Pretty much the same thing. If you don't want to play with a set's cards, you don't. And right now those mind probes run the same price as the whole starter. You might be trying to compare pauper magic with high end LCG's decks.

That was a rhetorical question; LCGs don't have secondary markets. You have to buy their core sets and expansions, and we both know that's not true of Destiny. Again, you're either being disingenuous or you're just flat out obtuse. The amount of misinformation being spread about Magic and the CCG model in general is becoming quite tiresome.

Does anyone actually have something substantive to add about LCGs?

3 hours ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

That was a rhetorical question; LCGs don't have secondary markets. You have to buy their core sets and expansions, and we both know that's not true of Destiny. Again, you're either being disingenuous or you're just flat out obtuse. The amount of misinformation being spread about Magic and the CCG model in general is becoming quite tiresome.

Does anyone actually have something substantive to add about LCGs?

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with Mep. The LCG model is obviously much more consumer friendly. Buying singles to make a single deck might be more economical after a game's been out for awhile, but that's working on the assumption that you're only trying to flesh out a single deck. Most players like to have all of the cards so they can make and play different decks, or change up their existing deck in a variety of ways to test out new things.

For everyone who wants to own all the cards, which I would guess is the majority of players, there's no contest between the LCG model and the CCG model. Netrunner, for example, would be expensive to buy into now, but .... hold on, now that I think about it, buying a play set of everything that's come out in that game to date is probably cheaper and also way easier than just getting a single playset of all of SWD Awakenings. Wait, yeah..I just checked it, owning a play set of every Netrunner card to have come out since the game's inception (2012) is cheaper than the market price for a play set of Awakenings. The average monthly cost of owning everything would have been about $11.40.

Let me break it down another way; you're glad you can buy the individual cards you want, like a Jetpack for about $12? That's the cost of a Netrunner expansion that'd include a play set (3) of 20 unique cards (60 cards in total), so even if you only wanted the one of those 20 play sets, at least you'd have 3 cards for your deck, and not just one, as in the instance of the Jetpack. Now consider Darth Vader. The cost of owning our darkly clad Sith Lord is roughly equivalent to 4 Netrunner expansions, or 240 individual cards, consisting of 80 different play sets . But lucky you, you're allowed to buy singles, right? How economical . Hope you didn't want a second Vader.

LCGs are so consumer friendly that a secondary market doesn't exist because it would be pointless. There'd be no profit margin for resellers because people would always rather buy directly from the source, because it's so cheap to get your hands on everything.

You're a fan of CCGs, and that's fine. I'm glad for you. Stop pretending like it's a model that's good for anyone but the publisher. That's either -

3 hours ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

disingenuous or ... flat out obtuse.

You realize that when you say "most players" that's simply a reflection of your own preferences, right? Another vocal minority member who can't see the forest for the trees. I come from a large community of card gamers, and I don't know many of them who are devout completionists. That tends to happen with very large card pools. I'm curious, which games have you played and how long have you played them for?

Do you know that they stuff those monthly $15 releases full of unplayable junk? Comparing that to buying < $1 commons/uncommons is the very definition of disingenuous. Have fun sorting through 80 different playsets that you paid for and will never touch again.

Well Magic is on the down side right now, so supply far out strips demand, so prices are very cheap for it. Destiny is on the other end of the spectrum. So yeah, right now, if you only need 4 or 8 or even maybe 16 new cards to update your current standard deck, sure magic from the secondary market seems fairly cheap. It hasn't always been that way. Often it has been more like Destiny right now, where you can spend $200 on singles easily to build a deck. I don't think there is any way to spend that much on an LCG after just one release.

I like how I was completely ignored when I mentioned Conquest. Three core sets at $40 a piece was $120. Unless you're buying all of the legendaries, I don't know of many Destiny decks that are going to exceed that right now. Having done some research, it looks like a complete set of Netrunner would cost well over $500 at this point. As of a year or two ago, the top decks ranged in price from $130 to almost $300. I once saw someone post that his LotR deck cost $400. Remind me again of how much Jango/Veers costs to build.

I will agree with you both that the dynamics are slightly different for Destiny because a) we're still at the outset of the game (only 160+ cards), and b) we're suffering from massive product shortages. Once those two things are resolved singles prices will deflate, but it still probably won't be feasible to make every possible deck. That's more a consequence of the overall number of cards than it is the marketing paradigm. Once people become more accustomed to the CCG model they'll realize that singles purchases are far more economical for assembling specific decks, though that won't stop them from impulse buying boosters.

My first purchase for Destiny was singles to put together a 'cheap' Ackbar/Leia deck to try it out. It has zero legendaries and ran $120, and yes, still cheap. I then went on to purchase 3 boxes (boosters are cheaper than the average cost of a rare after all), a few boosters and 2 of each starter plus a few cheap singles to finish up a couple of decks. This is just for the initial release. Instead, I guess I could have bought a complete set of Netrunner, which comprises many sets over many years, and had enough left over for lunch too.

The cost of getting into any new game, especially these types of games, is rather extreme. A long term magic player could probably just trade his way into a few new cards to round out a deck. Getting into a well established LCG may not be cheap, but getting into a CCG can get stupid silly expensive. And if $400 is the most extreme example of an LCG deck, then well, it is thousands of dollars cheaper than some of the extreme modern mtg decks. No need to talk about vintage, that is something else entirely.

Uh huh, but that's not an apples to apples comparison. Those cards are out of print, so... well, do I really need to give a primer on how supply and demand work? Never mind the fact that we're discussing barriers to entry for new card games, and nobody with a leg to stand on brings up modern/vintage/legacy as their first point of comparison. Wizard's reserved list is certainly 'something else entirely,' and it also doesn't factor into this conversation at all.

What's in your Leia/Ackbar deck? The combined cost of the characters is only $16, so those other 30 cards must have been awfully expensive.

1 minute ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Uh huh, but that's not an apples to apples comparison. Those cards are out of print, so... well, do I really need to give a primer on how supply and demand work?

Exactly. This is why LCGs are cheaper. Now you are starting to understand. That is the exact comparison between a LCG and a CCG and why one is far cheaper than the other. I can buy everything I would ever need for netrunner cheaper than a play set of Tarmogoyf, even after they got reprinted and mic drop.

You can buy everything you'll ever need and pay for everything you'll never use just for the privilege. Congratulations. Care to address the rest of my post? Your mic drop seems a bit premature, friend, especially considering how foolhardy it is for you to steer the conversation towards modern. People don't usually admit to making poor comparisons and then declare themselves victorious of... whatever it is we're doing.

Magic sets don't go out of print because that's part of the CCG model, they go out of print because it's impossible to sustain a game that big and that popular over a long period of time. FFG should be so lucky to find itself in that position some day. In the amount of time it takes them to put out 60 new cards, Wizards will have released 3-4 times that many. By my count Netrunner should have between 900-1000 since its release 5 years ago. In the same amount of time Magic has gone through roughly 3,300 new cards (I counted all the way back to RTR, and that's not even considering supplemental products like their summer releases). Can you tell me how you think any card game, whether collectible or living, can sustain itself over the course of 20+ years with that kind of output? If your opinion is that it can be done, then tell me how much you think a Tarmogoyf would currently be worth if Future Sight was still in print at retail value. And maybe consider starting up a card company of your own while you're at it, because you're clearly more business savvy than the best company in the market.

I'm burnt out. Totally burnt out on the use of 'product' as a mass noun like everyone who's playing this game is at some horror-show corporate strategy meeting, competing to impress their bosses with meaningless business jargon.

It helps me to imagine it as a euphemistic term for a taboo infection. "Have you got product? I hear everyone in Canada has product."

8 minutes ago, Srba said:

I'm burnt out. Totally burnt out on the use of 'product' as a mass noun like everyone who's playing this game is at some horror-show corporate strategy meeting, competing to impress their bosses with meaningless business jargon.

It helps me to imagine it as a euphemistic term for a taboo infection. "Have you got product? I hear everyone in Canada has product."

Welcome to card games.

8 minutes ago, Srba said:

I'm burnt out. Totally burnt out on the use of 'product' as a mass noun like everyone who's playing this game is at some horror-show corporate strategy meeting, competing to impress their bosses with meaningless business jargon.

It helps me to imagine it as a euphemistic term for a taboo infection. "Have you got product? I hear everyone in Canada has product."

Last good batch of singles I have bought were all Canadian, better prices than the US. Thanks northern brothers for not being as pety and greedy as Americans can be

CCG sets go out of print because that is the model, borrowed from the old sports cards. Always has been since day one. If you were around back then, you would understand that. Magic's card pool currently is very different than it was 23 years ago. Nevertheless, their business model hasn't changed one bit. Think real hard on the set name "Unlimited" and exactly why it was called that. Sadly it wasn't all that unlimited of a printing as they had to revise the core set to address certain over powered cards. LCGs are flat out cheaper and smaller games. It's a fact. No need to argue if the sky is blue or not.

You're not answering my questions, Mep . I find that very telling (to say nothing of your contradictory 'alternate facts'). Here's another one that you'll probably ignore: what does Wizards stand to gain by continuing to print sets outside of their most lucrative format, standard? Rotations and print runs coincide for a reason. And as if I needed any more evidence that print runs have nothing to do with the collectibility model, please do bear in mind that even their non-randomized products (yeah, they have those too) have a limited shelf life. Whatever you think you know about the goings-on of Magic 20+ years ago has damn little relevance to this conversation or the current state of gaming.

At the end of the day this is still a CCG, so you might as well get used to it and learn how to enjoy navigating the secondary market. I, personally, am very happy with my < $100 decks.

As to what is in my Destiny deck, well at the time, Leia and Ackbar were $5 a piece. Then there are the six different blasters, those ran nearly $70, a few other things like promotions and scout, a few uncommons. This was before the last shipment and people selling it off while they can, so yeah, things are a little cheaper now. That same deck may run about $90 now.

As to the rest, well there just isn't any point in arguing with you. Wizards prints commander, eternal masters, modern masters, conspiracy, plane chase, duel decks, god knows what else, all outside standard. Sorry, there just isn't any point to this. I doubt you ever once opened a booster and thought, "where the hell is the gum?". You are very focused on what you like and only know that and that is fine, but we are just talking past each other at this point.

If we're talking past each other it's only because I prefer to use facts. I mentioned the summer releases already, so thank you for reinforcing my point. There have been far more than 3,300 cards printed since late 2012. Here's a non-random deck I bought in 2011 at MSRP:

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?productids[]=267356

That was only the first wave of commander products, and then there's all of the intro and event decks that they've printed through the years. "Where's the gum?" indeed. Non-randomized products have a fixed shelf life, and even some randomized sets (like the original Conspiracy) can still be had at MSRP. I'd prefer it if you could draw a correlation between collectibility and set retirement based on that data rather than pulling facts out of your... ear, but I'll understand if you can't. Let me know when you have something more substantive than your own likes and dislikes; I've done my homework, time for you to do yours.

On 2/4/2017 at 8:36 AM, CBMarkham said:

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with Mep. The LCG model is obviously much more consumer friendly. Buying singles to make a single deck might be more economical after a game's been out for awhile, but that's working on the assumption that you're only trying to flesh out a single deck. Most players like to have all of the cards so they can make and play different decks, or change up their existing deck in a variety of ways to test out new things.

For everyone who wants to own all the cards, which I would guess is the majority of players, there's no contest between the LCG model and the CCG model. Netrunner, for example, would be expensive to buy into now, but .... hold on, now that I think about it, buying a play set of everything that's come out in that game to date is probably cheaper and also way easier than just getting a single playset of all of SWD Awakenings. Wait, yeah..I just checked it, owning a play set of every Netrunner card to have come out since the game's inception (2012) is cheaper than the market price for a play set of Awakenings. The average monthly cost of owning everything would have been about $11.40.

Let me break it down another way; you're glad you can buy the individual cards you want, like a Jetpack for about $12? That's the cost of a Netrunner expansion that'd include a play set (3) of 20 unique cards (60 cards in total), so even if you only wanted the one of those 20 play sets, at least you'd have 3 cards for your deck, and not just one, as in the instance of the Jetpack. Now consider Darth Vader. The cost of owning our darkly clad Sith Lord is roughly equivalent to 4 Netrunner expansions, or 240 individual cards, consisting of 80 different play sets . But lucky you, you're allowed to buy singles, right? How economical . Hope you didn't want a second Vader.

LCGs are so consumer friendly that a secondary market doesn't exist because it would be pointless. There'd be no profit margin for resellers because people would always rather buy directly from the source, because it's so cheap to get your hands on everything.

You're a fan of CCGs, and that's fine. I'm glad for you. Stop pretending like it's a model that's good for anyone but the publisher. That's either -

The ccg model has just as much going for it as against it, you fail to take in account that you can sell back the cards that you do obtain, each card has a value where in a lcg there completely worthless. In a LCG there no excitement of chasing that legendary or ultra rare opening packs and trading once you open the box the excitement is over and once you solved the meta theirs this long wait to the next expansion where in a ccg there still the excitement of winning that pack and pulling a 3rd vader which you can resale and make some extra cash

Which takes us back to the original point; collecting and trading is part of the hobby, so you might as well enjoy it. If you're bad at working the market then of course you'd prefer to just have everything handed to you.

On 2/3/2017 at 4:25 PM, Muffin Man said:

I am one of the few that was able to get multiple boxes upon release. And I had some very fortunate pulls with the loose boosters I bought. So I know this will not apply to everyone, but if you are able to play multiple decks whether it be the same colors but different characters or something completely new. Try something new out, it helps increase your knowledge of the game so much and is way fun if you're getting burnt out on a certain deck.

I went from vader/raider, to Vader/jabba, to dooku/jabba, changing out cards as I go. So much fun, falling in love with this game more and more every day.

In Western Australia our game stores were on it so they got massive deliveries. My wife and I play and we have managed collect 4 of every thing for a set each minus a couple of the legendaries.

We are constantly switching it up, but its pretty clear that alot of decks/characters are being held back by the card pool. SOR should shake it up something crazy