4 minutes ago, Keffisch said:How is that different from Triple Defenders/Palpfenders, Dengaroo, Rebel regen lists of the past, Fat Han, up until the MoV nerf, etc. ?
Remember, HeyChadwick doesnt care about anything competitive, he just wants his 4 rookies to be at the top of the casual meta, dangit!!
2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:Assaj isn't canon, nor's Latts, nor's IG88, so... you know, Wave 9. About 6 months ago.
Not to mention the as-yet unreleased C-ROC with Scyk enclosed. Which was noted in the post you quoted...
Assajj is in Clone Wars. Canon. The Shadow Caster is in Rebels. Canon. Latts and the Hounds Tooth are also in Clone Wars. Canon. IG88 is canon, but the A-D variants are not. But it appears in a largely canon expansion. The C-ROC is canon. And I said that each expansion will include canon content, not that the whole thing will be canon. The Scyk update comes with a canon ship.
Everything I said was sound and grounded in content from recent releases. New Canon ships are on the rise, here to stay, and are likely a higher priority than non canon ships we haven't yet.
I'm not trying to start anything, just pointing out that every release since Wave 8 has included canon ships and/or characters and that trend doesn't seem likely to change. That said, there is still some hope for old favorites, as Rebels (and Clone Wars) liked to canonize old favorites. But the new movies don't seem keen to do so, and Rebels and the comics will also continue to create new ships.
Edited by Engine2541 minutes ago, Keffisch said:How is that different from Triple Defenders/Palpfenders, Dengaroo, Rebel regen lists of the past, Fat Han, up until the MoV nerf, etc. ?
You can only beat those lists if you have a pilot skill 10? If so, no different.
14 minutes ago, Engine25 said:Assajj is in Clone Wars. Canon. The Shadow Caster is in Rebels. Canon. Latts and the Hounds Tooth are also in Clone Wars. Canon. IG88 is canon, but the A-D variants are not. But it appears in a largely canon expansion. The C-ROC is canon. And I said that each expansion will include canon content, not that the whole thing will be canon. The Scyk update comes with a canon ship.
Everything I said was sound and grounded in content from recent releases. New Canon ships are on the rise, here to stay, and are likely a higher priority than non canon ships we haven't yet.
I'm not trying to start anything, just pointing out that every release since Wave 8 has included canon ships and/or characters and that trend doesn't seem likely to change. That said, there is still some hope for old favorites, as Rebels (and Clone Wars) liked to canonize old favorites. But the new movies don't seem keen to do so, and Rebels and the comics will also continue to create new ships.
I didn;t think Disney counted Clone Wars as canon. My mistake I guess.
Is Citrako Vizago from a canon source? The various C-ROC titles?
4 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:I didn;t think Disney counted Clone Wars as canon. My mistake I guess.
Is Citrako Vizago from a canon source? The various C-ROC titles?
Cikatro and Azmorigan are both in Rebels, as is the C-ROC and at least the Merchant One. We don't know the other titles but I don't recall another one being mentioned on the show (could be wrong). But yes, it really appears that for better or worse, every release will be founded in canon or contain canon content. This has been the case as far back as the Gozanti, which appears in Episode One but the version in the game is straight out of Rebels, including Agent Kallus.
57 minutes ago, channellockjon said:You can only beat those lists if you have a pilot skill 10? If so, no different.
Speaking as one who consistently beat Whisper with a stress bot I'd say that PS 10 wasn't necessary, but a counter built into your list and a sound game plan (i.e. good flying) was.
10 hours ago, Joe Boss Red Seven said:YOUR FALLING JIMBO... WAKE UP... WAKE UP!!!
I'm tired from playing X-wing. Leave me alone!
2 hours ago, Luke C said:Remember, HeyChadwick doesnt care about anything competitive, he just wants his 4 rookies to be at the top of the casual meta, dangit!!
Oh, ho! So NOW you want to comment!
I never said that 4 Rookies need to be at the top of the meta. I said 4 Rookies need to have a chance of winning! Large difference there.
17 minutes ago, heychadwick said:Oh, ho! So NOW you want to comment!
I never said that 4 Rookies need to be at the top of the meta. I said 4 Rookies need to have a chance of winning! Large difference there.
fair enough, but if its casual, why care about winning and losing? Wouldn't narrative immersion be better?
3 minutes ago, Luke C said:fair enough, but if its casual, why care about winning and losing? Wouldn't narrative immersion be better?
Once you depart high tournament meta, there is a huge world out there. It's not all fluff bunnies singing kumbaya. I just get bored with tournament meta, but I'm still a competitive player. I like tough missions/games that push me to the limits. I just like using other lists than what the top tables use. I find it fun to limit my list choices to still build a good list, like only flying generics or something like that. Casual doesn't mean boring or you don't care about winning.
The core concept of X-wing and points is that you should be able to pick a decent list of 100 pts and have a chance against any other list. I understand that you can always pick something stupid, like as many HWKs without upgrades to shoot that full of holes, but that's the whole concept of the game. Tournament meta at this point is just finding the most broken stuff to fly against each other. 80% of the game isn't used at this level. That doesn't mean that the whole game needs to be at that level. Once you avoid the power combos, most ships are pretty viable. I think the 100 pts of any list stands up outside of high tournament meta. The one exception is against Tie Phantoms. They break that rule and require you to have certain things or you lose. That's bad game design.
7 minutes ago, heychadwick said:Once you depart high tournament meta, there is a huge world out there. It's not all fluff bunnies singing kumbaya. I just get bored with tournament meta, but I'm still a competitive player. I like tough missions/games that push me to the limits. I just like using other lists than what the top tables use. I find it fun to limit my list choices to still build a good list, like only flying generics or something like that. Casual doesn't mean boring or you don't care about winning.
The core concept of X-wing and points is that you should be able to pick a decent list of 100 pts and have a chance against any other list. I understand that you can always pick something stupid, like as many HWKs without upgrades to shoot that full of holes, but that's the whole concept of the game. Tournament meta at this point is just finding the most broken stuff to fly against each other. 80% of the game isn't used at this level. That doesn't mean that the whole game needs to be at that level. Once you avoid the power combos, most ships are pretty viable. I think the 100 pts of any list stands up outside of high tournament meta. The one exception is against Tie Phantoms. They break that rule and require you to have certain things or you lose. That's bad game design.
ok great, now we are getting somewhere. Could it be that phantoms are just good against xwings, and they get better as the ps difference increases? generic ywings with turrets wouldnt have this problem.
Have you tried munitions on your xwings? three proton torpedoes would probably down a fully cloaked phantom.
have you tried a blocking strategy? leaving the phantom blocked without a shot (so they cant cloak?)
I know its an uphill battle but most (if not all) lists can be beaten with a strong strategy and solid flying. You said you liked a challenge. What I am hearing from you is that you cant beat a phantom the way you think you should be able to beat a phantom. maybe change up your technique.
21 minutes ago, Luke C said:fair enough, but if its casual, why care about winning and losing? Wouldn't narrative immersion be better?
Not really, no. There are a lot of competitive games out there that are not all tournament. You can find them if you look. Even very competitive games that still immerse you in theme. I realize that many do not understand this concept. Not too long ago someone told me that if I wanted theme I should even be playing Star War: X-Wing but rather an RPG? Perhaps he just didn't understand the draw to this very game was the Star War's theme. There are actually a lot of non Star Wars space games out there if you do not like immersion but want space combat.
I hope this helped clear it up.
I know
11 minutes ago, heychadwick said:The one exception is against Tie Phantoms. They break that rule and require you to have certain things or you lose. That's bad game design.
I know what you need to do to feel waaaaaay better: I'll come to your LGS (it's a great store btw) and play you with my Phantom squad and I'm quite certain you'll 'kick me to the curb' and you'll see not every Phantom is a bad Phantom.
7 minutes ago, Luke C said:ok great, now we are getting somewhere. Could it be that phantoms are just good against xwings, and they get better as the ps difference increases? generic ywings with turrets wouldnt have this problem.
Have you tried munitions on your xwings? three proton torpedoes would probably down a fully cloaked phantom.
have you tried a blocking strategy? leaving the phantom blocked without a shot (so they cant cloak?)
I know its an uphill battle but most (if not all) lists can be beaten with a strong strategy and solid flying. You said you liked a challenge. What I am hearing from you is that you cant beat a phantom the way you think you should be able to beat a phantom. maybe change up your technique.
Hey, you were the one that didn't want to talk yesterday.
I consider myself reasonable.
Yes, if you practice the hell out of your list vs. Tie Phantoms and become a really good player, you have a chance to beat a mediocre to bad Tie Phantom player. What if the Tie Phantom player is really good and both players are excellent at playing their lists. The chances of the X-wings winning is pretty low. Possible, but still low. That's bad game design.
Can 3 Torps destroy a Tie Phantom? Well, first the Phantom needs to be firing arc with TL's from 3 of them. If that happens, it's still....dicey...what the results are. Possible to destroy one, but also possible to utterly brick. Next bit is then what do you do for the last Tie Phantom?
As for type of ship, it is primarily low PS jousters that have the issue. Low PS turrets can have issues, but depends. Tie Phantoms are there along with Fat Turrets and high PS PTL Arc Dodgers that help kill Jousters. Personally, I think Tie Phantoms are just even further to a degree than the others. I feel as if they were just poorly designed to be balanced against lists not designed to take them down.
I have beaten Tie Phantoms and killed them before, but I still think they turn the game too much into rock/paper/scissors type of matches. I've seen it in other game systems and it's bad game design. It shouldn't be as harsh an uphill battle as it is. My opinion of course.
2 minutes ago, heychadwick said:Hey, you were the one that didn't want to talk yesterday.
Yes, if you practice the hell out of your list vs. Tie Phantoms and become a really good player, you have a chance to beat a mediocre to bad Tie Phantom player. What if the Tie Phantom player is really good and both players are excellent at playing their lists. The chances of the X-wings winning is pretty low. Possible, but still low. That's bad game design.
Can 3 Torps destroy a Tie Phantom? Well, first the Phantom needs to be firing arc with TL's from 3 of them. If that happens, it's still....dicey...what the results are. Possible to destroy one, but also possible to utterly brick. Next bit is then what do you do for the last Tie Phantom?
As for type of ship, it is primarily low PS jousters that have the issue. Low PS turrets can have issues, but depends. Tie Phantoms are there along with Fat Turrets and high PS PTL Arc Dodgers that help kill Jousters. Personally, I think Tie Phantoms are just even further to a degree than the others. I feel as if they were just poorly designed to be balanced against lists not designed to take them down.
I have beaten Tie Phantoms and killed them before, but I still think they turn the game too much into rock/paper/scissors type of matches. I've seen it in other game systems and it's bad game design. It shouldn't be as harsh an uphill battle as it is. My opinion of course.
Spamming a single ship usually leads to rock paper scissors. It doesn't seem like you like arc dodgers, and with the phantom being one of the most arc dodgy, i can see where you get that.
Eh, I'll just leave my 2 pennies as:
FFG knows the TIE Phantom is so broken it is nearly unfixable. Hence the TIE Striker, which is essentially a revamped version of the repositioning mechanic sans cloaking.
QuoteYes, if you practice the hell out of your list vs. Tie Phantoms and become a really good player, you have a chance to beat a mediocre to bad Tie Phantom player. What if the Tie Phantom player is really good and both players are excellent at playing their lists. The chances of the X-wings winning is pretty low. Possible, but still low. That's bad game design.
Anything versus four X-wings is going to be at best a coinflip for the X-wings because X-wings aren't in a great place. That's the problem of the X-wing, not the TIE phantom. The old Phantom was a hard counter to low mobility lower PS but the new one can be outmaneuvered.
3 hours ago, Luke C said:Remember, HeyChadwick doesnt care about anything competitive, he just wants his 4 rookies to be at the top of the casual meta, dangit!!
Yeah! You keep hitting that straw man! Get 'im!
8 minutes ago, Blue Five said:Anything versus four X-wings is going to be at best a coinflip for the X-wings because X-wings aren't in a great place. That's the problem of the X-wing, not the TIE phantom. The old Phantom was a hard counter to low mobility lower PS but the new one can be outmaneuvered.
OK....before I get to responding decently to Luke C, I'll do a quick one on this. I disagree.
If you move beyond tournament top tables and don't have as many arc dodgers and the X-wing is a fantastic ship. With Integrated Astromech it is just about the same efficiency as the B-wing. Even with other Arc Dodgers, if you mix X-wings with other ships, it's not a done deal. I don't think T-65's stand up to the current top table stuff, but once you move beyond tournament lists, it's very viable.
There really aren't that many arc dodgers in the high level tournament meta at the moment though?
QuoteIf you move beyond tournament top tables and don't have as many arc dodgers and the X-wing is a fantastic ship. With Integrated Astromech it is just about the same efficiency as the B-wing. Even with other Arc Dodgers, if you mix X-wings with other ships, it's not a done deal. I don't think T-65's stand up to the current top table stuff, but once you move beyond tournament lists, it's very viable.
Quoteif you mix X-wings with other ships
...then unless it's XXXXZ it's not a four X-wing list, is it?
I maintain the X-wing's main problem is how little there is to it: strip away its ship model and it's one of the blandest ships in the game. No ship has a smaller action bar and its dial is nothing to write home about. Thanks to Integrated Astromech's slot choice its torpedo slot is still of very limited use. Its biggest draw is its astromech slot but pretty much all of them find better synergies with other ships.
The X-wing is a more expensive Kihraxz with a less interesting dial. Were its mechanics not coupled to the image of an icon it'd have been forgotten and discarded long ago.
58 minutes ago, Luke C said:Spamming a single ship usually leads to rock paper scissors. It doesn't seem like you like arc dodgers, and with the phantom being one of the most arc dodgy, i can see where you get that.
Yes, spamming multiples of many ship types can lead to R/P/S, but not always and also not to as much of an extreme as it does with Tie Phantoms. If you are unable to get them into your firing arc, then the Tie Phantoms are usually firing at R1 with 5 dice. FCS gives them the TL and often has a Focus token for that turn. That’s even worse than HLC Dash, Fat Han, and Soontir Fel. Yes, some of the newer ships are as bad, but they usually required to be in your arc, so it has some balance. It’s the super Arc Dodgy-ness combined with the brutal firepower that really makes Tie Phantoms go that extra edge of R/P/S syndrome. You either 1) have the specific tools to beat it, 2) get lucky (they make a mistake) , or 3) lose.
Do I dislike Arc Dodgers? I’ll say no, but I do dislike some extremes in the game that can generally make the game not as much fun. OK…what do I mean by that. Well, first, let me tackle the extreme part. Fat Turrets were something that pissed a lot of people off. That’s well known. 2 Hard turn and Boost and you were able to fire with impunity for most of the rest of the game. That was a bit extreme. Was it beatable without really changing your whole list around? I think so. I think the primary trick was to catch it on that bait turn and block it. If you could do that, you can catch the Falcon at R1 with no actions. 3 X-wings can rip that up. Soontir Fel isn’t so bad. He’s a tough nut to crack, but he’s not unbeatable. Soontir Fel w/ Royal Guard, Auto Thrusters, and Stealth Device is pretty dang obnoxious. Throw in Palpatine and I say that’s too far. Beatable without changing your whole list? Getting close, but I’ll still say yes. In my opinion, Tie Phantoms really go beyond the other worst cases of Arc Dodgers that you just have to change up your list to have much of any chance against them.
Next, let me talk about “not much fun”. My local scene started with just me and another guy. I worked hard to build the scene and we have over 250 players now and X-wing nights every night of the week at a different store in our greater metro area. The game has done well. I’ve personally gotten many people into the game. I’d say that about half the people who get into X-wing end up quitting in a few months. Why is that? There are a number of factors, but the majority of the reason is that these guys don’t want to put the time and effort into X-wing to become tournament level at the game. They play other games. They don’t want to have to study the latest and greatest to know what is out there and how to beat it. They just want to pick up some X-wings and fly them on the table. When they go against the tournament level lists that some people always play they have negative play experiences. Tournaments are popular and people like playing highly competitive games. They want to practice for tournaments. They want to play cutting edge X-wing. I get that. Not everyone does, though. I’ve seen people say that you either need to “git gud” or “maybe this game isn’t for you”. Personally, I think this can be a really fun game for the causal gamer who doesn’t want to have to put up with all the “meta” and just wants to roll dice and go pew pew. I don’t think every tournament player should be forced to play with guys who don’t want to play at that level. I think communication and understanding on both sides of this can make this a not bad situation. As it is, I’ve seen about half of everyone who gets into X-wing quit because they just don’t want to have to work at something they see as a fun hobby as much as the other half. When they play, it’s just not fun for them. What I have seen is that a half-decent Tie Phantom player can utterly maul someone who takes 4 X-wings that hasn’t spent many many matches practicing against them. Yes, Soontir and Fat Han also make for a bad game for them, but with a few pointers and a couple of games, they can actually do a lot better against those guys. Tie Phantoms, though, are another story. You really have to work at the game to get a victory with 4 X-wings against the 2 named Tie Phantoms. To me, that’s just bad game design.
To sum up, I think it’s the amount of effort that is required for someone with 4 X-wings to defeat a decent Tie Phantom player shows that it’s a badly designed ship.
3 hours ago, channellockjon said:You can only beat those lists if you have a pilot skill 10? If so, no different.
Maybe back in wave 5. Now though there are numerous ways to deal with a Phantom besides high PS. Stress, whether from something like a stress bot or Asajj, pretty well wrecks them as it prevents the recloak. Zuckuss is murder, large base auto blasters, bumpmasters, TLTs, HotCoP/Gunner PWTs, there's a long list of stuff that chews through Phantoms pretty effectively these days and most all of it is pretty good in a variety of situations and so is prevalent in the meta
26 minutes ago, Blue Five said:...then unless it's XXXXZ it's not a four X-wing list, is it?
I maintain the X-wing's main problem is how little there is to it: strip away its ship model and it's one of the blandest ships in the game. No ship has a smaller action bar and its dial is nothing to write home about. Thanks to Integrated Astromech's slot choice its torpedo slot is still of very limited use. Its biggest draw is its astromech slot but pretty much all of them find better synergies with other ships.
The X-wing is a more expensive Kihraxz with a less interesting dial. Were its mechanics not coupled to the image of an icon it'd have been forgotten and discarded long ago.
OK...you got me on the 4 X-wings. I was in a hurry when I posted. Forget the part about mixing it.
I agree that the Kihraxz gets better mostly because you can take 5 of them. You start entering into where you can really put some firepower into someone with 5 of the ships. It also has the 1 hard turn, which is pretty good. It is easier to kill w/out Integrated Astromech and doesn't have the same amount of shields, but I do think being able to add in that 1 extra ship makes a big difference.
If you don't think about the power level of tournament games, then I think X-wings aren't so bad. They take some concentrated fire to kill them and if you aren't playing at the latest power creep on red dice level, that's something that takes effort. There are 4 of them, so you can't just delete them one after another. While you are destroying one, the other three should usually put the hurt on something. Once again....not talking Palp and /x7 or Dengaroo level of game play. I totally agree that in today's tournament meta, there are way too many things that up the red dice total (with modifications) to make them viable.
The SPA sigma saw some play and for a very brief window ADV + Stigian (before a rules clarification and nerf) double decloak was nice as either you were cloaked with focus or decloaked with double evade tokens.
ACD is the real problem. A real auto-include in the mod slot. Like others have noted, it's not as dangerous as it used to be, it has lots of slots to help it out, and doesn't have a title yet. I'd love to see some help to make it more interesting again.