just... not nearly enough of them.

Anyway, if one wants to play in a version of Rokugan where Otosan Uchi has been cleansed, but probably will just be a shell of its former self and more of a historical relic/pilgrimage destination than a bustling city, it entirely makes sense that such a thing would be possible eventually. I wouldn't even fret too much over the exact detail of how it was done, if it was done little by little, measure by measure over a long period of time rather than some sudden, dramatic event then it probably doesn't really matter.

And I am glad I am not the only one who thinks it really seems wildly out of character for the Rokugani to just shrug their shoulders and give up on a cause like that.

5 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Cities kind of are inherently wastelands by default, you don't exactly try to grow crops there.

Actually, that's not at all uncommon for historical cities. It's smaller-scale agriculture than we associate the word now, but keeping a substantial vegetable garden and some livestock on a plot of urban land? Sure.

5 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

From what I gather, the whole idea of a Spider Clan is going to be dropped (so I guess we can also imagine there will be no "dishonor" victory condition) otherwise I could see the Otosan Uchi being left corrupted in order to give the Spider Clan a headquarters. But if the game is going to go on as though the Spider never existed, maybe they won't...

Where have you been hearing that from? Unless you have direct word from FFG staff working on L5R most of what you heard was likely anti-Spider fan grousing.

51 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

Where have you been hearing that from? Unless you have direct word from FFG staff working on L5R most of what you heard was likely anti-Spider fan grousing.

It's just good sense, telling the largest clan fanbase, “Hey guys, your team? No longer exists.” I see no reason this could in any way hurt the relaunch of the game.

5 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

Where have you been hearing that from? Unless you have direct word from FFG staff working on L5R most of what you heard was likely anti-Spider fan grousing.

Well, the products page no longer reflects this, but about a year ago when they were stating how the game format would take place...

There was going to be the main game. And then an expansion pack revolved around Shadowlands at the same time or just shortly afterwards.

If there is a whole "Shadowlands" expansion, that heavily implies that "Shadowlands" is going to be a faction as opposed to having transformed them into just another clan that has effectively exclusive access to far more cards than any other.

But, as I said, there seems to be nothing on the page reflecting that there is going to be a Shadowlands expansion pack any more. So perhaps they changed their mind at some point.

I see that it also mentions the colonies specifically in the description of the product, so I suppose that indicates they aren't necessarily dropping any of the dead-end ideas that popped up in the last few expansions to the game.

Also, the first set is called "A New Emperor Rises", so maybe they are picking up with Kanpeki taking the throne? Maybe then it will be a reflection of Clan Wars, the bad guy has taken the throne and it will be up to a rebellion to take him down.

It just seems like way too much chaos to try to restart a game and sell people on. It isn't going to work out if one has to know all the story developments over 20+ years to at all comprehend what is supposed to be happening in the game.