4 hours ago, heychadwick said:

these guys don’t want to put the time and effort into X-wing to become tournament level at the game. They play other games. They don’t want to have to study the latest and greatest to know what is out there and how to beat it. They just want to pick up some X-wings and fly them on the table. When they go against the tournament level lists that some people always play they have negative play experiences.

Forget nerfs and buffs to the ships. . .THIS is the biggest hurdle X-Wing faces as a game. Everyone says that "if it works in 100/6, then it will be good for the game as a whole." Which is true. . .from a certain point of view.

Even if Heychadwick is exaggerating, and only 1/3 of the people who pick it up quit due to the steep learning curve, that's a lot of players lost to the "git gud" X-Wing mentality. And none of their friends are going to try the game, either, since they will be told it's not that fun to get curb stomped by pros til you earn your wings.

I definitely had a strong period of frustration in my "career" when I felt like I would never be able to win, and was ready to quit. I have never had that feeling about a game I wanted to play before. . .and Decipher's SWCCG was a pretty lousy game (my group never played it the "real" way; we created a homebrew that really just involved having to use the cards).

Not to derail the thread, but this is the fallacy that I see in the notion that tournament X-Wing feeds casual X-Wing. . .and unless FFG wants to make X-Wing an elitist-only kind of game, they need to make a concerted effort to appeal to a broader audience.

4 hours ago, Luke C said:

Remember, HeyChadwick doesnt care about anything competitive, he just wants his 4 rookies to be at the top of the casual meta, dangit!!

See above. I think the best thing about Heychadwick is that he has a passion for the whole game, not just one element in it.

The phantom is one of the worst offenders for NPE, casual or Tournament level.

If you were around for 86pt phantoms tabling 100pt lists at tournaments you know it wasn't pretty. We also did the 4 xwing challenge. Whisper can solo 120pts of xwings in a casual enviornment. Why? ACD and pre-nerf rules. One of those isn't as big a deal anymore, one of them is just as big a problem.

2 hours ago, heychadwick said:

these guys don’t want to put the time and effort into X-wing to become tournament level at the game. They play other games. They don’t want to have to study the latest and greatest to know what is out there and how to beat it. They just want to pick up some X-wings and fly them on the table.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

this is the fallacy that I see in the notion that tournament X-Wing feeds casual X-Wing

Wow, I'm beginning to wonder if you guys are talking about me? Yes absolutely that is the game I'm looking for. We have game nights where we play Catan, Cosmic Encounter, Code Names, Zombiecide or whatever someone is in the mood for or brought.

I will never be on a tournament level and this constant power creep of newer and newer upgrades has pushed some of the people we play with completely out of the game. It is quite frankly too complex of a game for many casual players and the tournament lists haven't helped. I hate to make the comparison but we also play Wings of Glory, there I can grab any of several dozens of missions. Select the planes and have a game within 15 minutes of someone saying, 'let's play this'; this for an completely unplanned game is quite the opposite of X-Wing. WoG is still very an enjoyable fun game and, oddly enough, very well balanced. Worrying about a 20+ faq and what words have been changed on what cards, having to review a timing chart just for combat that takes up an entire page, the endless combinations that can win the game before you've even placed your ships all add to the mix. We still have two people that enjoy Star Wars, but they've only started introducing the upgrade cards to their play. It will be interesting to see where that goes.

4 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

FFG knows the TIE Phantom is so broken it is nearly unfixable. Hence the TIE Striker, which is essentially a revamped version of the repositioning mechanic sans cloaking.

Um, I'm not thinking FFG thinks its "so broken"...in its post FAQ, it's good but not outstanding. I just purchased a Striker, haven't flown her yet....I have high hopes, but the latest Imperial ships have been hummmmmmmmm, OK.

3 hours ago, heychadwick said:

I’d say that about half the people who get into X-wing end up quitting in a few months. Why is that? There are a number of factors, but the majority of the reason is that these guys don’t want to put the time and effort into X-wing to become tournament level at the game. They play other games. They don’t want to have to study the latest and greatest to know what is out there and how to beat it. They just want to pick up some X-wings and fly them on the table. When they go against the tournament level lists that some people always play they have negative play experiences. Tournaments are popular and people like playing highly competitive games. They want to practice for tournaments. They want to play cutting edge X-wing. I get that. Not everyone does, though. I’ve seen people say that you either need to “git gud” or “maybe this game isn’t for you”. Personally, I think this can be a really fun game for the causal gamer who doesn’t want to have to put up with all the “meta” and just wants to roll dice and go pew pew. I don’t think every tournament player should be forced to play with guys who don’t want to play at that level. I think communication and understanding on both sides of this can make this a not bad situation. As it is, I’ve seen about half of everyone who gets into X-wing quit because they just don’t want to have to work at something they see as a fun hobby as much as the other half. When they play, it’s just not fun for them.

I'm glad I haven't run into those guys; that would really stink up the place. The few I've played who really know how to fly have been gracious and a load of fun, pressure free as they try tactics; putting themselves in crazy and edgy situations against me (the novice) and see if they can get out of dodge or spring a trap against ridiculous odds. I say if someone is that kinda fellow and you don't want a slice of that pressure, beg off and find a chill, pew-pew kinda guy, they're certainly out there. Beer helps too (if you have permission).

3 hours ago, Makaze said:

Now though there are numerous ways to deal with a Phantom besides high PS. Stress, whether from something like a stress bot or Asajj, pretty well wrecks them as it prevents the recloak. Zuckuss is murder, large base auto blasters, bumpmasters, TLTs, HotCoP/Gunner PWTs, there's a long list of stuff that chews through Phantoms pretty effectively these days and most all of it is pretty good in a variety of situations and so is prevalent in the meta

This.

I think many old-dudes who remember way back when Wave 2, 3 and 4 as the growing evil. I see them rock back and forth as they tell horror stories around the glowing wood stove; warning young men of the beasts that use to stalk them on the way to school. I think the monster is not only dead, it might be now balanced and quite a bit over-costed.

2 hours ago, Rakky Wistol said:

The SPA sigma saw some play and for a very brief window ADV + Stigian (before a rules clarification and nerf) double decloak was nice as either you were cloaked with focus or decloaked with double evade tokens.

ACD is the real problem. A real auto-include in the mod slot. Like others have noted, it's not as dangerous as it used to be, it has lots of slots to help it out, and doesn't have a title yet . I'd love to see some help to make it more interesting again.

Maybe this is the way to get Phantoms streaking cloaked on the mat again pew-pewing in good Imp squads as one of three (no ACD but a title that makes it cool but cost-effective), not be the overpriced glass cannon with no pzazz left to show-off against our current meta, would certainly be an awesome thing to behold.

[Deleted]

Apologies. My mistake.

On 2/2/2017 at 10:43 AM, heychadwick said:

Jumpmaster and Misthunter technically haven't been in any new canon stuff.

I think the focus for FFG has just been about new stuff to match the current tv show and movies. It's not so much stuck on only doing new stuff, but there is so much new stuff coming out that it's got it's hands full.

Yeah. I'm still waiting for Mining Guild TIES to come out for Scum!

23 minutes ago, Ken at Sunrise said:

Since you're so gracious the next time I find myself in Raleigh, NC I'll try to not stink you your place, and see if there are other places to game.

I do think, however, that you confirmed the very point heychadwick was making.

FWIW, although I did have to double-check myself, I think he was saying he's glad he hasn't run into the obnoxious hard-core type, not the new, fly-casual type. It just wasn't very clear without a close parsing.

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If you don't think about the power level of tournament games, then I think X-wings aren't so bad.

See, this is the problem. You're trying to determine the balance state of the TIE phantom with respect to the entire game (minus the nerfbait combos that dominate the tournament scene) by comparing it to a list comprised entirely of one ship widely believed to be in need of a hefty overhaul.

The current X-wing is a ship with a decent statline, underwhelming mobility and only the basic two actions. Another ship that fits that description is the Lambda-class shuttle. You can run a list of four generic Lambda shuttles with a few upgrades and just like your 4x Rookie X-wing list the TIE phantom's probably going to win.

Why? Because the Lambda maneuvers like, well, a shuttle. The TIE phantom is a highly mobile ship and the Lambda shuttle is not. The TIE phantom's strong against generics and the Lambda player has four generic Lambdas. The TIE phantom will jump into their predictable blind spots and the Lambda can't do much about it. The shuttle's mobility is so poor that even if its player knows exactly where the TIE phantom will go they'll struggle to point their guns in the direction to take advantage of it.

So will the TIE interceptor, a ship arguably more effective at arc dodging. The TIE interceptor can reposition reactively. Post errata the TIE phantom cannot: it must choose where to go before seeing your maneuvers. So can the Fang Fighter. So can Darth Vader. So can the A-wing. So can just about any ship that's highly mobile. Is the reason for the crushing defeat of the Lambda squad that these highly mobile ships are bad designs? Or is it because the Lambda player took four Lambdas and therefore quadruply stacked their mobility weakness?

The problem isn't the TIE phantom: post errata it's not a generic stomp. It may have a lot of green dice but they're not the triply modified green dice of the tournament scene. Predict its decloak correctly and those dice will eventually fail it under heavy fire and there's only four health underneath them. The problem is the X-wing's pathetic mobility. If a B-wing guesses the decloak and subsequent maneuver correctly it has the dial and actions to place itself to fire on the TIE phantom from a favourable position. The X-wing doesn't. It has a standard firing arc, no repositioning actions with which to expand its dial (the utility of those actions goes far beyond arc dodging) and unlike the Kihraxz it has no tight moves to partially compensate. It might have a 4-straight but it handles like a space truck.

Yes, a list of generalist starfighters should be able to have a shot at defeating all comers and the generalist fighters that exist have a good shot against the TIE phantom. The X-wing we have now however is not a generalist starfighter: mechanically it belongs with the shuttles.

14 hours ago, Blue Five said:

The X-wing we have now however is not a generalist starfighter: mechanically it belongs with the shuttles.

Grossly over exaggerating here. Anything with a Koiogran turn is a fighter. ANYTHING.

Also, people conveniently tend to forget that the phantom already has to pay 4 points to gain its 'incredible mobility', or else he must choose between 'mobility' or attacking. I'm sure the X-wing can choose to pay 4 points to gain more mobility too.

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Grossly over exaggerating here. Anything with a Koiogran turn is a fighter. ANYTHING.

What about the Attack Shuttle ?

If you're going to make a block caps universal statement like that at least check through all the ships first to avoid embarrassment.

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Also, people conveniently tend to forget that the phantom already has to pay 4 points to gain its 'incredible mobility', or else he must choose between 'mobility' or attacking. I'm sure the X-wing can choose to pay 4 points to gain more mobility too.

Are you trying to paint Engine Upgrade on an X-wing and ACD on a TIE phantom as somehow equivalent? Really?

ACD turns the TIE phantom into a monster that before the decloak change was meta warping. An Engine Upgrade Rookie Pilot costs more than a T-70. I'm not sure how you can draw this comparison with a straight face.

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Grossly over exaggerating here. Anything with a Koiogran turn is a fighter. ANYTHING.

Given that neither the Lambda nor the X-wing have native repositioning actions, one could argue the stationary maneuver is as valuable as the 4K.

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Also, people conveniently tend to forget that the phantom already has to pay 4 points to gain its 'incredible mobility', or else he must choose between 'mobility' or attacking. I'm sure the X-wing can choose to pay 4 points to gain more mobility too.

I guess people conveniently forget that TIE Interceptors must pay 2 points for their "incredible anti-turret power."
The fact remains that ships need upgrades to be good, and the T-65 literally has no good options to compensate for its flaws.

47 minutes ago, Blue Five said:

What about the Attack Shuttle ?

If you're going to make a block caps universal statement like that at least check through all the ships first to avoid embarrassment.

Then, I'd simply bold the other part of the name:

Attack Shuttle

Which implies that it's a shuttle that is meant to fight, ie, a fighter.

59 minutes ago, Blue Five said:

Are you trying to paint Engine Upgrade on an X-wing and ACD on a TIE phantom as somehow equivalent? Really?

ACD turns the TIE phantom into a monster that before the decloak change was meta warping. An Engine Upgrade Rookie Pilot costs more than a T-70. I'm not sure how you can draw this comparison with a straight face.

I'm certainly trying to paint together upgrades that enhance maneuvering and are cost equivalent. Specially since without ACDs, phantoms would have the durability of a Z-95, for nearly twice the cost. Engine upgrade remains one of the most used modifications (if not the most) in the game, for a reason.

35 minutes ago, Astech said:

Given that neither the Lambda nor the X-wing have native repositioning actions, one could argue the stationary maneuver is as valuable as the 4K.

I guess people conveniently forget that TIE Interceptors must pay 2 points for their "incredible anti-turret power."
The fact remains that ships need upgrades to be good, and the T-65 literally has no good options to compensate for its flaws.

One could argue that, and he'd always lose the argument. Simply, just ask the Lambda which of the two maneuvers will it prefer on a heartbeat.

And not having 'good options' is totally subjective. I see T-65 pilots with better abilities than T-70 ones, (Luke Skywalker's ability is better's than Poe's one, for example). I see T-65s with the ability to discard one damage (including a critical hit) per game, I see T65 regenerating damage... The X-wing is not a bad ship, It's only just 'average'... In a world where everyone want specialists.

But wasn't this thread about phantoms?

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One could argue that, and he'd always lose the argument. Simply, just ask the Lambda which of the two maneuvers will it prefer on a heartbeat.

The lambda would say that it it wanted to have a 2-turn that wasn't red. The 0 maneuver is invaluable on a ship that can't turn around, and on the Lambda is probably just as good as a K-turn.

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And not having 'good options' is totally subjective. I see T-65 pilots with better abilities than T-70 ones, ( Luke Skywalker 's ability is better's than Poe 's one, for example). I see T-65s with the ability to discard one damage (including a critical hit) per game, I see T65 regenerating damage... The X-wing is not a bad ship, It's only just 'average'... In a world where everyone want specialists.

Luke's ability only works on defense, for one. Poe can equip autothrusters, making him an innately better tank. T-70s can equip integrated astromech as well, so that point is moot (not to mention most other ships having the correct amount of HP in the first place). The E-wing is vastly better with R2-D2 (and Poe tops the R5-P9 charts). The x-wing is an absurdly horrible ship with little chance of winning a game against anything other that Punishers or HWKs without turrets.

As for the phantom, it does not yet deserve a buff. There are numerous popular, canonical ships that have been patiently waiting in line for their buff, and it hasn't come yet. The Phantom is still better than X-wings, Z-95s, etc.

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Then, I'd simply bold the other part of the name:

Attack Shuttle

Which implies that it's a shuttle that is meant to fight, ie, a fighter.

Doesn't make it not a shuttle.

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I'm certainly trying to paint together upgrades that enhance maneuvering and are cost equivalent. Specially since without ACDs, phantoms would have the durability of a Z-95, for nearly twice the cost. Engine upgrade remains one of the most used modifications (if not the most) in the game, for a reason.

Then by all means stick Engine Upgrade on your TIE fighters. If it's four points worth of value wherever then why not put it on your Bandit Squadron Pilots too?

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And not having 'good options' is totally subjective. I see T-65 pilots with better abilities than T-70 ones, (Luke Skywalker's ability is better's than Poe's one, for example). I see T-65s with the ability to discard one damage (including a critical hit) per game, I see T65 regenerating damage... The X-wing is not a bad ship, It's only just 'average'... In a world where everyone want specialists.

The X-wing canonically is a generalist starfighter. The X-wing mechanically is not, it's a ship with very poor positioning ability relative to its alternatives. It's less maneuverable than the Attack Shuttle and the B-wing which means it struggles more against highly maneuverable enemy ships.

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But wasn't this thread about phantoms?

If you're going to jump in mid conversation at least have the courtesy to read up on the context.

To talk about Phantoms again... Firstly Phantoms are fine. They simply require a lot of practice. Secondly ACD is the only upgrade that makes Phantoms work properly.

If you want to bring Phantoms back to the table and see more unique builds the answer isn't nerf ACD or make a title. Its simple. FAQ the cloak/decloak reference card to allow decloaking as an action that you declare at the beginning of the round. Simply mark the cloak token with a crit marker on top to show that you have commited to the action. If you cannot decloak during your perform action step, you lose your action and remain cloaked.

How is that for a phantom fix? Let's you do crazy stuff, minimal rewriting, and comes with a huge downside if you mess up. Sounds like just the thing to make people like me want to try jank ass ****!

PS: X-Wing is fine. Grab your Dormitz and get flying.