I started a thread on reddit to ask this question earlier ... but perhaps this forum is the better one to ask it of right now.

The Regenerate ability gives the ability to replace figures in trays are missing some figures each round if you have Red runes in play, as seen on the Reanimates card. Card References thanks KrisSherriff . I'm thinking a core of most Waiqar (at least in the first few waves) will be a big unit of Reanimates that slams into enemy formations to lock their facings and prevents them from moving, and uses Regenerate to stay in the fight. In looking at the Reanimates, we see that they have two red dice, which means lots of damage but no accuracy. Based on how we eliminate figures from back to front, tray by tray, this means that most officer figures will be in the first tray of every formation, and it will be hard for Reanimates to dig them out. This means we need one or two smaller squads with accuracy to act as the 'hammer' to the Reanimates 'anvil' to hit the sides or back and knock out officers and demoralize the enemy. The size of a formation determines which officers it can upgrade, which means that in order to add a lot of officers or champions to a unit, it will need to be too large to use in this way. Obviously Ardus Ix'Erebus (WW die) and the Carrion Lancers (RBB die) will fill this role a lot of the time but Heroes are limited and who knows how long until Carrion Lancers Expansion will come out. They have mentioned you can't use ranged on engaged units (I think I remember this from one of the Gencon demo videos), so Reanimate Archers (RB) are not an option for this.

I'm left wondering if we have seen/heard any rumors about options to upgrade smaller formations of Reanimates (and other units) with officers? I'm thinking FFG might do this through upgrades like the Front Line Rune Golem, that would modify a smaller formation to act as a flanking/assassin squad or perhaps some kind of title to make it a named squad with officers.

If not, I worry about there being an effect on how much it will cost to field an effective Waiqar army. Let me follow that up by saying this is not a rant about the cost of expansions, just the possible effect the meta might have on the cost difference of having an effective force for both factions. I'm already feeling better about the cost of the command expansion because I've noticed from looking through all the cards that the Reanimate Archers and Reanimates both allow different officer upgrades at their base points, and add the upgrades in different orders, which should mean that one command expansion should be able to upgrade most of the units for a faction from the core set without buying any infantry expansion packs. My thinking on the cost shift is thus: Two core sets and an command expansion would allow you to field a formation of 9 trays of Reanimates with all four officer upgrades (2x4 trays + 1 officer tray), and cost around $225 MSRP ($125 by expacs if FFG keeps the current pricing of around $12.50 per tray of infantry and $25 per tray of officers). The reverse is true for the Daqan Spearmen as well. Assuming ~4 pts per officer (a wild guess on my part from the cards they've let us see) we can guestimate that 9 trays of Reanimates would run 64 points, which means in a 200 pt army you could afford to run 2-3 formations. However, I wonder how much Regeneration will have a favor towards larger units (9-12 trays) vs smaller (4-6 trays), increasing the cost of Waiqar armies (like buying more Ties increased the cost of Empire when XWing started.) What do you all think of my logic?

Not sure how i missed this post. But to answer the question, I don't think regen will be as big a deal as it seems right now. And as for archers you can shoot into your an engagment but there will be a penalty.(team covenant demo). Then we have the meat of the question, the monetary difference. The price will be similar because in order to make the same style army in daqan you will need the same units, 2 cores worth of infantry and the command box.

Yeah I started this a month ago. I feel I understand more about the tray mechanics and the rune mechanics (another thread I had with the runemath on how it will affect core cards) now that I feel regenerate will be a great ability, but it should not change cost of investment or greatly skew army build. That may change when I see the necromancer upgrade...

Since you can only place figures into existing trays, there isn't a big issue. Now if we get a wizard or hero that adds trays, it could be an issue. An easy fix is simply not allowing a unit to go above the number of trays it initially purchased.

I own thousands of figures, from many game systems, and I will buy the figures here. That having been said, I'm also planning on 3d printing my own trays to use models from my collection that I like better. I won't bring those to tournaments, but I can enjoy them with my gaming group.

47 minutes ago, Taki said:

I own thousands of figures, from many game systems, and I will buy the figures here. That having been said, I'm also planning on 3d printing my own trays to use models from my collection that I like better. I won't bring those to tournaments, but I can enjoy them with my gaming group.

Will FFG have the same policy about alternative miniatures as GW had with their games? I mean not at all is possible to use other brand miniatures?

If the trays and unit cards are legit, seems like it wouldn't matter what models you use

12 minutes ago, Disgruntled said:

If the trays and unit cards are legit, seems like it wouldn't matter what models you use

¿Where did you get this information?

It's an assumption. I don't think ffg would actually allow it. And thinking about it further I was mistaken in my reasoning. My thought was if the cards and trays were legit you'd have all the models anyway. Then I realized that one card could represent a unit with multiple expansions worth of models and trays could be from other unit types.

It is very sad to pay 2 times and expansion box just to add a champion to a unit when you could have a better model to represent it.

As an example, on Waiqar side the champion is represented by an skeleton with a hand weapon, maybe we have a better model to fit on an archer unit, any miniature with a bow could fit better in the role. But if we have to pay 2 times 25$ to have a second champion on a second unit... this hurt me.

I'm hoping we see an 'extra trays' or even better a 'colored trays' option the way XWing did for their bases. If not, I'm sure there will be 3D printer files up soon like @Taki said, and I'm sure people will be making them and selling third party trays on Amazon. The issue will be how well 3rd party trays work with original trays, and how all the trays fit together and separate to begin with.

Also, remember that the Command upgrades come with their own tray, which you could use to fill out the last tray with other minis from Descent or D&D or WHF to represent figures, and just kill the extra models off first.

I doubt we would ever see something that lets you -add- trays that have been removed. As I showed in my other section on the math of the runes, at most Waiqar Regenerate can create 3 more models. So even if you -could- add a new tray, you couldn't generate enough models to fill it unless you had something that increased the effect of Regenerate. I would bet a more probable effect would be to delay the tray removal that normally occurs immediately after removing models, and let this occur at the end of the round, so that it is possible if you just barely go into a tray to pop back to the tray before, then remove empty trays.

A staple of all of the tournament regulations for all of the Miniature games for FFG is "Must use original FFG Components."

You can modify components - including models - but they must still consist of original components.

From the Armada Tournament Regulations (as an Example)

Component Modifications

During tournament play, each player is required to use the components included in official Star Wars: Armada products (see “Legal Products” on page 9). Questions about a component’s eligibility should be directed to a marshal. If a necessary component is ruled ineligible and the player cannot locate a replacement for it, that player is dropped from the tournament. Players must identify copies of the same ship in his or her fleet—and its corresponding ship card —with a token, a sticker, or any other form of marking. Players are welcome and encouraged to personalize their fleet according to the following rules:

• Players may paint their ship models. They cannot modify a ship model in any way that would create confusion about which ship the model represents.

• Players cannot modify ship or squadron bases to alter their size or shape. Weight may be added to a ship or squadron base if it does not alter the shape of the base. Ship fins or pegs (including the connecting pegs affixed to ship models) may be modified or replaced with a different connecting method.

• Cards must remain unaltered, though they may be sleeved for protection. Sleeves for damage cards must be identical and unaltered.

• Players may mark their tokens, maneuver dials, and command dials to indicate ownership as long as the function of the component is not compromised. Players may mark obstacles to indicate ownership, but cannot otherwise alter them in any way.

and:

Legal Products

Players may use only official Star Wars: Armada components in tournament play, with the following exceptions for third-party replacements:

• Non-essential tokens (see “Tokens” on page 9)

• Range rulers that match the dimensions of an official range ruler or a particular section of an official range ruler .



and, for additional Clarification: Imperial Assault


Component Modifications

During tournament play, each player is required to use the components included in official Star Wars: Imperial Assault products (see “Legal Products” on page 8). Questions about a component’s eligibility should be directed to a marshal. If a necessary component is ruled ineligible and the player cannot locate a replacement for it, that player is dropped from the tournament. Players must identify copies of the same unit in his or her group—and its corresponding deployment card—with a token, sticker, or any other form of marking. Players are welcome and encouraged to personalize their models according to the following rules:

• Players may paint their models. They cannot modify a model in any way that would create confusion about which unit the model represents.

• Players cannot modify model bases to alter their size or shape.

• Cards must remain unaltered, though they may be sleeved for protection. Sleeves for Command cards must be identical and unaltered.

• Players may mark their tokens and map tiles to indicate ownership, but cannot otherwise alter them in any way.

• Players may mark dice with a permanent or indelible marker to indicate ownership in an unobtrusive manner, but cannot otherwise alter them in any way.

And considering the Armada Rules were Originally a Copy-Paste of the X-Wing Rules (seriously), I expect the Runewars rules to be considered much the same direction as well... That you must use all original components from the Box, no matter how poorly painted, and using 3rd party replacements (model or otherwise) is verboten until explicitly allowed for such things as maneuver tools and tokens.

Sio maybe you'll get away with using Descent Figures in there, since they're FFG Components... But I wouldn't expect anything else. The Enforcement is to encourage you to purchase from FFG . Not from 3rd Parties.

Yeah, but in casual games, which is what a lot of us will be playing for the next several months, they will have no worries about using custom or proxy models.

Of course, but that also beggars the question - Why is it even a question if all you are considering is Casual games where Rules are inherently questionable anyway ?

The only difference is that one is the first real army miniature game.

Just now, Hijodecain said:

The only difference is that one is the first real army miniature game.

With Custom made bases, dials, trays and measuring components. The fact that the models come unpainted isn't, basically, any different from IA after all. The fact you need the custom trays and measuring components isn't any different from X-Wing/Armada... Truly, its a Blend of those, rather than a revolutionary evolution of those.

I will bet real money on them not considering it any differently, when it comes to Tournaments and Organised Play. I don't see them putting a mandate on painting the models for OP, but there has to be some allocation as for marking ownership on the battlefield - as long as you do that, then that will be enough for the Tournament Regulations.

And of course, the caveat being, in casual play, they don't care. Play with cardboard cutout trays and such, as long as your opponent is cool with it.

But I guarantee their Tournament Regulations will be just as strict as what I copy-pasted above, if not bloody well verbatim .

I know I've seen somewhere in an interview that they weren't planning to make people paint their miniatures for a tournament. But look at how many custom paint jobs come to XWing tournaments! I'm sure everyone will deck out their armies. I just bought everything I need to add swamp water effects to my Waiqar and terrain pieces.

If you want to have a look at a " real army miniature game" that FFG produced (unpainted and everything) it's been a few years, but the Dust Tactics tournament regulations are still up: https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/1c/27/1c2760ec-5e58-433b-9e59-c911319a91bc/dust-tactics-tournament-rules_v20_lowres.pdf

Quote

Proxies (substitute miniatures) are not allowed under any circumstances. All miniatures must be Dust Tactics miniatures. Conversions (modifications to Dust Tactics miniatures) are acceptable as long as the converted unit can still be recognized for what it is; conversions must represent the miniature from which they are most obviously drawn. For example, a heavily converted Hot Dog miniature is not a substitute for a Luther miniature.

Proxy or homemade unit cards are not acceptable under any circumstances. Regardless of any and all modifications made to a unit, the official unit card—which must coincide with a unit listed on the Army Point Cost chart—will always represent the unit’s weapons, ammunition, armor, and health points.

A TO may make exceptions and approve any reasonable conversions. The TO will make the final call on whether or not any particular miniature or modification may be used. Units that are scaled differently, do not include a unit card with the miniature, or were not published by Fantasy Flight Games are not permitted under any circumstances.

Further evidence that non-Runewars miniatures will not be allowed at tournaments.

Looking at the new necromancer hero (his name escapes me at the moment), you will have someone that can add new trays to a unit. I can't really read all of the text since it's a bit blurry zoomed in. Having more trays would increase the amount of money needed but that's largely on how far a player wants to focus on 'reanimating' new trays.

15 hours ago, Kubernes said:

Looking at the new necromancer hero (his name escapes me at the moment), you will have someone that can add new trays to a unit. I can't really read all of the text since it's a bit blurry zoomed in. Having more trays would increase the amount of money needed but that's largely on how far a player wants to focus on 'reanimating' new trays.

this looks really cool but it is based on runes (I think stable ones?) so one or two trays per turn, and you have to take a damage for each tray so at most you could have 5 extra trays (over 3 rounds) keep in mind this would kill the hero and lose you points. if you used this in a large unit of reanimates, you could easily wait to take some trays of damage before you used it, thus not needing any extra components.

@Klaxas the regen is based on green runes. Also it looks like his ranged surge ability heals him. And we haven't seen his special upgrades yet they might help mitigate that as well.

Make a new tray on an unit and get a reroll because winning a line of troops could be very tactical at some specific moments. Or a column and get a multiplier.

6 hours ago, Orcdruid said:

. Also it looks like his ranged surge ability heals him. And we haven't seen his special upgrades yet they might help mitigate that as well.

wow you have better eyes than i do. but you are correct it does look like 2 surges heal him. i wonder if he can get a surge from a dial to make that trigger a bit more. it may be a choice between healing and reanimating. its a shame you cant roll your attack with no targets just to get a chance to surge.

Pair this with the upgrade for Reanimates that allows them to exhaust it when they use a Special to give an ally a free ranged attack... Necromancer hero goes, adds trays, Reanimates charge, deal mega damage, trigger special with Lance corporal, Necromancer blasts their enemy, he regains health back. Rinse and repeat.

7 minutes ago, drkpnthr said:

Pair this with the upgrade for Reanimates that allows them to exhaust it when they use a Special to give an ally a free ranged attack... Necromancer hero goes, adds trays, Reanimates charge, deal mega damage, trigger special with Lance corporal, Necromancer blasts their enemy, he regains health back. Rinse and repeat.

1 problem, Lance Corporal and Dispatch Runner both take up the command upgrade slot.