Quite possibly the most finicky imperial list possible, but one that could be hilarious if you can pull it off:

Vt-49 Decimator- Rear Admiral Chiraneau (64)

• Emperor Palpatine
• Kylo Ren
• Predator
• Engine Upgrade

Tie Defender- Maarek Steele (36)

• Adaptability
• Tie/x7
• Stealth Device

the trick is that the list has both Kylo Ren and Maarek Steele. Kylo Ren's condition reads "...When you suffer critical damage from an attack, you are instead dealt the chosen faceup Damage card..." and Maarek's pilot ability reads "When your attack deals a faceup Damage card to the defender, instead draw 3 Damage cards, choose 1 to deal, and discard the others". When combined, these abilities allow you to bypass all shields, and then, based on who's shooting, choose whether to deal the chosen pilot crit OR choose one of three random crits drawn from the damage deck. This gives Maarek the ability to quite possibly one-shot any 2 hull ship WHILE they still have all of their shields. It also gives the decimator the ability to blind any ship at PS 8 (or any other normal Kylo Ren shenanigans). Probably not competitive, but it could be hilariously fun. Do you have any ideas with what to do with this upgrade combo? Please reply with whatever you think of

From what I've read, Kylo Ren would override Maarek's ability, always. Because the condition doesn't have a "may" clause anywhere, there is no choice in the matter.

On the other side of things, if you put any TIE Advanced with ATC into the mix, then Ren plus that would push those crits through shields. I like Vader with Juke or Lone Wolf, depending on playstyle. And Chirpy is fairly good at the crit generation himself too, so that's good in case Vader goes down too fast. On the flip side, Vader is a fantastic ace to be flying 1v1 against an enemy. He's not nearly as predictable as a defender either.

1 hour ago, Raven19528 said:

From what I've read, Kylo Ren would override Maarek's ability, always. Because the condition doesn't have a "may" clause anywhere, there is no choice in the matter.

On the other side of things, if you put any TIE Advanced with ATC into the mix, then Ren plus that would push those crits through shields. I like Vader with Juke or Lone Wolf, depending on playstyle. And Chirpy is fairly good at the crit generation himself too, so that's good in case Vader goes down too fast. On the flip side, Vader is a fantastic ace to be flying 1v1 against an enemy. He's not nearly as predictable as a defender either.

Hot Cop RAC & Vader is already making the rounds, pre-Kylo. Post Kylo, it's going to be a difficult nut to crack for two ship lists... Even three ships might struggle to put enough damage on either ship...

Yeah, I think I might bring this to the Wave X tourney we've got going at my LFGS tomorrow night. I was gonna go for a thematic Ups & FO Swarm Leader setup, but I think Hot Cop RAC w/ Kylo & Juke Vader might actually be competitive.

Man, the folks at my store are going to be so upset at you all for convincing me.

Yeah, none of this is right. It says "suffer a critical damage" not "roll a critical hit result" so no it doesn't ignore shields in any way.

4 hours ago, charlesanakin said:

Yeah, none of this is right. It says "suffer a critical damage" not "roll a critical hit result" so no it doesn't ignore shields in any way.

ISYTDS does go through shields.

Suffering a critical damage is what happens when a [kaboom] result is left after Compare Results. ISYTDS replaces what normally happens (lose a shield if you have any, else, deal a faceup card) with 'deal the crit from this card to the ship'.

That part's not at issue. Exactly how Maarek and ISYTDS interact, however, definitely is.

This brings up a good point - what if, in some weird scenario I can't picture off hand, a ships hull value = 0 while shields still remain on the ship. Does that mean the ship is still dead?

5 minutes ago, Daefish said:

This brings up a good point - what if, in some weird scenario I can't picture off hand, a ships hull value = 0 while shields still remain on the ship. Does that mean the ship is still dead?

Was curious about this myself and very possible if Kylo goes after a low hull ship repeatedly. The rules state that when a ships hull specifically is reduced to 0 it is destroyed, so an A-wing that got Kylo'd twice but still had two shields is indeed destroyed... guess he "Force fainted" the pilot or something and the ship crashed?

20 minutes ago, Calaith said:

Was curious about this myself and very possible if Kylo goes after a low hull ship repeatedly. The rules state that when a ships hull specifically is reduced to 0 it is destroyed, so an A-wing that got Kylo'd twice but still had two shields is indeed destroyed... guess he "Force fainted" the pilot or something and the ship crashed?

The ship is destroyed. Wampa has theoretically been doing this for some time, so it's not all that strange.

20 hours ago, Raven19528 said:

From what I've read, Kylo Ren would override Maarek's ability, always. Because the condition doesn't have a "may" clause anywhere, there is no choice in the matter.

On the other side of things, if you put any TIE Advanced with ATC into the mix, then Ren plus that would push those crits through shields. I like Vader with Juke or Lone Wolf, depending on playstyle. And Chirpy is fairly good at the crit generation himself too, so that's good in case Vader goes down too fast. On the flip side, Vader is a fantastic ace to be flying 1v1 against an enemy. He's not nearly as predictable as a defender either.

Kylo does not override anything. Maarek deals a crit, kylo trigger and fully resolve. Result from the attack is a faceup dmg card. Maarek trigger and replace by "draw 3 cards/chose 1". If he does 3 crits, the same thing happens 3 time since both abilities are not once per turn and nothing removed the faceup card from Ill show you the dark side. Unless theres an errata the rule as written is pretty clear.

As for Kylo vs shield, FFG already said that Kylo ability bypass shields.

35 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Kylo does not override anything. Basically Maarek says "if your attack would deal a face up dmg card, instead do XXX". Kylo says " if your attack does a crit instead deal that faceup dmg card". Maarek attack and does a crit wich would deal a faceup dmg card because of Kylo. His ability trigers and replace that with something else. If he does 3 crits, they all bypass shields and he draws 3 cards/chose 1 for each crit. Unless theres an errata the rule as written is pretty clear...

FFG already said that Kylo ability bypass shields, no argument there.

Okay, so I'm going to rules lawyer you for a moment here, though this will likely be FAQ'd for clarity.

· I'll Show You the Dark Side
When this card is assigned, if it is not already in play, the player who dealt it searches the Damage deck for 1 Damage card with the Pilot trait and may place it faceup on this card. Then shuffle the damage deck.

When you suffer critical damage from an attack, you are instead dealt the chosen faceup Damage card.

When there is no Damage card on this card, remove it.

Maarek ability: When your attack deals a faceup Damage card to the defender, instead draw 3 Damage cards, choose 1 to deal, and discard the others.

I've made bold the parts I'm talking about for clarity. The part that allows Kylo to go through shields is right there (when you suffer a critical damage...). However, this condition now activates and changes the normal course of events for what happens when you suffer a critical damage. Therefore, it is the condition, not the attack (as identified in Maarek's ability) that is dealing the faceup damage card. Because of that, I would say that ISYTDS would override Maarek's ability, and not allow him to get 1 of 3 crit cards through shields as stated.

It's a nuance in how things happen and what causes what, but I believe this would be the intended interaction of these two.

what about Lt. Colzet Wampa and ren?

You aren't suffering a critical damage at any point. Wampa deals a facedown damage card, and Colzet turns it over and resolves it. It may be a good way to get two damage under shields in a turn (using Ren on a ship that Colzet attacks with an ATC), but as far as activating the condition, that's not going to happen.

It is the attack that causes the face up card. The condition changes what normally happens with the attack result. It is not adding a result after an attack like vader crew, it changes what the attack does, like adv homing missiles, and it is very different than wampa, since wampa cancels results to deal a face down card. STDS changes the crit to do something else.

19 hours ago, Thormind said:

Kylo does not override anything. Maarek deals a crit, kylo trigger and fully resolve. Result from the attack is a faceup dmg card. Maarek trigger and replace by "draw 3 cards/chose 1". If he does 3 crits, the same thing happens 3 time since both abilities are not once per turn and nothing removed the faceup card from Ill show you the dark side. Unless theres an errata the rule as written is pretty clear.

As for Kylo vs shield, FFG already said that Kylo ability bypass shields.

I'd recommend not coming on so strong with a new account. Don't want to get known for being wrong so early in your career, you know?

ISYTDS & Maarek definitely do not work, unless FFG changes the way the cards interact via an FAQ update (which wouldn't be the first time). The condition is giving out the face up damage card, not Maarek. Unfortunately.

6 hours ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

I'd recommend not coming on so strong with a new account. Don't want to get known for being wrong so early in your career, you know?

ISYTDS & Maarek definitely do not work, unless FFG changes the way the cards interact via an FAQ update (which wouldn't be the first time). The condition is giving out the face up damage card, not Maarek. Unfortunately.

I'd recommend not being so condescending. Don't wanna be known as an arrogant person, you know?

You are incorrect about what applies the face up card. See my post above. The wording on STDS is clear on what is applied. Though I do not doubt that an FAQ will be posted if the combo is overbearing on the meta.

On 2/3/2017 at 4:44 AM, Oberron said:

It is the attack that causes the face up card. The condition changes what normally happens with the attack result. It is not adding a result after an attack like vader crew, it changes what the attack does, like adv homing missiles, and it is very different than wampa, since wampa cancels results to deal a face down card. STDS changes the crit to do something else.

I'd say that cause and effect is incorrect in your assessment. You are saying the attack causes a face up damage card. The attack causes a critical damage. STDS makes it so that critical damage causes a faceup damage card to go through shields because it is applied directly (you are instead dealt the chosen faceup damage card). So, again, I would argue that the condition is what is causing the faceup damage card, but it specifies "the chosen faceup damage card" indicating that that's the card that will be applied. I would really be surprised if they rule that Maarek would override STDS in this scenario, but crazier things have happened (enter four attacks in a turn Bossk).

3 hours ago, Raven19528 said:

I'd say that cause and effect is incorrect in your assessment. You are saying the attack causes a face up damage card. The attack causes a critical damage. STDS makes it so that critical damage causes a faceup damage card to go through shields because it is applied directly (you are instead dealt the chosen faceup damage card). So, again, I would argue that the condition is what is causing the faceup damage card, but it specifies "the chosen faceup damage card" indicating that that's the card that will be applied. I would really be surprised if they rule that Maarek would override STDS in this scenario, but crazier things have happened (enter four attacks in a turn Bossk).

And to go back around in circles. The condition is changing what the crit does, it is still part of the attack. It is replacing the normal result of the attack, not to dissimilar to adv homing missiles, where it says if the attack hits deal a face up card and cancel all die results.

The cause is the crit damage and it's normal effect is changed to a face up damage card.

And a little off topic and pedantic but it is 3 shot bossk.

Surely we can simply agree to disagree on this one? Each time I read the cards I find myself agreeing with each interpretation at different times and it really does come down to individual interpretations on what was intended with the use of specific words. Ultimately until it's FAQ'd it'd come down to a coin toss if your opponent disagrees with you or a judge ruling at a tourney.

17 hours ago, Calaith said:

Surely we can simply agree to disagree on this one? Each time I read the cards I find myself agreeing with each interpretation at different times and it really does come down to individual interpretations on what was intended with the use of specific words. Ultimately until it's FAQ'd it'd come down to a coin toss if your opponent disagrees with you or a judge ruling at a tourney.

I think that's the best thing at this point. It is really specific, so it may be allowed, but it may not be as well. Time will tell.

23 hours ago, Oberron said:

And a little off topic and pedantic but it is 3 shot bossk.

I know that's what everyone has been talking about, but we had a guy in our local scene bring that with Snap Shot on it for giggles. It did end up being 4 shots in a turn, which was funny, and although Snap Shot didn't do much, it was still an additional attack.

On 2/4/2017 at 1:04 PM, Raven19528 said:

I'd say that cause and effect is incorrect in your assessment. You are saying the attack causes a face up damage card. The attack causes a critical damage. STDS makes it so that critical damage causes a faceup damage card to go through shields because it is applied directly (you are instead dealt the chosen faceup damage card). So, again, I would argue that the condition is what is causing the faceup damage card, but it specifies "the chosen faceup damage card" indicating that that's the card that will be applied. I would really be surprised if they rule that Maarek would override STDS in this scenario, but crazier things have happened (enter four attacks in a turn Bossk).

Here's where I disagree folks......Since you're clearly very articulate and able to concisely explain your opinion on the frustratingly subjective interpretation of these two card abilities interacting.

So, your position as i read it, is that ISYTDS (which is a game effect or upgrade card) is dealing the face up damage card, not Maarek's attack, therefore, Maarek's pilot ability does not apply...

My question.....is how is this situation any different than Maarek shooting an adv. Homing missile at a target with two hull and full shields? his attack happens, an un-cancelled crit (or hit) result is present in the compare dice results step....then an upgrade card, or game effect, instead deals a face up damage card to the opponent during the deal damage step....NOT Marrek's attack. Marrek's pilot ability then triggers "INSTEAD".

This has been an understood interaction for quite some time now....so how is this new interaction between two simultaneously triggering game effects any different?

On ‎2‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 8:29 AM, ArbitraryNerd said:

I'd recommend not coming on so strong with a new account. Don't want to get known for being wrong so early in your career, you know?

...and this here is why I stayed away from forums for such a long time. It's almost laughable that someone sitting behind a keyboard is trying to put another man in his place by telling him his interpretation or opinion of a rule isn't correct and he should basically stifle because he hasn't had a profile as long as him. Look at me, I have 975 posts, but you only have 35, lol.

7 hours ago, Darth Onyx said:

...and this here is why I stayed away from forums for such a long time. It's almost laughable that someone sitting behind a keyboard is trying to put another man in his place by telling him his interpretation or opinion of a rule isn't correct and he should basically stifle because he hasn't had a profile as long as him. Look at me, I have 975 posts, but you only have 35, lol.

*Shrug* I've seen plenty of new users who do nothing but troll, or demand that their rule interpretations are correct, despite them not having anywhere near as much experience with the game as other users.

Of course, post count isn't a direct flag for experience, but sometimes it is.

Additionally, didn't tell anyone to stifle, there are ways to frame a response that aren't confrontational. Clearly I'm capable of doing both, so I assume others are as well.

EDIT: Totally admit my post was a bit on the cringey side, though. I must have been in a mood.

21 hours ago, Tb0ned said:

Here's where I disagree folks......Since you're clearly very articulate and able to concisely explain your opinion on the frustratingly subjective interpretation of these two card abilities interacting.

So, your position as i read it, is that ISYTDS (which is a game effect or upgrade card) is dealing the face up damage card, not Maarek's attack, therefore, Maarek's pilot ability does not apply...

My question.....is how is this situation any different than Maarek shooting an adv. Homing missile at a target with two hull and full shields? his attack happens, an un-cancelled crit (or hit) result is present in the compare dice results step....then an upgrade card, or game effect, instead deals a face up damage card to the opponent during the deal damage step....NOT Marrek's attack. Marrek's pilot ability then triggers "INSTEAD".

This has been an understood interaction for quite some time now....so how is this new interaction between two simultaneously triggering game effects any different?

Okay, but the Advanced Homing Missile is an attack. It says right on the card, Attack (Target Lock):... . So Maarek's attack IS causing the faceup Damage card. Which is why his ability would activate. With Kylo, Maarek's attack could cause a critical damage, but unless that damage is going to hit hull, Maarek can't activate his ability until Kylo activates.

I'm going to refer to the Maarek/Leebo interaction here. Maarek activates first, then Leebo. If abilities affecting damage follow the same flow (no reason to think they wouldn't) then a critical hit starts moving through, with shields up, Maarek's ability wouldn't activate. Then STDS, because it's an effect on the defender, would activate and cause the chosen damage card to be applied to the attack. However in this version of the ruling, if the crit was hitting hull, Maarek's ability could activate, and then end up discarding those three cards as STDS would override. Which would really suck.

However they end up doing ruling on this, there are going to be a ton of things they have to verify before having people fly.