Hey all, long time no see. :-) I got super-busy last year (lots of personal stuff), but I'm back now with a plot conundrum from my campaign that I'm hoping you all can help me solve. Context, as before, is the Togashi Dynasty AU, where everything's a bit more mystical and wuxia than usual, and history has followed a different path.

We're nearing the end of my campaign, and as a big dramatic moment I want to have something like the Twenty-Seven Days of Darkness, where Amaterasu came down to Ningen-do and so there was no sun in the sky. But we don't have Hitomi killing Onnotangu, etc; I want the reason for her departure to be something else.

Which got me thinking I could maybe kill two birds with one stone. I have a Kenku villain in the story, Tarōbō, who needs something major to do (has to do with the rest of the plot, which I'll spare you all because it would be long and complicated to explain). Maybe he's the reason Amaterasu comes down to earth? Kenku are tricksters, after all, and so he could trick her into doing it -- except then I have to explain how a simple Kenku, no matter how hard-core, is able to trick the frickin' SUN GODDESS.

And that's where my question for you all comes in. Any suggestions on how Tarōbō could deceive Amaterasu and get her out of Heaven? For an extended period of time, not just a case of "oops, sorry about that brief flicker, I'm back now." I have this vague notion of playing on the thing from real Japanese mythology where Amaterasu hid in a cave, but how does Tarōbō get her into the cave, and how does he keep her from getting back out again? Or are there other possibilities? Any and all suggestions are welcome, big and small.

I'm reminded of the story of the clay baby - the goddess is convinced by the trickster to hide herself and her new baby (that the trickster created out of clay) away from her jealous husband. If Onnantangu is still around in your AU -and considering how he reacted the last time they had kids - maybe Tarōbō convinces her to hide herself away in a cave.

That actually gives me an idea for how to maybe work with a possibility I had discarded -- and fittingly enough, given your username, it involves Ryoshun!

We've just had sort of an Oblivion's Gate moment -- not that actual event, but a big portal opening through which a lot of ancestors came, and now they're hanging around instead of going back to their realms. Hidden among all those ancestor spirits is Ryoshun (who had been in Meido until that point), and I'll probably have the PCs trying to find him, because their reward at the end (assuming they pull everything off) will be to form a new Great Clan in his name. So I originally thought about having Amaterasu come down to Ningen-do not because of Tarōbō, but because she's looking for her son. But I ran into the problem that we're doing something of a time-skip between the Gate incident and now, so I'd have to explain why Amaterasu waits for months before coming to look for him, and it doesn't solve my problem of needing to give Tarōbō something villainous to do. And he can't be doing anything that involves Ryoshun because one of the other villains he's working with is busy kidnapping descendants of the Kami (in a plot I'm basing loosely on the Cult of the Dead Moon) so they can sacrifice them all in a horrible ritual. In order to get all ten they need not only one from each of the Seven Great Clans and an imperial, but also the Dark Daughter of Fu Leng and Ryoshun himself. If Tarōbō knew where Ryoshun was, he'd just give the Kami over to his fellow villain, not use him as bait for Amaterasu.

BUT! Your clay-baby notion raises the possibility that Tarōbō doesn't have Ryoshun, but uses the idea of that anyway to trick Amaterasu. He could maybe convince her that her son has been reborn in Ningen-do, and she needs to protect him against Lord Moon by hiding. That keeps her from noticing them working on their horrible ritual (and distracts all the good guys because holy **** the world just went dark), while they try to capture the real Ryoshun . . .

Okay, that's a possibility. :-D I'm still open to other suggestions; there could be other possibilities that would work just as well or better. But at least now I have something more than a bunch of question marks on my sheet . . .

Does Ryoshun know that he is Ryoshun? (Don't laugh, Meido can do weird things to you)
You could have your villain find out Ryoshuns true identity and use that to his advantage. Or he could deceive your villains into thinking he gave them Ryoshun; Amaterasu would have to react, because better save than sorry, and you know mothers and long-gone children...

4 hours ago, Kinzen said:

I'd have to explain why Amaterasu waits for months before coming to look for him, and it doesn't solve my problem of needing to give Tarōbō something villainous to do.

You can say that she did not make her decision immediately but sat on it for a few months. I mean, Amaterasu is not a woman of short temper and quick decision making, we know that much! And Tarōbō has a cave to set up. It probably takes a lot more than your average kenku shenanigans to imprison the Sun Goddess.

6 hours ago, WHW said:

Does Ryoshun know that he is Ryoshun? (Don't laugh, Meido can do weird things to you)

Not laughing at all, because I'm already leaning toward the notion that he doesn't know. It's more interesting that way. :-)

I do, however, need to figure out how the PCs get involved with this. One of them is trained in a homebrew advanced school based on me going "oooh, there's a 3e school called Spirit Binder!" and then being hugely disappointed that the mechanics for it were nothing but a pile of Free Raises on spellcasting rolls; instead I made up something inspired by onmyoji, where they can form pacts with spirits as their servants. She's got a shikigami who's a koumori spirit out of Meido, so that's an easy in for how they find out about Ryoshun -- but I can't imagine the koumori would openly admit they misplaced a Kami. So how, with nothing but a description to go on and the whole Empire to search in, would the PCs go about finding him?

6 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

You can say that she did not make her decision immediately but sat on it for a few months. I mean, Amaterasu is not a woman of short temper and quick decision making, we know that much! And Tarōbō has a cave to set up. It probably takes a lot more than your average kenku shenanigans to imprison the Sun Goddess.

That's what I'm still sticking on. I'd like to have a better answer to how he imprisons her than just handwaving -- any suggestions? There's a non-Tainted troll involved (very very short version of the plot, the main villains are members of the Five Ancient Races from back in the City of Night days, and one of them is Tsuno Kishenku); I'm sort of enamored of the notion that the trolls back in the day built really cool machines, so the "clay baby" could be an automaton), but only gets me closer to figuring out how Amaterasu gets lured in. I still need to figure out why she's deceived by a clockwork kid, and why she isn't able to leave the cave.

There was like this plot device in the Thousand Years of Darkness setting, a crystal Fu Leng made to control Yume-do and enslave some Tsuno. Maybe it can be something like that, because the Ancient Five were high on mystical crystal stuff and the Troll dude might know a thing or two about creating "shackle crystals". But this isn't enough, we are talking about the Sun Goddess here after all. So T arōbō seeks out lots of these dead-mother-ghosts... you know, the ones that look like they want to give you their babies, and when you take the baby, it becomes super-heavy and crushes you. T arōbō uses soultwister magic to trap the essence of the ghosts into the Shackle Crystal and makes it look like baby!Ryoshun. When Amaterasu enters the cave, she sees the Shackle Crystal and senses the powerful motherly/baby energies it emits because of the mother-ghosts. She picks the crystal up, thinking that it is really baby!Ryoshun, but then the shackle magic activates, and combines with the mother-ghosts' curse it overwhelms Amaterasu. She is too powerful to be crushed, but the preternatural weight still pins her to the ground and renders her immobile and helpless. Not only that, but she doesn't want to drop the crystal: she feels the pain of the mother-ghosts and knows that if she can hold the crystal (their baby) long enough then they will be freed (cue in Amaterasu going half-crazy from her communion with the ghosts, making the PC's job considerably harder). You can even build the adventure with motherly themes and spin the drama around motherhood, lost children, and stuff like that.

Kenku are masters of illusion. Make the automaton move like living being, use Kenku illusions to make it look like proper Ryoshun, and...

...don't trick Amaterasu. Trick something else, something that she trust. She will descend into the cave on her own will to check it out. Why?

Because underground caves are one place where Sun cannot see, as her rays won't reach, no matter how hard she tries!

25 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

Not laughing at all, because I'm already leaning toward the notion that he doesn't know. It's more interesting that way. :-)

I do, however, need to figure out how the PCs get involved with this. One of them is trained in a homebrew advanced school based on me going "oooh, there's a 3e school called Spirit Binder!" and then being hugely disappointed that the mechanics for it were nothing but a pile of Free Raises on spellcasting rolls; instead I made up something inspired by onmyoji, where they can form pacts with spirits as their servants. She's got a shikigami who's a koumori spirit out of Meido, so that's an easy in for how they find out about Ryoshun -- but I can't imagine the koumori would openly admit they misplaced a Kami. So how, with nothing but a description to go on and the whole Empire to search in, would the PCs go about finding him?

I'm not so familiar with the lore of Rokugan as I should like to be, so I apologize in advance if this wouldn't fit somehow.

Could your heroes hear rumor of a man claiming to be Ryoshun, and gaining followers? Of course, they ultimately find that it is not the real Ryoshun (it could be either a charlatan looking to gain something or even some insane spirit who actually believes he's Ryoshun), but the real Ryoshun could be one of the followers (feeling that something is wrong about the man, yet still oddly drawn to him). The False Ryoshun could be independent of the villains, and even get kidnapped by mistake (perhaps before the heroes know he's false, thus setting up a situation of the heroes perhaps working with the real Ryoshun to rescue the false one, unwittingly putting the real one in more danger).

10 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

There was like this plot device in the Thousand Years of Darkness setting, a crystal Fu Leng made to control Yume-do and enslave some Tsuno. Maybe it can be something like that, because the Ancient Five were high on mystical crystal stuff and the Troll dude might know a thing or two about creating "shackle crystals". But this isn't enough, we are talking about the Sun Goddess here after all. So T arōbō seeks out lots of these dead-mother-ghosts... you know, the ones that look like they want to give you their babies, and when you take the baby, it becomes super-heavy and crushes you. T arōbō uses soultwister magic to trap the essence of the ghosts into the Shackle Crystal and makes it look like baby!Ryoshun. When Amaterasu enters the cave, she sees the Shackle Crystal and senses the powerful motherly/baby energies it emits because of the mother-ghosts. She picks the crystal up, thinking that it is really baby!Ryoshun, but then the shackle magic activates, and combines with the mother-ghosts' curse it overwhelms Amaterasu. She is too powerful to be crushed, but the preternatural weight still pins her to the ground and renders her immobile and helpless. Not only that, but she doesn't want to drop the crystal: she feels the pain of the mother-ghosts and knows that if she can hold the crystal (their baby) long enough then they will be freed (cue in Amaterasu going half-crazy from her communion with the ghosts, making the PC's job considerably harder). You can even build the adventure with motherly themes and spin the drama around motherhood, lost children, and stuff like that.

. . . oh, man. AtoMaki, you don't even realize what a genius suggestion that is. The VERY FIRST ADVENTURE the PCs went on involved a konak jiji -- the "heavy baby" critters. Having that reappear again at the end of the campaign would be frickin' HILARIOUS. :-D

An automaton that moves and cries, the spirit of a konak jiji to make it seem like it has a soul . . . waffling on whether I want her to be actually deceived or not. There's something beautifully tragic about Amaterasu thinking her dead child has been given a second chance, but that's more difficult to arrange.

9 minutes ago, WHW said:

Kenku are masters of illusion. Make the automaton move like living being, use Kenku illusions to make it look like proper Ryoshun, and...

...don't trick Amaterasu. Trick something else, something that she trust. She will descend into the cave on her own will to check it out. Why?

Because underground caves are one place where Sun cannot see, as her rays won't reach, no matter how hard she tries!

Mmm, interesting point about tricking someone Amaterasu trusts. I wonder if I could make that work with the koumori? He could beg a leave of absence from the PC's service to search for Ryoshun, think he's found him in baby form, tell Amaterasu, and then when the world goes dark he realizes he made a mistake and the only way to fix it is to get the PCs to find the real Ryoshun . . . it would mean I either need to have the world go dark soon or else delay their search for Ryoshun until later in this plot arc. Hmmmm. <rearranges plot bits, staring at them>

3 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I'm not so familiar with the lore of Rokugan as I should like to be, so I apologize in advance if this wouldn't fit somehow.

Could your heroes hear rumor of a man claiming to be Ryoshun, and gaining followers? Of course, they ultimately find that it is not the real Ryoshun (it could be either a charlatan looking to gain something or even some insane spirit who actually believes he's Ryoshun), but the real Ryoshun could be one of the followers (feeling that something is wrong about the man, yet still oddly drawn to him). The False Ryoshun could be independent of the villains, and even get kidnapped by mistake (perhaps before the heroes know he's false, thus setting up a situation of the heroes perhaps working with the real Ryoshun to rescue the false one, unwittingly putting the real one in more danger).

The main hurdle there would be that nobody (well, almost nobody) in Rokugan even knows that Ryoshun exists. So far as 99.99999999999% of the populace knows, including the foremost theologians, there were only ever nine Kami, not ten. (Which is why the players haven't yet guessed that the villains' plan to sacrifice "ten" means ten descendants of the Kami.)

. . . maybe I'm going at this backward. One PC and her NPC love interest have a vaaaaague memory of Ryoshun, because they remember some of their past lives and have a faint recollection of having seen him when they passed through Meido. I could skip the whole "searching for him" thing and just have them run into him -- they'll think they recall him from a previous life and he won't remember who he is, so he could be right there in the party without anybody realizing what's going on. Though I'd need to come up with a good plot reason for him to be there.

4 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

The main hurdle there would be that nobody (well, almost nobody) in Rokugan even knows that Ryoshun exists. So far as 99.99999999999% of the populace knows, including the foremost theologians, there were only ever nine Kami, not ten. (Which is why the players haven't yet guessed that the villains' plan to sacrifice "ten" means ten descendants of the Kami.)

Could one of the returned spirits know about him and believe himself to be Ryoshun? The fact that most people wouldn't believe in a 10th Kami seems like it would just make it more controversial and probably help the rumor spread faster (both by believers and by scoffers).

You can make it so that Amaterasu is not deceived - she walks into the trap all by her own, knowing full well what it is. Maybe at the entrance of the cave she has some sort of strange realization about how a horrible mother she was and comes to the conclusion that the cave and the strange contraption inside is her punishment. She kinda falls into the same kind of depression as in the canon, and gives way to a similar end.

This way you can even make a callback to the original story as the characters have to cheer up Amaterasu in order to "free" her rather than do the usual PC shenanigans.

I HAVE AN IDEA :-D

I've got two things going on here, right? Amaterasu with something she believes is baby!Ryoshun, and adult!Ryoshun walking around with no memory of who he is.

Any Scorpion will tell you the best lies are usually built out of the truth.

Somehow (more on this in a sec), Ryoshun's memories/divinity? have been separated from him. Tarōbō got hold of that and stuck it in the clockwork baby -- so when Amaterasu thinks that's her son, she isn't entirely wrong! She's mistaken in thinking he's been reborn (I should have nine months elapse between the Gate opening and the world going dark), but there's enough actual Ryoshun in the decoy that it makes sense she'd believe in it. And the only way to make Amaterasu leave the cave is to figure out that the dude they ran into a while ago is the other half of Ryoshun, so his memories/divinity/etc can be restored to him.

The question then becomes, how did Ryoshun get split like that? I believe the other Kami became mortal when they fell to Ningen-do, so it could be an automatic thing that Ryoshun left part of himself behind when he left Meido. Or Emma-o could have required it of him, as the price for letting him walk through the Gate. Or it could be something the villains did in order to make sure Ryoshun would be weak enough for them to sacrifice him -- though then I'd need to say a) how they managed that and b) how they then misplaced the rest of him.

9 months is not needed. Rokugani believe that soul which is "reborning" picks a baby after it's already born, which is why you need to take extra care during birth in order to make sure that no evil spirit will hijack the little screaming vehicle and claim it as it's own.

...I think that's how it was in one of rpg books, but it could have been overruled somewhere else.

34 minutes ago, WHW said:

9 months is not needed. Rokugani believe that soul which is "reborning" picks a baby after it's already born, which is why you need to take extra care during birth in order to make sure that no evil spirit will hijack the little screaming vehicle and claim it as it's own.

...I think that's how it was in one of rpg books, but it could have been overruled somewhere else.

Ah, fair point!

53 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

The question then becomes, how did Ryoshun get split like that?

I don't think this is actually possible. Not even Isawa's Twelfth Black Scroll could do this, only make Fu Leng's divinity go *poof* , and I can't really imagine anything more powerful coming into the picture without massive amount of lampshade hanging.

Maybe the conspirators could crash into the dream of an Asako Loremaster (or an equally well-educated person), and snatch a dream!Ryoshun from there?

18 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

I don't think this is actually possible. Not even Isawa's Twelfth Black Scroll could do this, only make Fu Leng's divinity go *poof* , and I can't really imagine anything more powerful coming into the picture without massive amount of lampshade hanging.

Maybe the conspirators could crash into the dream of an Asako Loremaster (or an equally well-educated person), and snatch a dream!Ryoshun from there?

I'm not sure why splitting him would be *more* difficult than making divinity go poof altogether. And it doesn't have to be something the villains did to him (I just need them to get hold of the missing piece); one of the possibilities I raised was that leaving some part of himself behind was the bargain Ryoshun made to enter the mortal world. It has precedent in the bargain the Thunder Dragon made on Yoritomo's behalf.

Ryoshuns divinity could be still in the Onnotangu's belly. That's pretty entertaining idea. Maybe someone wants to steal it.

45 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

I'm not sure why splitting him would be *more* difficult than making divinity go poof altogether.

Ah, it went *poof* like it was only suppressed, but Fu Leng regained it almost immediately after his death. I think Shinjo had a similar deal than what you are thinking about, but she went with the full reincarnation route.

47 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

And it doesn't have to be something the villains did to him (I just need them to get hold of the missing piece); one of the possibilities I raised was that leaving some part of himself behind was the bargain Ryoshun made to enter the mortal world. It has precedent in the bargain the Thunder Dragon made on Yoritomo's behalf.

Yeah, this is what I mean under the whole plot requiring some lampshade hanging. You need to get something so big for Ryoshun to lose his divinity than it will look more significant than Amaterasu sitting in a cave. I guess you want a story about Amaterasu and not Ryoshun, so I wouldn't put much focus on the guy. least he steals the show. But that's me !

Claybaby could be made from some moonstone that has fallen to earth. Part of onnotangus belly that contained Ryochan's divinity.

...I love all of this. Ryoshun's forgotten that he's Ryoshun. His mother needs the PCs to save him - but they're being manipulated by Tarōbō, who wants Amaterasu out of the heavens for his own nefarious purposes. Will they figure it out in time? Find out next, on Kinzen's Campaign!

Seriously, you've got to keep us posted on how this goes down.

I hope you are going to run another L5R campaign, these campaign notes are always entertaining :P.

Divinity sealed in a moonbaby could also lead into "Ryoshun + Clababy = Kami Ryoshun" --> "We need a proper Great Clan for this guy". It also could realistically fool her, because...imagine that you suddenly sense scent of your children, sealed deep underground. And you only know what happened to 9 out of 10. This could be your only and last chance, Sun Goddess!
I also love the idea that she will know that it's a foolish trap but will do it anyway out of guilt and in order to repent. Or maybe she will think "DivineBaby is here, but the soul is not; maybe it shattered on impact and is in another park of these dark caverns? Just a peek..."
Aaand months of darkness ensue.

On 2/3/2017 at 4:27 AM, JJ48 said:

Could one of the returned spirits know about him and believe himself to be Ryoshun? The fact that most people wouldn't believe in a 10th Kami seems like it would just make it more controversial and probably help the rumor spread faster (both by believers and by scoffers).

Isn't Ryoshun part of the 12 month/year zodiac cycle? I think it is all 10 kami then sun and moon to make up the 12. I am pretty sure it is listed in the RPG book next to the traditional Chinese animals. It is on page 34 of the 4th edition book.

Though it is really odd that apparently that means they acknowledged him as part of their calendar before they even knew he existed. Quite bizarre. Or did they have something else in that slot before finding out about Ryoshun and then replaced the old thing with him?

But if he is formally recognized by the religion, I think people would understand that a Kami by that name is supposed to exist-- then again, even more so than any other Kami, no one in the empire would really have any idea what he is supposed to look like.

On 2/3/2017 at 9:25 AM, WHW said:

I hope you are going to run another L5R campaign, these campaign notes are always entertaining :P.

Divinity sealed in a moonbaby could also lead into "Ryoshun + Clababy = Kami Ryoshun" --> "We need a proper Great Clan for this guy". It also could realistically fool her, because...imagine that you suddenly sense scent of your children, sealed deep underground. And you only know what happened to 9 out of 10. This could be your only and last chance, Sun Goddess!
I also love the idea that she will know that it's a foolish trap but will do it anyway out of guilt and in order to repent. Or maybe she will think "DivineBaby is here, but the soul is not; maybe it shattered on impact and is in another park of these dark caverns? Just a peek..."
Aaand months of darkness ensue.

It was never a priority to make a Great Clan to honor Ryoshun before. Otherwise I think the Badger could have had the Boar and Bat join them to form a tiny clan in his honor.

Also, after the throne passed through the hands of other Great Clans, no one has yet insisted that there be a Great Clan in Hantei's honor and thus have his loyalist step down from their posts and start acting like equals to everyone else.

Honestly, there were never meant to be "Clans" in the first place, it was just a way of organizing the humans. There isn't necessarily any necessity for every Kami to be honored by a Clan or for every Clan to honor a Kami.

Yeah, but Kinzen mentioned that she wants to make the grand final reward creating a Ryoshun-honoring Great Clan and making players its progenitors.

. . . you know, I totally forgot about the formal names for the calendar. We've just been using the animal names. I think I will have to handwave that and say the formal names aren't used in this version of the Empire.

And yes, for my campaign I'm intending to have them discover Ryoshun's existence and then found a Great Clan to honor him, regardless of how such things were handled in canon. It suits our story -- we have a lot of storylines converging toward a point where that makes sense.