2 hours ago, heychadwick said:

More than just one bad experience. It's also horrible from a design perspective. If you look at the high PS pilots with ACD then your list either has the tools to beat it or it doesn't have the tools to beat it and it curb stomps you. Having an effective Tie Phantom at high PS with ACD pretty much requires your opponent to have a high PS ship that can fire before it and most likely have a turret. The tools to beat the Tie Phantom are utterly "meta warping" to use FFG's own terminology. It's bad game design and it's a bad ship to have in the game.

It's also horrible in Epic and in so many missions, too.

I personally hope they do not nerf the Phantom. Though I can agree with most if not all of your points. I have been the one hoping for more situational ships for missions. Bombers that act like bombers and not fighters, freighters that are not as maneuverable as top tier fighters, and the Phantom fits this nicely. Yes it may ruin your game or raise RPSLS to ever more noticeable levels. But it is still a cool ship and buried in a squad, blinking in and out with a clocking device to deliver a package, agent, spy, recon can be the perfect place for this little gem.

I'd rather set it band from tournament play that nerfed. The we may have a real precedence for more situational craft and FFG focusing on more than the 100/6 game with the occasional Epic ship.

To fix the phantom: Stygnium Particle device should be 0 points; Advanced cloak should be 2 points.

I fly ACD Echo with decent success. Your success depends a lot on matchup, and how you fly your Phantom. The key is to be unpredictable. If you fly in a way that your opponent can track you, you will get shot at. One of my favourite maneuvers with Echo is a 3 bank. You can cover an insane amount of distance. If you decloak foward, you get a maneuver that equals about a 7 straight. Or what would be like a 5 bank. Or you can decloak to the side, and then sweep around.

Phantoms just need to be a few points cheaper. I would say a fully decked out Whisperer should be in the high twenty's/low thirties instead on the high thirties/low forties. They were point priced based on the old(admittedly semi-broken) cloak/decloak rules and are now, post nerf, over-costed. They rarely make up their points and usually die to one bad decloak guess and/or one bad dice roll. They went from over powered (although, I never really felt that way because they never one a major National tournament - to my knowledge) to not worth taking (again, not really totally a waste of points, but a super risky option, and therefore not widely used, unless you are an Xwing god) The Phantom does need something, but even really knowing what it needs is the real challenge.

6 minutes ago, JJFDVORAK said:

Phantoms just need to be a few points cheaper. I would say a fully decked out Whisperer should be in the high twenty's/low thirties instead on the high thirties/low forties. They were point priced based on the old(admittedly semi-broken) cloak/decloak rules and are now, post nerf, over-costed. They rarely make up their points and usually die to one bad decloak guess and/or one bad dice roll. They went from over powered (although, I never really felt that way because they never one a major National tournament - to my knowledge) to not worth taking (again, not really totally a waste of points, but a super risky option, and therefore not widely used, unless you are an Xwing god) The Phantom does need something, but even really knowing what it needs is the real challenge.

This.

Better stated than I could by far; nicely done.

Sorry heychadwick for your traumatic experience. I think this is the only time I have had the fun of reading a kind but emotional visceral retort with such conviction.

I continue to learn this awesome game, and understand how much I simply do not know. I have been flying it best I can, and it isn't fairing as well as many other ships I fly. It might be middle of the road at best, but yet costs as much as much more tank-ier ships that hit just as hard. I'm thinking of flying under it's original design parameters as stated on the ship's cards and see how they fair, open knowledge beer games with friends of course. Maybe I'll see -or my opponent- what all the fuss is about. Although my friends that like to mix things up off book, play some tough Scummy birds most of the time....that fits, I know, haha.

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I personally hope they do not nerf the Phantom. Though I can agree with most if not all of your points. I have been the one hoping for more situational ships for missions. Bombers that act like bombers and not fighters, freighters that are not as maneuverable as top tier fighters, and the Phantom fits this nicely. Yes it may ruin your game or raise RPSLS to ever more noticeable levels. But it is still a cool ship and buried in a squad, blinking in and out with a clocking device to deliver a package, agent, spy, recon can be the perfect place for this little gem.

They weren't talking about nerfing it, this thread's about reverting the Decloak errata. Personally I think that change was the single best errata the game's ever had. It simultaneously treated a metagame distortion and improved the gameplay and tactical depth of the ship affected.

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Phantoms just need to be a few points cheaper.

It has a four die attack and spends most of the time at four agility. When compared to the majority of the game it's still a very strong ship. I stand by what I said in the TIE fighter thread: the TIE fighter's the benchmark and most of the game is clustered around that. The small set of combos above the TIE need dragging down as the alternative is trying to pull five years of material up.

50 minutes ago, Blue Five said:

It has a four die attack and spends most of the time at four agility. When compared to the majority of the game it's still a very strong ship. I stand by what I said in the TIE fighter thread: the TIE fighter's the benchmark and most of the game is clustered around that. The small set of combos above the TIE need dragging down as the alternative is trying to pull five years of material up.

The Tie Phantom does have 4 attack dice and can have 4 evade dice, but not at the same time. Even with ACD, there is still a large window where your 40ish point ship is as vulnerable as a Z95. Since the Phantom came out(Wave 4), there have been many, many, many ships/pilots that can be used at PS9( or higher with VI) and several of them are PWTs. So the old days of decloak, shoot first, recloak are gone, because you can't arc dodge and can't always shoot first. So very often in order to shoot, you are risking your ships life. And if you just try to shoot every other turn(or even less often) then almost half of your list isn't helping you on offense, just for the hope that 4 greens will save you(and we all know how likely they are to fail you) Phantoms are at this point over-costed when compared to current meta lists. Does that mean they need to be buffed or do you, like me, think that the power creep should be curbed?

8 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

After reading up on the history of the TIE Phantom from its first release in confusion, to its rise in power, throughout the complaining that it might destroy all new players interest in the game, to the designers nerf, and throughout its decline from real viability. In correlation to the entire game, we can all point to many beloved ships that have seen their viability on the mat decline, and many have been offered some buffs, in minor ways, and there are still cries for help. Other than the Punisher and the Karaxeraxers, the buffs have come.

Am I nuts? Perhaps. Was the Phantom issued just a few Waves too early? Perhaps the simple fix is the best fix. What if FFG just removed the TIE Phantom’s note in the FAQ? Wouldn’t this assist not only this expensive and rarely used ship, but give the designers a much-needed congratulations for the original, and quite amazing, design?

Yeah, I’m probably nuts.

Really I think the biggest issue with the Phantom right now is guaranteed damage, which was never really brought out with the Phantom in mind. With this so common the Phantom has taken a backseat as it is crushed by this. I think as things shift around the Phantom will see a comeback naturally, as it is still in a good place against so many other ships.

The phantom is in a strange state:

During high-tier tournament play it can hold its own, mostly due to good pilots and a better escort in the list.
During casual tournaments it can truly flop - I've killed Whisper on turn 1 just through lucky dice, and their pilots are generally predictable.
During casual play they are enormously overpowered, however. And new player will get curb-stomped by the insanity.+

WE NEED TO FIX THE PHANTOM TO CHANNEL JIM CHADS HATE INTO CREATING A NEW SHIP 6 BASE ATTACK TIE SHIP.....

11 hours ago, heychadwick said:

More than just one bad experience. It's also horrible from a design perspective. If you look at the high PS pilots with ACD then your list either has the tools to beat it or it doesn't have the tools to beat it and it curb stomps you. Having an effective Tie Phantom at high PS with ACD pretty much requires your opponent to have a high PS ship that can fire before it and most likely have a turret. The tools to beat the Tie Phantom are utterly "meta warping" to use FFG's own terminology. It's bad game design and it's a bad ship to have in the game.

It's also horrible in Epic and in so many missions, too.

Sounds like to me it's more a problem with Pilot Skill.

As if IT shouldn't exist/work the way it does...

I used my MS Paint skills for this one.

12 hours ago, heychadwick said:

Yes, you are nuts. The Tie Phantom should need an entire re-write before it is allowed back in the game. Knock it's attack value down to 3 and remove Advanced Cloaking Device from the game. Then I'll be fine with letting it back in. It's a terrible ship as it is now and you either can easily beat it or it can easily beat you. It's the worst example of rock/paper/scissors in the game. It's a horribly designed ship and should just be removed from the game. I @#$@# hate this ship.

YAH FFG blew it with the ship, but it can be fun when played with friends in a REAL STAR WARS Game... AKA; NOT ACE-WING!!!

STORY... not all of us ex-40K'ers played gaddam Ultra Marines with maxed out Devastator Squads in Heavy Cover and on MF'ing OVERWATCH!

GAMERS do this kinda stuff.

I am a HOBBYIST and only chill with the same... we have all kinds of fun.

1 hour ago, Cubanboy said:

WE NEED TO FIX THE PHANTOM TO CHANNEL J IM CHADS HATE INTO CREATING A NEW SHIP 6 BASE ATTACK TIE SHIP.....

YOUR FALLING JIMBO... WAKE UP... WAKE UP!!!

Oh yeah, the Phantom can have 6 attack dice when they release the x wing title that .

If you have 4 or more rookie pilots in a squad, raise their attack value to 6, that sounds fair to me

Or better yet, the new hope title

If you run wedge, luke and biggs, switch dial with tie defender and gain the x 7 title, sounds even more fair

Now if cloaking today was denerfed (or rebuff or whatever you want to call it) I think it would be interesting because now all three factions have access to the cloaking device through the illicit in the mist hunter (and rebels have Sabine's TIE). However I doubt FFG will revert one of their own pen and ink changes. Although considering how aggressive they have been in the last FAQ it is possible.

Still if they were to Aces/Veterans/Epic/Whatever the TIE Phantom I wouldn't mind seeing a unique PS 5 without EPT that has the pilot ability Before you reveal your dial if you are cloaked you may perform a decloak maneuver and discard the decloak token . Also an actual PS 8 or 9 Phantom (since cloak is still nerfed) would be interesting. Maybe with a pilot ability not as heavy as whisper. How about If you do not decloak in start of the activation phase assign an evade token to your ship .

8 minutes ago, TheOz said:

Oh yeah, the Phantom can have 6 attack dice when they release the x wing title that .

If you have 4 or more rookie pilots in a squad, raise their attack value to 6, that sounds fair to me

Or better yet, the new hope title

If you run wedge, luke and biggs, switch dial with tie defender and gain the x 7 title, sounds even more fair

Nah, just this title:

"Plot Armor

-100 points

Luke Skywalker, Han Solo or Wedge Antilles only

This ship can never be removed from play.

Also increase your attack value by 20"

1 minute ago, Warlon said:

Nah, just this title:

"Plot Armor

-100 points

Luke Skywalker, Han Solo or Wedge Antilles only

This ship can never be removed from play.

Also increase your attack value by 20"

You forgot Imperial Only, Signature Villain, Darth Vader only, Unique. This ship can only be removed if it is the last ship remaining.

18 hours ago, Engine25 said:

When was the last release that didn't include canon content?

This isn't a problem, but it's definitely a signal that canon is the priority.

Assaj isn't canon, nor's Latts, nor's IG88, so... you know, Wave 9. About 6 months ago.

Not to mention the as-yet unreleased C-ROC with Scyk enclosed. Which was noted in the post you quoted...

19 hours ago, heychadwick said:

The chances of 4 Rookie X-wings vs the 2 named Phantom pilots is incredibly slim.

What's your point? The chances of 4 Rookie X-Wings vs pretty much anything is incredibly slim.

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Assaj isn't canon, nor's Latts , nor's IG88, so... you know, Wave 9. About 6 months ago

Actually The Clone Wars is considered canon under the Mouse's rule. Conveniently, Asajj and Latts are on the same bounty hunting team, along with Boba Fett, Embo and Dengar. They're onscreen and named as such.

As for IG-88, I don't quite know, but numerous IG models are shown onscreen, one of them may be "him".

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What's your point? The chances of 4 Rookie X-Wings vs pretty much anything is incredibly slim.

4 Rookies are the natural predator of 4 Punishers. Rookies are preyed upon by Kihraxzes, which outnumber the vulnerable Rookie...

22 minutes ago, Astech said:

4 Rookies are the natural predator of 4 Punishers. Rookies are preyed upon by Kihraxzes, which outnumber the vulnerable Rookie...

I want this read by David Attenborough.

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Phantoms are at this point over-costed when compared to current meta lists. Does that mean they need to be buffed or do you, like me, think that the power creep should be curbed?

I think if the TIE phantom and TIE fighter are starting to seriously be considered overpriced then yes, we do need to find the force multiplying upgrade cards and beat them to death with the nerf bat. Prike hikes via a Netrunner-style Most Wanted List is my favoured method.

21 hours ago, heychadwick said:

More than just one bad experience. It's also horrible from a design perspective. If you look at the high PS pilots with ACD then your list either has the tools to beat it or it doesn't have the tools to beat it and it curb stomps you.

How is that different from Triple Defenders/Palpfenders, Dengaroo, Rebel regen lists of the past, Fat Han, up until the MoV nerf, etc. ?

Please no.