11 minutes ago, Myrion said:

I like the idea of starting with Emperor Hentai I.

The Empire under Hentai I would be... different from what we've seen, that's right.

Personally, I would rather have a reboot of the story. Begin with the Day of Thunder era and move forward, keeping the "good" events along the way, and discarding the weird/wrong that the story went through.

10 minutes ago, Ser Nakata said:

The Empire under Hentai I would be... different from what we've seen, that's right.

Personally, I would rather have a reboot of the story. Begin with the Day of Thunder era and move forward, keeping the "good" events along the way, and discarding the weird/wrong that the story went through.

The empire of Hentai I must probably teaches the sword techniques to make people's clothes explode without doing any damage to their bodies beyond minor scratches. And probably the power to summon tentacles out of the ether at higher levels.

When you say "Day of Thunder" era... do you mean the one where Miya comes back to the empire to tell everyone, or the one where Kachiko does?

13 hours ago, Ser Nakata said:

The Empire under Hentai I would be... different from what we've seen, that's right.

Personally, I would rather have a reboot of the story. Begin with the Day of Thunder era and move forward, keeping the "good" events along the way, and discarding the weird/wrong that the story went through.

I have to agree. My number one issues with L5R card game was that it let the players decide to much of the story. I know that was the charm of the game, but lets face it players are not always the best storytellers.

What was worse is this filtered down into the RPG. That would have been fine if the RPGers had some input, but no some guys/girls playing a CCG controlled the story for us.

I myself would take a page out of John Wicks book (7th Sea) and reboot the whole thing from the scorpion clan coup or just prior.

Plus the writes at FFG have an whole world to expand to

Gaijin lands

Burning Sand

Ivory Kingdom

17 hours ago, Myrion said:

I like the idea of starting with Emperor Hentai I.

Me too :perv:

22 hours ago, Myrion said:

I like the idea of starting with Emperor Hentai I.

LOL you think taking away spider would be controversial? no mantis, no scorpion ninjas (shosuro's student's don't start the family till after the day of thunder), no shadowlands (day of thunder is 3 years before Hantei died, so i guess you could have some shadowlands right at the end), no monks (the tao was written as a conversation between Hantei and Shinsei but the monk orders didn't exist till later).

so you've removed two of the most popular clans, and if you want to add the shadowlands back in, you have to remove the unicorn. you've removed a major component of the scorpion and the dragon and phoenix, while also taking one of the unaligned's major decks away.

and thats just off the top of my head. i'm sure i missed things. and in return you get what? i guess a chance to play with the kami again? a clean slate? the chance to throw away 20 years of story right after you've spent what i imagine was a pretty good chunk of change on it?

i've said it before and i'll say it again: anyone hoping for a drastic reboot of storyline is setting themselves up for disappointment. i can see picking a new direction forward rather than doing onyx, i can even see a small reboot to move away from the colonial era, but the people who bought this game are a) smart and b) fans. if they were gonna throw away the story they coulda make their own samurai lcg. l5r's ccg mechanics are not so profoundly amazing that they HAD to be bought. l5r's value is, and always has been, in the storyline and the community. they bought that story, they aren't gonna burn it to the ground.

Cielago, you missed the point completely. I have no strong feelings one way or another towards a possible reboot.

I was simply amused by a typo

As others noted, the techniques taught in Emperor Hentai's empire would be very different, as would the threat from the Shadowlands.

23 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

The empire of Hentai I must probably teaches the sword techniques to make people's clothes explode without doing any damage to their bodies beyond minor scratches. And probably the power to summon tentacles out of the ether at higher levels.

When you say "Day of Thunder" era... do you mean the one where Miya comes back to the empire to tell everyone, or the one where Kachiko does?

I mean the Day of Thunder with Toturi, Hoturi, Kachiko, Kamoko, Yakamo, Hitomi, and Tadaka joining the reincarnation of Shinsei and Togashi against Hantei 39th possessed by Fu-Leng. The Second Day of Thunder, but the first to be depicted in the CCG.

So yeah, I would like FFG to reboot from the reign of Hantei XXXVIII and begin the Story with the Scorpion Clan Coup.

Now, maybe I must add that I've always been a Mantis player at heart. Of course, I would like to have the Mantis be present in the LCG, but I can wait a bit. I have nothing about waiting for a 6-chapters cycle before playing Mantis again. I've dabbled with Unicorn in Emperor and Ivory Edition, and was planning on hanging around the Naga in Onyx when I heard the Mantis would get the shaft.

Over the years, I've seen factions come and go. Some I was happy to see leave (Spirits and Ninja are good examples), some less (I really like the Nezumi) and I could accept it being this way with the LCG.

On 2/10/2017 at 6:16 PM, TheHobgoblyn said:

For all we know, there won't be clans at all! For all we know, the entire game will be based on which featured personality you choose and most "personality" cards won't have any clan allegiance at all, they will just represent generic samurai. For all we know, the game will be entirely reinvented to take place in the American Civil War. For all we know, the release of the game is contingent on finding life on Mars.

We can play this game all day! Writing "for all we know" followed by the most stupid, outrageous, baseless conjecture that has every reason in the world to NOT be true and no reason for it to be true.

I didn't "forget" Fu Leng is dead, I just choose to ignore it-- because it is stupid nonsense and even if not properly retconned along with the rest of the stupid nonsense, even dead he still has exactly the same degree of influence on the Spider Clan as any other Kami has on any other clan-- because they are ALL dead and NONE of them communicate with mortals, meaning-- at best this whole idea of the kami would just be the samurai following their example.... which would still be true, the Spider Clan is still following Fu Leng's example.

When I say "Imperials", I, like anyone with the slightest bit of sense, mean the Otomo, the Seppun and the Miya-- i.e. Hantei's "Great Clan" if you would, the descendants of his primary set of followers that carry their names.. Also, the families that 99.5% of those who were descended from Hantei himself are in as the "Hantei" family only ever had the person on the throne and their current children--- all the other kids that all the other Hantei had with all their concubines joined the three families called "Imperials".

And you know what? After Hantei fell... the throne has been occupied by a Lion, a Phoenix, a Dragon and apparently now a Spider-- you know what is consistent through it all? Whomever sits on the throne, the actual day-to-day business of actually keeping the empire in one piece, balanced, seeing that imperial law and edict actually gets around to the various courts, overseeing the judicial system, handling minor interclan personal disputes before they erupt into warfare, driving wedges between alliances when the clans get too cozy with one another, seeing that taxes are collected from all the provinces and delivered to the capital and that imperial aid is given where it is needed... i.e. actually RUNNING the empire as opposed to just sitting on an elaborate chair and making commands based on whatever wild whim pops into their head.... that has always been done by the same families. They have not been "recently returned" anywhere, they never left.

And as for why it is important to include what is probably the most popular and necessary faction in the whole game for the players to sensibly be pit against one another? Why its important that the only actual antagonist faction in a faction-based war game is available for play?....

Is that seriously a question you are putting out there? Like, you really can't figure that out on your own and need it spelled out?

I don't think it has to be "Spider Clan", but some sort of "Shadowlands" faction is an absolute must. And if you just sit down for a few hours and reflect on the question for a while, I really hope you are clever enough to figure out why it is so necessary. (Hint: This is not a PvM MMORPG, this is a player vs. player card game.... and this time we aren't launching with one of the 7 original clans as the main villain who just murdered the emperor.)

Sure, except the Kami playing a role is something that is actually likely, and has happened in the past until getting rid of all of the clans.

You don't think Kami can communicate with people? And I do enjoy your mental gymnastics about the Hantei family.

I agree, players should get Spider/Imperial decks sooner or later - but I can also see how it makes perfect sense to wait 6 months and include them in a big expansion.

mmmmmmm the Spider weren't one of the orignal clans.

On 2/10/2017 at 10:24 PM, Sparks Duh said:

I guess I don't really understand why anyone thinks ANY clan should be left out. Why couldn't all 9 clans be in the game?

At this point, I truly believe people keep saying such and such clan or clans will be gone because bias. There really is no other reason why people think this.

Mainly from a card count stance. Supporting 9 factions in the starter is a lot of cards or a lot less faction specific cards. An easy answer is to include the original clans in the starter and introduce the other two later with the big expansions FFG does with their own LCG. Similar to how Smugglers and Bounty Hunters were introduced to the Star Wars LCG.

On 2/12/2017 at 2:56 AM, Myrion said:

I like the idea of starting with Emperor Hentai I.

Haven't they said they will pick up where AEG left off with the story?

And where the story was left off was basically a reboot anyway - the bad guys won and took over, 4 clans lost their champions, the Dragon are sealed away etc....

5 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

Haven't they said they will pick up where AEG left off with the story?

And where the story was left off was basically a reboot anyway - the bad guys won and took over, 4 clans lost their champions, the Dragon are sealed away etc....

theres a mention of the colonies on the product page:

Quote

Although we plan for the LCG version of Legend of the Five Rings to have significant gameplay differences, it is fully our intention to maintain the spiritual resonance and emotional impact that’s so inherent to this setting. Legend of the Five Rings features a stunningly realized universe that sets it apart from every other card game. Throughout the development of the LCG, our developers will ensure that the game maintains its connection to Rokugan and the Colonies, as well as the game’s pervasive themes of honor, nobility, magic, intrigue, duty, and warfare. Finally, the Legend of the Five Rings LCG will receive full Organized Play support, beginning with an introductory tournament at Gen Con Indy 2017!

but beyond that, they haven't said exactly to what degree the story will be maintain. Occam's razor would suggest, if the colonies remain, that they're going continue preserve the existing story but perhaps not be beholden to what AEG had planned, but lord knows logic and reason were never the dominant factors in this communities speculation methodology.

18 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

Sure, except the Kami playing a role is something that is actually likely, and has happened in the past until getting rid of all of the clans.

You don't think Kami can communicate with people? And I do enjoy your mental gymnastics about the Hantei family.

I agree, players should get Spider/Imperial decks sooner or later - but I can also see how it makes perfect sense to wait 6 months and include them in a big expansion.

mmmmmmm the Spider weren't one of the orignal clans.

The only one doing mental gymnastics is you.

The Kami-- as in the actual kami and not their far off descendants who happen to bear their name as a family name-- have had virtually no influence in the story.

Fu Leng was the first major villain. They needed their 7 rainbow Power Rangers to beat him! Go Lion Yellow Ranger! And Blue Crane Ranger! And Other Blue Crab Ranger! And Red Scorpion Ranger! And Purple Unicorn Ranger! And Green Dragon Ranger! And Orange Phoenix Ranger! and they all joined up and transformed using their rainbow power crystals and used their combined powers defeating Champion of Jigoku! And when Fu Leng tried to summon his giant Oni, they all called their Zords which combined into the Super Mega Rokugan Zord and slashed it saving the world from 1000 years of darkness and ensuring 1000 years of peace except totally not because that would make a boring story.... Actually, I am not sure about the power zord part, but otherwise that is about right. Oh, and unlike the first Day of Thunder, they all survived and came back home... and virtually all turned evil eventually.

Togashi turned out to be hopping from body to body down the line of his most direct descendants, was killed shortly after being found out. So.. sort of a minor villain there.

Akodo apparently... lost relevance and power because an emperor banned people from using his family name (although apparently Hantei loses power and Fu Leng gains power if anyone carries the Hantei name)... but then after the Shadow got named after him, all the ninja became Akodo and started acting exactly like the Akodo who were around before they were stripped of the name for... no real particular reason. Come to think of it, Akodo himself took exactly 0 action in all of this and so it doesn't even belong on this list. Forget it.

Ryoshun appeared out of the spirit gate and was like "Hey! I am so totally a Kami no one ever heard of before!!... No, really! Shinsei told Hantei about me long ago. Anyway, here is some help against the shadow and oh!! oops.. I'm dead again. Protect my grave!... or don't... or have a minor clan no one cares about do it. OoooooooOOOoo.. I is a ghost!!"

Shinjo turned up for what... umm.. "oh, no! my descendants almost all have ties to a foreign assassin guild! Better kill them all off and give complete control of my clan to the more distinct and popular Moto!" then she... wandered off and died or something? I think next we heard from her was when Fu Leng invaded the heavens.

Otherwise.... well, they all made cameo appearances in those couple stories where Fu Leng invaded the heavens. And even there they didn't do much. He kicked Ryoshun's butt... and beat down Shinjo, I think sending her to go be reincarnated once again (I don't even know if that story went anywhere) and.. I don't even recall if any of the 'invade the heavens' stories even did feature anyone else beyond a cameo.

And... that was about it. Their appearances in the story have been very few, very far between, never at the same time and always for the shortest of windows in which they accomplished virtually nothing. Fu Leng was the ONLY one who actually actively did stuff consistently. Even though Togashi was about and had lived on through stealing and devouring his descendants souls and possessing their bodies... the dragon clan was basically entirely reclusive and he just sat in a dark room moping all the time until he needed to fight something.

I really don't think Shiba, Doji, Bayushi, or Hida have actually even had appearances where they actively do anything of consequence. Maybe they got name-dropped in connection with certain ancient mythical artifacts, but actually acting? No. Certainly they have never been central to any storyline ever.

The Kami really have never, EVER had an active, ongoing, present role. Most DEFINITELY not at the same time. Other than Togashi and Shinjo, they have never communicated with their clans, and most of those twos dealings with their own clan have been nearly wholly negative. They don't even particularly define their clans- especially in the case of Doji, Shinjo and Shiba whose clans are far more defined by the Daidoji & Kakita, the Moto and the Isawa respectively.

Other than those few instances here and maybe a couple others someone could point out, the Kami have always been treated as mythical backstory that might go some way towards explaining the personalities and attitudes of the clans at the start of Clan Wars, but the longer the actual history of the game became, the less and less relevance they actually had as the clans were defined primarily by everything that happened AFTER clan wars. You know... they had actual events and character development to define them rather than just being pretty blank slates with just a few loose ideas defining them. And, by that, what I mean is that even events that happened in the timeline before Clan Wars were decided later in development of the world and simply placed in the background in order to justify what things they were currently doing.

The Kami just do not, nor ever have, interacted with the world nor their clans in any way remotely resembling what you are insisting is the only possible way the upcoming game could work... despite it never being the way the game has EVER worked.

None of us knows how many cards are going to be printed in the initial set. Although, granted, at only $39.99-- supposing that really is the price 6 months from now, it does seem like 9 factions is way too many to be expected to drop. In fact, 7 factions is too many. It might really get boiled down to only 4 for such a price. And the more factions there are in the game, I am sure there will be far fewer individual faction cards and a lot more neutral cards.

But having a Kami is not going to be the deciding factor. Nor are Kamis going to be the primary driving mechanic of factions because they know before they even begin designing that they want to implement factions that don't have one soon enough.

What is going to be the deciding factor is the complication of the rules the faction is going to be based on.

For Mantis, they are going to have to decide how Ranged Attacks work and how the concept of naval combat works.

For Shadowlands, the fact that things are tainted... its got to mean SOMETHING. So before implementing them, they have to figure out how taint is going to affect the game and how to implement a faction that doesn't necessarily have to play by the same rules as the others.

For Unicorn, it is imperative to figure out exactly how mounted combat is going to work in the game. If the play space looks far different than in previous editions, then cavalry can't work exactly the same. (Honestly, I see a good argument that in L5R, the cavalry and naval effects were backwards from what they should have been.)

For Phoenix, far more so than any other faction, one has to decide how "spells" work in the game and how they differ from other abilities. Maybe the idea of paying for spells and attaching them like items before using them and having kihos that one plays straight out... that could entirely be reworked and restructured. While every faction has shugenja, you can get away with making every other one without putting their shugenja in during the first set.

For Dragon, one has to decide how monks work, particularly tattooed monks, and how exactly they differ from shugenja. You have to decide if "enlightenment victory" is going to at all be a thing and how one goes about obtaining it.

For Scorpion, one has to decide how ninja work and what mechanics are going to be core to ninja being well.. ninja as opposed to anything else. Do they have mystical abilities or items? If so, are they different from shugenja or monk abilities? Also, is Dishonor victory going to be a thing? How powerful should it be? How can we properly balance it so that it can be effective at all against "honor victory" clans and clans that are not trying to get a victory via honor at all.

For Crane, obviously one has to decide how dueling is going to work and if it is going to be as big, complicated and central of a thing to the game as it was in the old L5R. Maybe it can be greatly simplified, be used more appropriately and have a consistently more sensible effect on the game rather than seeming like it is out-of-battle assassination for which someone gains honor. Of course, that is assuming that "gaining honor" and "honor victory" are even a thing.

But, you know what? Lion and Crab, at least in their most basic form, are really easy to create and implement. You have an army that comes out of the gate fast with some good offensive power, but is kind of capped as just how good they can get... and a clan that comes out slowly and has really good defensive power and can build up their army to being far more powerful over time. Sure, have had more complicated deck types and mechanics in the past, but for a brand new base set? Why not bring them back to their most basic and simple form and add complication later.

So Lion and Crab are the only factions I would think one could be pretty certain will get featured in the new base set. Crane and Scorpion would be the next most likely as I imagine one would want to implement the honor/dishonor victory concept as soon as possible. And then finally I think Dragon is the next most likely because it works well as a "second best at everything" even if you skip the monks initially, and that 3rd "enlightenment" victory is probably something that ought to be introduced as soon as possible.

Phoenix, Unicorn, Mantis, Shadowlands/Spider.. those are more likely to be released later because each of them has a very modular mechanic that is generally utilized only marginally by other clans (shugenja and cavalry do appear occassionally with other clans, but are not absolutely essential) or aren't utilized by other clans (naval) or are highly discouraged from being utilized by other clans but can be (shadowlands taint).

It has nothing to do with Kami, it has everything to do with whether the faction's key concepts are things that are pretty universally utilized by all clans-- or are mechanics that it would be best to tackle later in the design process as things you can "add on" to the game after you have the base game working.

I think there has clearly been an evolution in how FFG design their LCGs, and that is noticeable in the upwards quality curve of their environments upon release. Game of Thrones 2.0 released with eight factions at that price point and was playable with 'just' the core set - there was definitely a faction head and shoulders above the others, but the other seven were relatively close in balance.

To achieve this balance, there was an element of thematic sacrifice - decks could be built using a second faction, although only non-loyal characters and cards from that second faction were available to be used. Still, it stuck in some people's craws to have, say, Stark forces fighting on behalf of the Lannisters.

I think, and this is absolutely speculation, that L5R 2.0 will employ a similar method, and that will also offend some, but if the game is balanced, I'm okay with it. I don't think they'll go with more than six playable factions to begin with, because traditionally L5R has used more 'neutral' cards than other LCGS, and I see them being a larger percentage of the card base than in other games.

I'm not applying any sort of qualifier or ultimatum to what those six factions should be. I just want to see how well the game plays and how well it represents the story and spirit that has meant to much to us. If my particular faction isn't in there, I'll get over it.

1 hour ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

But, you know what? Lion and Crab, at least in their most basic form, are really easy to create and implement. You have an army that comes out of the gate fast with some good offensive power, but is kind of capped as just how good they can get... and a clan that comes out slowly and has really good defensive power and can build up their army to being far more powerful over time. Sure, have had more complicated deck types and mechanics in the past, but for a brand new base set? Why not bring them back to their most basic and simple form and add complication later.

So Lion and Crab are the only factions I would think one could be pretty certain will get featured in the new base set. Crane and Scorpion would be the next most likely as I imagine one would want to implement the honor/dishonor victory concept as soon as possible. And then finally I think Dragon is the next most likely because it works well as a "second best at everything" even if you skip the monks initially, and that 3rd "enlightenment" victory is probably something that ought to be introduced as soon as possible.

Phoenix, Unicorn, Mantis, Shadowlands/Spider.. those are more likely to be released later because each of them has a very modular mechanic that is generally utilized only marginally by other clans (shugenja and cavalry do appear occassionally with other clans, but are not absolutely essential) or aren't utilized by other clans (naval) or are highly discouraged from being utilized by other clans but can be (shadowlands taint).

It has nothing to do with Kami, it has everything to do with whether the faction's key concepts are things that are pretty universally utilized by all clans-- or are mechanics that it would be best to tackle later in the design process as things you can "add on" to the game after you have the base game working.

this is the most succinct argument i've heard yet for there being a smaller group of clans in the starter. design driven decision based on establishing core mechanics, followed by more niche mechanics. that makes sense. doesn't necessarily mean its sure to happen, but if it does i can see this being why. the only addendum i'd make to it, and i'll freely grant that its hard for me to separate my intense partisanship from actual good sense here, is that i could see the inclusion of a "villain" faction for thematic reasons, even if mechanically its somewhat more complex than "core", per the definition above.

@thehobgoblyn If you don't think the Kami can communicate with people, you shouldn't be trying to insult people about their knowledge of the setting. And you do know that one of the kami is currently reincarnated and leading a clan right? I think that is SOME measure of influence. I also showed you several ways the Kami have been included in the same - as personalities and as Guidence cards - so your whole position that they can't/won't be included in the LCG because they have never influenced the game is completely invalid. The thought that FFG may simply cut down on the number of clans in the starter is 100% valid, and one way they could draw the line/seperate the Spider and Mantis (the two obvious choices to introduce later) is to draw on those clans lack of a direction connection to Kami. Moving on.

Togoshi wasn't body hoping. Seriously, you need read some fictions.

11 minutes ago, cielago said:

this is the most succinct argument i've heard yet for there being a smaller group of clans in the starter. design driven decision based on establishing core mechanics, followed by more niche mechanics. that makes sense. doesn't necessarily mean its sure to happen, but if it does i can see this being why. the only addendum i'd make to it, and i'll freely grant that its hard for me to separate my intense partisanship from actual good sense here, is that i could see the inclusion of a "villain" faction for thematic reasons, even if mechanically its somewhat more complex than "core", per the definition above.

You don't need a villain faction right off the bat. Its not like all the clans are always united against an enemy. Clan vs Clan is perfectly fine. I do agree villain factions will be introduced at some point (and could be in the starter) but its not like Star Wars where you need the Sith or Imperials for the heroes to fight. Its more like GoT, each family standing on its own is perfectly fine.

There is also basic marketing. If you give everyone everything right off the bat, a certain % of the people won't buy things later, or will buy less/fewer things later. Being able to come out 6 months after launch and announce "The Spider are coming" or "The Mantis have arrived" is a big marketing, getting the fan base excited move.

Yes people wll be excited. They're waiting two years, so what's the problem waiting another two for their deluxe.

4 minutes ago, kempy said:

Yes people wll be excited. They're waiting two years, so what's the problem waiting another two for their deluxe.

well It won't be 2 years. They release big expansions every 6 months or so right?

17 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

well It won't be 2 years. They release big expansions every 6 months or so right?

less i think. i don't recall the exact intervals, but the new Arkham Horror LCG started dropping previews for the packs RIGHT away. i mean, i felt like it was a month, MAX, after the core set dropped that they were talking up expansion. maybe thats nonstandard.

2 minutes ago, cielago said:

less i think. i don't recall the exact intervals, but the new Arkham Horror LCG started dropping previews for the packs RIGHT away. i mean, i felt like it was a month, MAX, after the core set dropped that they were talking up expansion. maybe thats nonstandard.

if we go by Game of Thrones, which was released in Oct 2015 - 16 months ago.

They've released 2 Deluxe Expansions with a 3rd coming between April - June - Lets assume June. That will be 3 Deluxe Expansions in 20 months. That's 1 every 6 1/2 months.

32 minutes ago, cielago said:

less i think. i don't recall the exact intervals, but the new Arkham Horror LCG started dropping previews for the packs RIGHT away. i mean, i felt like it was a month, MAX, after the core set dropped that they were talking up expansion. maybe thats nonstandard.

Copperative LCGs follow different route, just like in LOTR, Deluxe expansion released ight after Core Set is preparation for whole Cycle.

27 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

if we go by Game of Thrones, which was released in Oct 2015 - 16 months ago.

They've released 2 Deluxe Expansions with a 3rd coming between April - June - Lets assume June. That will be 3 Deluxe Expansions in 20 months. That's 1 every 6 1/2 months.

Deluxes in AGOT are expanding Core Set factions. In Conquest Necron fans (faction announced in manual along with Tyranids) had to wait nearly 1,5 year to get their first cards including Warlords.

8 minutes ago, kempy said:

Copperative LCGs follow different route, just like in LOTR, Deluxe expansion released ight after Core Set is preparation for whole Cycle.

Deluxes in AGOT are expanding Core Set factions. In Conquest Necron fans (faction announced in manual along with Tyranids) had to wait nearly 1,5 year to get their first cards including Warlords.

Fair enough, I don't know that game. The only ones I'm familiar with are Star Wars and GoT. Star Wars did get basically a 2 fraction expansion pretty early on, around the 6 month mark I believe. And if they plan to release the Spider and/or Mantis from the start (similar to how they knew they'd released the Smugglers and Bouny Hunters when they released the core set) I see no reason why they'd have to wait years.

16 hours ago, Jedi samurai said:

You don't need a villain faction right off the bat. Its not like all the clans are always united against an enemy. Clan vs Clan is perfectly fine. I do agree villain factions will be introduced at some point (and could be in the starter) but its not like Star Wars where you need the Sith or Imperials for the heroes to fight. Its more like GoT, each family standing on its own is perfectly fine.

There is also basic marketing. If you give everyone everything right off the bat, a certain % of the people won't buy things later, or will buy less/fewer things later. Being able to come out 6 months after launch and announce "The Spider are coming" or "The Mantis have arrived" is a big marketing, getting the fan base excited move.

I agree that Shadowlands does not need to be a complete faction at launch, but I think taint should be in the game, as a mechanic.

I think it's untenable to carry 9 Clans and Shadowlands into a Core Set. If I was doing this I would exclude Shadowlands, Spider, Mantis & Unicorn.

Lion, Crane, Phoenix, Crab, Dragon & Scorpion are plenty to create basic card game archetypes.

Lion: Synergistic weenie swarm

Crane: Control/Clock setter

Phoenix: Attachment decks/Card Draw

Dragon: Chained Actions

Scorpion: Control/Burn

Crab: Heavy Hitters

By starting with these six it allows them to flesh out the game with 240 cards.

If they have around 90 generic/general use cards, that would leave 150 cards or 25 cards to flesh out each faction.

In those 25 cards, you could have 15-18 Personalities, a Clan Weapon, 1-3 Strongholds, a Clan Specific Holding, and some Objective Set type of cards.

I would be excited to see a return of the Unicorn expansion. An invasion of the Shadowlands expansion. The Daigotsu takeover of the Shadowlands. The Mantis' ascension to a Great Clan would be a great expansion.

Its not that these Clans/Decks are not important, conversely, to give them their proper attention, there needs to be some hard choices at launch. Otherwise, we would have 9-10 watered down deck types spread across 240 Cards.

19 hours ago, Jedi samurai said:

@thehobgoblyn If you don't think the Kami can communicate with people, you shouldn't be trying to insult people about their knowledge of the setting. And you do know that one of the kami is currently reincarnated and leading a clan right? I think that is SOME measure of influence. I also showed you several ways the Kami have been included in the same - as personalities and as Guidence cards - so your whole position that they can't/won't be included in the LCG because they have never influenced the game is completely invalid. The thought that FFG may simply cut down on the number of clans in the starter is 100% valid, and one way they could draw the line/seperate the Spider and Mantis (the two obvious choices to introduce later) is to draw on those clans lack of a direction connection to Kami. Moving on.

Togoshi wasn't body hoping. Seriously, you need read some fictions.

More idiocy from you.

I covered literally every single instance of the Kami having any tangible impact on the story for 85% of its run. And the single instance you can name I missed was.... right, during Fu Leng's invasion of heavens, he took out Shinjo which means she was reincarnated. And I guess it figures that her reincarnated soul would be the clan champion. I said I hadn't seen that part resolve, so I guess it eventually did.

Just the fact that the entire Unicorn Clan did not keel over and die the moment they could no longer "communicate with their kami" that you insist that every single person in every single clan constantly does on the hour every hour and dares not make a single decision in their life without direct input from these grand heavenly puppet masters involved in every day life....

Because all that is a giant load of crap. The Kami have 0 influence on the world.

The fact that you keep bringing up that they were printed as personalities... IN A NONLEGAL PREQUEL SET CALLED DAWN OF THE EMPIRE-- a set involving things that happened 1100 years before the current point in the story at that point and were in no way remotely involved in the current story. NOT AT ALL.

How can you just not remotely grasp that concept? You may as well be claiming that Daodoji Uji was the biggest, greatest hero of the Destroyer War and personally killed most of the Rakasha single-handedly. You know... simply because Daodoji Uji was printed as a card once and that card called him the "Crane Clan Champion" that means he is constantly alive and active in Rokugan and can never die and permanently in charge of everything Crane Clan and any number of unstated things are free to be attributed to him because no Crane can ever or would ever act without his command and guidance-- after all, his card said he was the champion.

At least with the "guidance" cards you can be said to be onto something about their "spirit" having some active role. But given that Yoritomo, Daigotsu, Daikoku, the elemental dragons, Megumi, Natsu-Togumara, and Osano-wo are now "kami"... well, apparently you don't need one for belief in you to inspire people to greatness, do you? Furthermore nothing in all the 17 years of the game previously nor in the set afterwards indicated that the Kami had any sort of serious direct ongoing influence in the world.

Since it is a PURELY mechanical thing, moreover a pretty crap mechanical thing that probably just made people lose games faster (no way in hell is any celestial card with losing a whole province over), it can be utterly discarded. In fact, IT WAS. The next set just utterly got rid of them.

Moreover, the fact that there was a "Shinjo's Guidance" and a "Shinjo's Guidance Experienced" printed for use in time in the story when Shinjo was a mortal with no memories or abilities to access her previous celestial powers... guess what that means?...

YES!! They are not REMOTELY evidence of the Kami having a role in every day life. At absolute most... maybe they suggest some of their teachings and belief in them can give people an edge. If they were, there could not be a "Shinjo's Guidance" card printed at all as Shinjo's soul was in no shape to guide anyone.

Nothing. NOTHING you have presented as your "evidence" for your absolute certainty that the single more deciding factor for factions inclusions or their core mechanics would in any way, shape or form remotely have anything to do with Kami.

Moreover, you have presented 0 compelling evidence that Hantei, Bayushi, Hida, Doji, Shiba or Akodo-- literally more than half the kami right there-- have had any actual direct impact upon the world of the game since their deaths about 1000 years before the first story of the very first game set even launched. The only ones that EVER popped up were Togashi (because never left until he was unmasked and defeated), Fu Leng (because he is the big bad), Ryoshun (in a very limited way primarily after the very introduction of him as even a concept) and Shinjo (because the story team apparently had a big boner about her so kept her mucking about).

None of the others really do a **** thing. All you have got is that they were once mortal and those long dead personality cards got printed... and that there were cards that implied belief in them would give you a slight bonus, but cost so much it would all but guarantee you to lose if you believed in them too early.