So in discussion on anther post about snap shot (can you change or not change the red dice) a realization has came to me over green dice and what is now a more common trend with X-wing. So in the rules it states where you cannot chose not not roll dice when defending from an attack but with secondary weapons like TLTs and combinations ike juke snapshot, there are scenarios where rolling green dice just doesn't matter. If you got 2 and TLT has 2 hit and a crit you are going to take a damage no matter what you roll.

I'm sure balance wise it is fine, but I am concern about the gameplay aspects of it. If players find themselves where the odds have moved from say 99 to 1 to just plain 0 it will be off putting to many players. Given studies into gambling and lotto I am sure people are more accepting of a very slim chance than they are of literally No chance. And with more and more ships, upgrades, and pilot ability I am starting to see more combinations where you literally can give your opponent No chance dice rolls. So why bother to roll dice?

I don't care about ACE Wing... no mores.

At least with TLT shots you don't know if you are going to need to roll green dice until after the reds are rolled. I'm fine with that because the only reason you aren't rolling greens is because the outcome is already certain no matter the roll.

On the other side though, there are more than enough scenarios in the game between /x7, Palpatine, c3P0, Latts Razzi, R5-P9, autothrusters, and token stacks in general where you literally (and I literally mean literally) are wasting your time to roll 2 attack dice. Reds doing "auto" damage means the game is at least moving. Reds doing "auto no damage" means the game is stagnant unless you bring x amount of fire power. Now that, in my opinion, is where the issue lies.

Seems like 2 red attack ships are a dyeing, no wait a dead breed in the current power creep in x-wing. It is also sad that a tokened up ship like Fel with 5 green dice can be 1 shotted with the current state of affairs.

If I understand the complaint, it's that a ship with 2 green dice will be taking a single point of damage from a TLT attack of "hit,hit,crit" yet the defender is forced to roll defense dice. I think there's very few situations where that applies and in practice those rolls get skipped. I think what is important from a rules perspective is that a player can't just opt out of rolling those dice and skip the steps and possibly associated triggers.

Also low agility high hp ships seem to have as short a life span as a doughnut in the room with Jabba the Hutt.

it's a dumb rule I'm sure the majority of people ignore for the sake of cost cutting time (I know we do, locally)

just don't forget stuff like lightened frame or w.e

as for some rolls just being impossible to dodge, this is a good thing. There's more than enough variance as is that sometimes takes the edge off of what is supposed to be a tactical miniatures game

I'm saying right now there are set ups where literally rolling dice doesn't matter. You can have attackers where the defender gets to modify red dice to hits/crits and modify the defender's green dice to no token focus. Which removes the dice from X-wing. Say what you want about the random nature and I agree too much randomness can ruing a game (look no further than Hearthstone) but I believe people are far more accepting of a scenario where they have to roll 5 evades to not die other than their dice is modified to let the last hit through no matter what.

So do you think a dice don't matter meta is good for the game?

it's great for the game, because you get your plays to matter more than your dice. If people wanted to not die, they would then be able to avoid said fate by actually doing things instead of praying to rngesus far beyond their control

this is preferable to having the dice completely **** over your plays, and consequentially all the effort and involvement you put into the game

only time it is a problem is with PWTs, because then your plays AND your dice don't matter

3 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

If I understand the complaint, it's that a ship with 2 green dice will be taking a single point of damage from a TLT attack of "hit,hit,crit" yet the defender is forced to roll defense dice. I think there's very few situations where that applies and in practice those rolls get skipped. I think what is important from a rules perspective is that a player can't just opt out of rolling those dice and skip the steps and possibly associated triggers.

Yeah but there is another scenario. greensquadron snap/juke with Nora and G-droid. green squadron gets to reroll 2 dice and you are in a Y-wing. Well you haven't been able to take your focus token and you are in arc of A-wing (bumping even) so take 2 damage and if you roll an evade it is a token less focus. Here we have a near dice free scenario. At least for the Defender dice doesn't matter, for attacker there still can be 3 blanks in a row.

7 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Yeah but there is another scenario. greensquadron snap/juke with Nora and G-droid. green squadron gets to reroll 2 dice and you are in a Y-wing. Well you haven't been able to take your focus token and you are in arc of A-wing (bumping even) so take 2 damage and if you roll an evade it is a token less focus. Here we have a near dice free scenario. At least for the Defender dice doesn't matter, for attacker there still can be 3 blanks in a row.

Actually the Green Squadron Pilot with juke and snap shot can only reroll 1 of the 2 dice thanks to M9-G8. And if your Y-Wing is a PS2 then this isn't even that big an issue because you move before the A-Wing and can decide not to fly into range 1 and in arc of the A-Wing. Even if you happen to be running a higher PS Y-Wing pilot, you already know that your opponent's strategy will be to try to set it up so that you land at range 1 in his arc so you can try to counteract that by not flying where your opponent expects you to. It's a very maneuver-dependent upgrade.

Edit: Besides, I thought that the general consensus was that we wanted 2-attack dice ships to make a comeback.

5 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Yeah but there is another scenario. greensquadron snap/juke with Nora and G-droid. green squadron gets to reroll 2 dice and you are in a Y-wing. Well you haven't been able to take your focus token and you are in arc of A-wing (bumping even) so take 2 damage and if you roll an evade it is a token less focus. Here we have a near dice free scenario. At least for the Defender dice doesn't matter, for attacker there still can be 3 blanks in a row.

Any of the "if attack hits, cancel results and do a thing" attacks would also create the same situation when they have more hits that is possible to cancel. This has been a thing since Wave 1 though (Ion Turret). There are just more combinations where it can happen now.

I see that you mentioned Juke, and Snapshot on an A-wing and being able to attack with Snapshot in the event of a bump. I think the only way that that could happen is if the bumping ship had Zeb crew.

For the record, Snap Shot still follows regular rules of firing. If he bumps you, you cant shoot him w/o Zeb crew (The only Awing that can anyway doesnt have an innate EPT so he wouldnt have Snap and Juke)

36 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Yeah but there is another scenario. greensquadron snap/juke with Nora and G-droid. green squadron gets to reroll 2 dice and you are in a Y-wing. Well you haven't been able to take your focus token and you are in arc of A-wing (bumping even) so take 2 damage and if you roll an evade it is a token less focus. Here we have a near dice free scenario. At least for the Defender dice doesn't matter, for attacker there still can be 3 blanks in a row.

It's not like this is anything new, though. Even back in Wave 1 all the opponent needed to do was line Wedge up to make it an absolutely dice-free scenario from the poor Y-wing's point of view.

And also any ship with 0 agility (and most 1 agi ships) can skip rolling defense dice when defending against an special effect weapon with more then one hit.

This isn't new.

Also: Imho if you get yourself and your opponent into a position where he basicly can skip rolling defense dice it's in fact your earning for outmanouvering him.

Warning, this is a bunny trail off the well trodden path. Shouldn't TLT's cost something like the cost of a basic TIE, like 14? or should they be Unique? Honestly, I have yet to remember a fellow who I enjoyed seeing them first play against a list with them who didn't wonder out loud, "how the **** FFG thought that was a balanced card?" .....especially spammed on cheap Y-Wings.

Sorry, now back to the thread.......'these are not the words you were looking for, move along.'

Where's my tea?

Zeb don't do nothing for snap shot. He only works "during the combat phase" and only when a ship activates for its normal attack. He really should be a zero cost upgrade and still wouldn't see much play then.

So far as the A-wing Vs. Y-wing situation listed: Y-wing player can usually avoid range 1 of the A-wing easily enough. Or better yet, equip an Autoblaster Turret. Autoblaster is the ultimate in anti-dice tech. It doesn't seem to get all that much hate.

13 hours ago, WWHSD said:

I see that you mentioned Juke, and Snapshot on an A-wing and being able to attack with Snapshot in the event of a bump. I think the only way that that could happen is if the bumping ship had Zeb crew.

Arvel Crynyd

Without juke thought.

Autoblaster, if all hits, no need to roll agility dice, just accept it. Luckily no one uses these.

However, TLT in my area has a funny set of events.

TLT player declares TLT use and target, regardless of agility value of the defender, they place their hand over either the pilot card (to remove shields) or over the damage deck in preparation.

The TLT player proceeds to roll dice and call the number of hits or simply just says either:

"Take a damage."

"Nothing."

Only time this changes is if the TLT player only manages a single hit, then its proceeded with "Oh, I can evade that!" (blank) "Sign. . . "

14 hours ago, Marinealver said:

I am starting to see more combinations where you literally can give your opponent No chance dice rolls. So why bother to roll dice?

This is it folks! The End Times have come to X-Wing!

The good news is, FFG have moved their X-Wing design and production facilities to Hosnian Prime. That's got to be good news right?

Right?

Oh nuts! I guess I'll just pack my bags and find a new hobby interest.

55 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:

"Oh, I can evade that!"

That was the problem with high PS TIE Interceptors before TLT.

a 1-hull X-Wing (without Integrated Astromech) facing a three-hit roll from a range-1 TIE Fighter doesn't really need to roll defense dice. this "problem" has existed since the original core set.

1 minute ago, skotothalamos said:

a 1-hull X-Wing (without Integrated Astromech) facing a three-hit roll from a range-1 TIE Fighter doesn't really need to roll defense dice. this "problem" has existed since the original core set.

That's a bad example. Unless that 1 hull X-Wing is the last ship on the table, it does matter how many evades he rolls because it affects the number of damage cards that are dealt which will change which crits come up later.

1 hour ago, WWHSD said:

That's a bad example. Unless that 1 hull X-Wing is the last ship on the table, it does matter how many evades he rolls because it affects the number of damage cards that are dealt which will change which crits come up later.

The core set came with one X-Wing.

Given the option of dice matter most or flying matters most... I will take the latter.

I will admit that I think 2 dice ships need some options. Some have them and others don't.