I think overall, Rebel Captive or Vader are just as nasty in that 3 point HSCP/Gunner RAC as Kylo is, it all depends on which sort of target you want to specialize agaisnt.

7 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I think overall, Rebel Captive or Vader are just as nasty in that 3 point HSCP/Gunner RAC as Kylo is, it all depends on which sort of target you want to specialize agaisnt.

This is what I think the case will be. Vader RAC is great against high AGI/low HP ships, whereas Kylo RAC is great against low AGI/high HP lists. It's just flavoring what you want RAC to have a better matchup against.

I think Captive comes out on top at the moment. Shuts down Expertise, screws with Mindlink, and stress is always annoying.

Operations specialist is also interesting in theory because of the "miss, op spec myself, gunner" option. Rebel captive and Vader both seem fine too though.

You think so small

Miss, op spec Rexlar...

Or, you know, Kylo pilot with Ops Spec and FCS and Gunner...

Many have pointed out that 4 dice and gunner seem excessive

Not to mention getting shots with the ups aint easy (easier than the lambda obv)

wouldnt invest in its offense too heavily, just fcs and maybe expertise

know what my first impression was when i opened that box?

"Wow this has a ton of cards in it...."

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Many have pointed out that 4 dice and gunner seem excessive

Not to mention getting shots with the ups aint easy (easier than the lambda obv)

wouldnt invest in its offense too heavily, just fcs and maybe expertise

FCS and Expertise is only a point less than Gunner, and buzzsaw Phantoms are a thing that suggests that GUnner and 4 dice isn't remotely excessive.

27 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I think Captive comes out on top at the moment. Shuts down Expertise, screws with Mindlink, and stress is always annoying.

[Sigh] And here I thought I was being so clever by putting Rebel Captive on Kylo. Guess it was pretty obvious that this upgrade would make a splash in the current meta. I need to prepare to face Rebel Captive and Darth Vader squads now.

Played in a store tournament last night. Flew a Kylo RAC list (variant), and almost everyone else was, too...

Last match was against MajorJuggler and we both decided, after two prior similar matches and this one dragging out... Kylo isn't very fun on either side and he really outlives his usefulness after a couple triggers. Sure, this was a bit colored in one direction, due to constant Decimator vs Decimator slugfests, but I think it will, in the end, hold true in other matches as well.

Also, MajorJuggler is a bit of a troll for using the old damage deck >.<

Against some lists, sure, it's going to be an issue. TLTs have the same effect, as did Trip Jumps. There are probably more ways to deal with Kylo than others, though.

I think Kylo will be most useful in a list where he can ride in a scimitar shuttle and you have enough mid skill ships that you actually can realistically use a variety of crits (ps 0, stunned pilot) so he's not basically just 'go get blinded pilot'.

RAC usually roams at ps 10 and costs so much you don't have much room for accompanying blockers meaning you look for blinded twice and maybe ps 0 add then you have very few instances of that action being useful.

27 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

Played in a store tournament last night. Flew a Kylo RAC list (variant), and almost everyone else was, too...

Last match was against MajorJuggler and we both decided, after two prior similar matches and this one dragging out... Kylo isn't very fun on either side and he really outlives his usefulness after a couple triggers.

It's interesting that, even if Kylo doesn't become as dominating as some fear, I have yet to hear anyone say they think he's actually "fun." A mechanic can be broken and still be fun or interesting, but I think that's pretty telling about the design here that this card doesn't seem all that exciting.

3 minutes ago, AlexW said:

It's interesting that, even if Kylo doesn't become as dominating as some fear, I have yet to hear anyone say they think he's actually "fun." A mechanic can be broken and still be fun or interesting, but I think that's pretty telling about the design here that this card doesn't seem all that exciting.

I mean, he's also on a PWT which is very difficult to make fun or interesting

Just now, AlexW said:

It's interesting that, even if Kylo doesn't become as dominating as some fear, I have yet to hear anyone say they think he's actually "fun." A mechanic can be broken and still be fun or interesting, but I think that's pretty telling about the design here that this card doesn't seem all that exciting.

For me personally, it was partially due to how it slows down the game -- searching damage decks is kind of annoying, and a new kind of slowdown.

Also, it promoted slowing down the game via other tactics, such as making as many ships as possible PS 0 (which lengthens the planning phase a bit -- opinion), to causing ships to miss rounds of firing (which is clearly one of the best effects, but it can slow the game down, and REALLY slows it down with opposing RACs).

Also, after MJ pointed out the inconsistencies with the old damage deck, that's yet another thing that Kylo is going to dredge up that is unfortunate (while I was always against forcing people to buy a TFA core set for the new damage deck, I did agree that the new damage deck should be the requirement -- they just needed to offer it outside of a core).

5 minutes ago, AlexW said:

It's interesting that, even if Kylo doesn't become as dominating as some fear, I have yet to hear anyone say they think he's actually "fun." A mechanic can be broken and still be fun or interesting, but I think that's pretty telling about the design here that this card doesn't seem all that exciting.

That's just because the people using the card probably didn't have enough Kylo Ren quotes memorized to drop on their opponents. That makes it super fun. I've done my homework, and I'm so ready to bring the master of the Knights of Ren into battle!

On a more serious note, it sounds like Kylo Ren is a little annoying, but RAC is what makes it so powerful/uninteresting. I guess that's not surprising. But how much of the lack of fun is due to fear? I mean, once people realize the limitations, do you think they will be prepared in how they approach it? That could give them hope and dispel the fear and allow them to have a good time. Maybe? I'm just trying to pin down why the fun disappears.

2 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

That's just because the people using the card probably didn't have enough Kylo Ren quotes memorized to drop on their opponents. That makes it super fun. I've done my homework, and I'm so ready to bring the master of the Knights of Ren into battle!

On a more serious note, it sounds like Kylo Ren is a little annoying, but RAC is what makes it so powerful/uninteresting. I guess that's not surprising. But how much of the lack of fun is due to fear? I mean, once people realize the limitations, do you think they will be prepared in how they approach it? That could give them hope and dispel the fear and allow them to have a good time. Maybe? I'm just trying to pin down why the fun disappears.

lack of fun is due to complete lack of counterplay short of dice in a game about tactics and maneuvering

which is PWT M.O, sadly

the thing that makes it worse than usual is blinded pilot can remove what little need a PWT has to care about maneuvering as you don't even get to return fire while those cards exist in your deck

unless, again, the dice treat you right

36 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

On a more serious note, it sounds like Kylo Ren is a little annoying, but RAC is what makes it so powerful/uninteresting. I guess that's not surprising. But how much of the lack of fun is due to fear? I mean, once people realize the limitations, do you think they will be prepared in how they approach it? That could give them hope and dispel the fear and allow them to have a good time. Maybe? I'm just trying to pin down why the fun disappears.

I think there could be a lot of reasons, but Arbitrary Nerd sums them up pretty well and I think shows how they could apply beyond just the decimator. That said, it's usually a combination that creates the emergence of the peak problems with a card. With the phantom, it was a combination of ACD, PS, the way decloak worked, it's high number of attack dice, etc...With Kylo the frustration (whatever form it takes) will be most apparent on RAC, where Hotshot, Gunner, higher PS, ability, title, and PWT make it likely to work very consistently.

50 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

For me personally, it was partially due to how it slows down the game -- searching damage decks is kind of annoying, and a new kind of slowdown.

Also, it promoted slowing down the game via other tactics, such as making as many ships as possible PS 0 (which lengthens the planning phase a bit -- opinion), to causing ships to miss rounds of firing (which is clearly one of the best effects, but it can slow the game down, and REALLY slows it down with opposing RACs).

Also, after MJ pointed out the inconsistencies with the old damage deck, that's yet another thing that Kylo is going to dredge up that is unfortunate (while I was always against forcing people to buy a TFA core set for the new damage deck, I did agree that the new damage deck should be the requirement -- they just needed to offer it outside of a core).

Right, he's going to provide another reason to examine which crits are less harmful to a deck. The old deck is a lot more friendly to generic type lists (more pilot crit cards that don't affect it) while the newer deck is better for lists that have important pilot abilities.

4 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

I think Captive comes out on top at the moment. Shuts down Expertise, screws with Mindlink, and stress is always annoying.

How does rebel captive shuts down expertise? Does it give stress before I have to spend a focus token?

1 minute ago, Jedu said:

How does rebel captive shuts down expertise? Does it give stress before I have to spend a focus token?

They receive the stress upon declaring the ship with captive as a defender, so yes, it is way before the modify attack dice step

Kylo should probably cost less andget an 'in arc' requirement.

Everoyone is saying Kylo is no fun for both sides. I disagree when it comes to pilot. It adds another layer of decision-making when it comes to choosing targets and finally getting this crit after heavy planning is really rewarding.

Kylo pilot I find to be less problematic than the crew. The effect is significantly delayed and much easier for the opponent to plan and play around.

I have definitely seen people avoid shooting him WAY more than he merits though, which is fun.

All the more reason to bring Biggs.

Can't trigger the ability on Norra if you can't shoot her. And yeah, sure go ahead, give it to Biggs and shoot at him. Bet; i'll just pop IA and discard it.

I will out-bore the most boring new card available.