I know a great many people were saying the sky is falling when it comes to Kylo. I thought he would be good but not insanely meta defining. Boy was I wrong about that one. I played a few games against Kylo crew on RAC with gunner and Hotcop then a couple against Kylo pilot. These were the least fun games that I have ever played. I played Rebels and wanted to try to beat Kylo without running Determination. It was awful. Afterwards my opponent agreed with me that I Will Show You the Dark Side is the most broken card we have ever seen. Yes it has a hard counter in Determination but is it good game design to make that the ONLY viable EPT? What I struggle with is who in the hell thought this condition was a good idea? If you haven't played against it yet don't tell me I'm overreacting because you don't know how much it sucks to have hand picked crits screw you over when you can't do a **** thing about it. People like to complain about Palp but the real Dark Side is coming to a table near you soon.

End Rant.

Especially when Kylo is paired WITH Palp for the auto-converted Crit...Feels bad when you're flying anything with < 3 Agi + Focus + Evade!

That is exactly right. Kylo pilot is a great Palp carrier because if you try to kill him first you are screwed by IWSYTDS but if you leave him alone Palp still screws you!

Still think the pwt is more broken than kylo

Least you can outplay other ships with kylo, but not so here

Got some counters in IA (biggs) and chewie crew though

EDIT: keep forgetting bomber Ks

Not to mention it is a bit naf with a high ps list once you run out of blinded pilots. Ps 0 enemies were already lower ps, you cant bump for stunned pilots and shaken is generally just facedown damage

At 42 points a bat with Palp on it seems pricey.

4 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Still think the pwt is more broken than kylo

Least you can outplay other ships with kylo, but not so here

Got some counters in IA (biggs) and chewie crew though

Not to mention it is a bit naf with a high ps list once you run out of blinded pilots. Ps 0 enemies were already lower ps, you cant bump for stunned pilots and shaken is generally just facedown damage

My issue with Kylo is more about the experience of playing against it than the power. It is just not at all fun unless you have one of the 4 things that counter it. Did they not play test the condition and ask if the players had a good time? I bet they didn't because I know I had 0 fun against it.

Fun is largely subjective

For example, backdraft not spontaneously combusting because of kylo blinding the enemy could be fun

Also fun if you detest regen and some do

The condition can also be avoided through good play and not getting shot

Except against pwts because theyre kinda stupid

Goodnight, sweet Corran. You shall be missed....

32 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Fun is largely subjective

For example, backdraft not spontaneously combusting because of kylo blinding the enemy could be fun

Also fun if you detest regen and some do

The condition can also be avoided through good play and not getting shot

Except against pwts because theyre kinda stupid

Since Kylo's ship does not have to be the one to deal the crit the don't get shot argument goes out the window. If even one ship has a shot on you and Palpatine is around you are eating that crit unless you have X/7 levels of defense. Most 1 and 2 agility ships don't have a chance against him. Yes fun is subjective but why even sit down to play a game when you know you have no chance to win unless you packed the few counters?

I wonder of there's a chance that Kylo will actually turn out to be good for the game? Think about it.

Let's assume that Kylo becomes a big deal, as this thread suggests he will. He is best carried on Decimators, Lambdas or Upsilons, all low agility ships that struggle hard against swarms. Kylo in an Upsilon can be countered by ensuring that your highest PS ship has a way to counter ISYTDS - an X Wing with integrated, something with the Determination EPT, something that does damage without attacking like a Bomber K, etc. Alternately, stress will shut down Kylo crew fairly well, if you can pile enough on.

The point is - Kylo is countered best by TIE Swarms (lots of low dice attackers that minimise the effectiveness of his ability) and Rebel stress control or efficiency (BBBBZ) - both archetypes that are really struggling right now. Their predators won't go away, but will be somewhat suppressed by Kylo - at least in theory. I am worried about the ability for Kylp lists to hit defenders.

In the end, I think that's going to be the defining factor - the X7/Kylo matchup. If Kylo can reliably put a crit on Vessery or Ryad, it'll be a net benefit for the meta, bringing swarms back in from both the rebels and the imps. If not, we might see Defenders climb even higher above the pack.

32 minutes ago, MacchuWA said:

I wonder of there's a chance that Kylo will actually turn out to be good for the game? Think about it.

Let's assume that Kylo becomes a big deal, as this thread suggests he will. He is best carried on Decimators, Lambdas or Upsilons, all low agility ships that struggle hard against swarms. Kylo in an Upsilon can be countered by ensuring that your highest PS ship has a way to counter ISYTDS - an X Wing with integrated, something with the Determination EPT, something that does damage without attacking like a Bomber K, etc. Alternately, stress will shut down Kylo crew fairly well, if you can pile enough on.

The point is - Kylo is countered best by TIE Swarms (lots of low dice attackers that minimise the effectiveness of his ability) and Rebel stress control or efficiency (BBBBZ) - both archetypes that are really struggling right now. Their predators won't go away, but will be somewhat suppressed by Kylo - at least in theory. I am worried about the ability for Kylp lists to hit defenders.

In the end, I think that's going to be the defining factor - the X7/Kylo matchup. If Kylo can reliably put a crit on Vessery or Ryad, it'll be a net benefit for the meta, bringing swarms back in from both the rebels and the imps. If not, we might see Defenders climb even higher above the pack.

Nice writeup. I agree.

Wait, whats the list??

Why is kylo so good? explain? crew?

39 minutes ago, MacchuWA said:

I wonder of there's a chance that Kylo will actually turn out to be good for the game? Think about it.

Let's assume that Kylo becomes a big deal, as this thread suggests he will. He is best carried on Decimators, Lambdas or Upsilons, all low agility ships that struggle hard against swarms. Kylo in an Upsilon can be countered by ensuring that your highest PS ship has a way to counter ISYTDS - an X Wing with integrated, something with the Determination EPT, something that does damage without attacking like a Bomber K, etc. Alternately, stress will shut down Kylo crew fairly well, if you can pile enough on.

The point is - Kylo is countered best by TIE Swarms (lots of low dice attackers that minimise the effectiveness of his ability) and Rebel stress control or efficiency (BBBBZ) - both archetypes that are really struggling right now. Their predators won't go away, but will be somewhat suppressed by Kylo - at least in theory. I am worried about the ability for Kylp lists to hit defenders.

In the end, I think that's going to be the defining factor - the X7/Kylo matchup. If Kylo can reliably put a crit on Vessery or Ryad, it'll be a net benefit for the meta, bringing swarms back in from both the rebels and the imps. If not, we might see Defenders climb even higher above the pack.

Only for those who like to fly swarms. Personally I hate to fly in formation, it looks unrealistically, and is tiresome. Also flying ships with no abilities is less fun than using aces. May I add swarm lists require barely any tinkering or list building which is huge minus for me.

Ideally I would like to all archetypes to be equally playable - unfortunately with poorly designed cards like Kylo Ren it is difficult to achieve.

I swear these threads always start up before a new wave drops. Lets just wait at least a couple of weeks before we declare that the sky is falling. As with all new things, it will take a while to determine how to fly (and fly against) all the new stuff; Kylo included. Even if he drastically shakes up the meta (I'm not convinced he will), that's not really a bad thing is it? Personally I think 2-3 super-ship lists have had there time in the spotlight, and if Kylo starts to kill them off, then good riddance! I want to see 4+ ship lists make a comeback.

[Old Man voice]"Back in my day, there was no such thing as a two-ship list!"[/Old Man voice]

3 hours ago, TitaniumChopstick said:

Goodnight, sweet Corran. You shall be missed....

Slicer Tools didn't kill him, nor will Kylo.

1 hour ago, Embir82 said:

Only for those who like to fly swarms. Personally I hate to fly in formation, it looks unrealistically, and is tiresome. Also flying ships with no abilities is less fun than using aces. May I add swarm lists require barely any tinkering or list building which is huge minus for me.

Ideally I would like to all archetypes to be equally playable - unfortunately with poorly designed cards like Kylo Ren it is difficult to achieve.

Well, thats what Mindlink "swarms" are for, they should already be enough. Let RAC blind one of them and have the others smash away.

If Kylo worries you so much....

Advanced Homing Bobba Fett...

3 hours ago, Embir82 said:

Only for those who like to fly swarms. Personally I hate to fly in formation, it looks unrealistically, and is tiresome. Also flying ships with no abilities is less fun than using aces. May I add swarm lists require barely any tinkering or list building which is huge minus for me.

Ideally I would like to all archetypes to be equally playable - unfortunately with poorly designed cards like Kylo Ren it is difficult to achieve.

Nobody's going to force you to fly swarms - the swarm predators will still be out there, TIE Defenders and such. But right now, even veteran TIE swarm players have abandoned them because they're uncompetetive. If lists that are weak to swarms start to make their presence felt, the swarm will come back. It'll mean more diversity in your opponents, not necessarily that you have to change the kinds of lists you like to fly.

Welcome back Chewbacca

1 hour ago, MacchuWA said:

Nobody's going to force you to fly swarms - the swarm predators will still be out there, TIE Defenders and such. But right now, even veteran TIE swarm players have abandoned them because they're uncompetetive. If lists that are weak to swarms start to make their presence felt, the swarm will come back. It'll mean more diversity in your opponents, not necessarily that you have to change the kinds of lists you like to fly.

The problem with this analysis, though, is that high PS mobile turrets (and their wingmate), aren't actually all that vulnerable to swarms when played well. It's a consistent "theory" that is brought up, but we saw once Wave 5 hit was actually when swarms started to disappear from the meta. If they were truly a counter to high PS turrets and smaller ship lists, they would have actually gotten stronger at that point, but they actually needed crack shot in the next wave to keep them on life support.

5 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Wait, whats the list?? Why is kylo so good? explain? crew?

I'm thinking it's Kylo as a crew on a Decimator (stated by OP) or as a crew on another ship like a Lambda, TIE Shuttle, etc. I haven't seen him on a mat yet and although I have read the cards and write-ups on-line, I don't exactly know how it is so amazing. He seems good, but situational. I don't see him as the new Palp, but then again, I haven't seen the power of the dark side yet.

As an aside, if he can bring swarms back; please yes!! I can't see it; but I'm getting sick of lots of red dice and defensive over-toughness (power creep), so anything to reverse that trend would be welcome but seemingly impossible.

I think there's two real Decimator builds with Kylo (both on Chiraneau). First you have HSCP+Gunner to make sure RAC's range 1-2 crit goes through. This limits the reliable range of effect. Second you have Palpatine, which means a crit attack only has to be dodged once. Kylo on any other ship means no Palp aside from a few very odd combinations, so you're relying on natural crits or using EPTs/Guidance Chips to get crits.

Because of these limitations, I think 3-ship lists that can stack Focus/Evade at AGI3 are going to be okay more than they're not. So that's Defenders. What the card really does is screw easy to hit regenerating/high hp ships. Sorry Rebels. Integrated Astromech is certainly an option, and Corran might be okay if his wingman is good, thanks to his high defense. Overall, Determination Poe is probably not a bad ship, anyway.

Eric Berling, on the last Stay On Target, conjectured that we'd see a growth of 4-ship lists. This is what I think as well. You'll want a squad that can keep punching even when one ship is blinded (or hanging back until the Decimator is dead/out of range). The good thing is, lots of ships can contribute agaisnt Decimators, you don't need to pack specialists.

.

7 hours ago, MacchuWA said:

I wonder of there's a chance that Kylo will actually turn out to be good for the game? Think about it.

Let's assume that Kylo becomes a big deal, as this thread suggests he will. He is best carried on Decimators, Lambdas or Upsilons, all low agility ships that struggle hard against swarms. Kylo in an Upsilon can be countered by ensuring that your highest PS ship has a way to counter ISYTDS - an X Wing with integrated, something with the Determination EPT, something that does damage without attacking like a Bomber K, etc. Alternately, stress will shut down Kylo crew fairly well, if you can pile enough on.

The point is - Kylo is countered best by TIE Swarms (lots of low dice attackers that minimise the effectiveness of his ability) and Rebel stress control or efficiency (BBBBZ) - both archetypes that are really struggling right now. Their predators won't go away, but will be somewhat suppressed by Kylo - at least in theory. I am worried about the ability for Kylp lists to hit defenders.

In the end, I think that's going to be the defining factor - the X7/Kylo matchup. If Kylo can reliably put a crit on Vessery or Ryad, it'll be a net benefit for the meta, bringing swarms back in from both the rebels and the imps. If not, we might see Defenders climb even higher above the pack.

Well said. You're right that the extent to which Kylo influences the meta will depend on its ability to put damage through on the current meta builds (and I'd extend that to inlude mindlink of various guises).

From my experience of playing with a fat han (which has similar turret + mod abilities), more often than not I can put a damage through on a defender (although admittedly, they sometimes let one through to stop gunner - which you can't afford to do with Kylo).

If it turns out (and I haven't done the maths) that Kylo can reliably push damage onto 3 greens + focus, evade (and or autothrusters) then its possible the meta may swing back the way of swarms and Kylo RAC will become the new power build.

If it can't then I don't think we will see a return to swarms because they still won't be able to push damage onto x/7 defenders/high evade aces who aren't that worried by kylo. Ultimately, in this case I think it will probably have an adverse effect in the meta because it will push out high ps ships that can't stack tokens (mostly rebel aces, but also some large base ships).

The trouble with swarms right now is that they get thoroughly shut out by other things in the meta. A big Rey will blat a TIE a round, pretty reliably, and shrug off much of the damage from 2-die shots, just like Brobots do, so bringing a swarm is a touch risky when she's around.