Not sure a minis wargame is really something that'd have mass appeal- even if certain parties are dead wrong about the lack of variety to be had in such a game set in Rokugan- because, let's face it kiddos, where did Age of Sigmar come from? Why would Games Workshop pull the plug on a game that was part of their bread and butter for quite some time?

Is anyone here truly interested in buying and assembling rank upon rank of Ashigaru spearmen and painting them in the proper clan colors, just so they can field a couple blocks of Inferno Guard troops, the Firestorm Legion, a Houhou model, and Isawa Tsuke?

4 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Not sure a minis wargame is really something that'd have mass appeal- even if certain parties are dead wrong about the lack of variety to be had in such a game set in Rokugan- because, let's face it kiddos, where did Age of Sigmar come from? Why would Games Workshop pull the plug on a game that was part of their bread and butter for quite some time?

Is anyone here truly interested in buying and assembling rank upon rank of Ashigaru spearmen and painting them in the proper clan colors, just so they can field a couple blocks of Inferno Guard troops, the Firestorm Legion, a Houhou model, and Isawa Tsuke?

GW pulled the plug on Fantasy for several reasons.

1. Their rules are never tight, not well play tested, and always lead to mass confusion.

2. Everybody that played Fantasy had around three or four armies, so sales lagged. Who really wants their 4th resculpt of Elves?

3. The rules and system were antiquated and time consuming. The days of taking 15 minutes turns and then you take your 15 minute turn are pretty much over.

4. $120 for one model that is completely OP for the next 6 months, followed by another $140 model that's completely OP 6 months later, ad infinitum.

5. Really, no real reason to continue, but I could.

I can't imagine why a game like this would lose market share in today's market...

On 2/4/2017 at 3:35 PM, Daner0023 said:

I included the Clans that have a Kami.

I omitted Spider, Mantis, Shadowlands, Ratlings and other races of Rokugan, because when developing a game, you have to draw the line somewhere.

One of those lines would be that all Clans have the same non-elite troops.

Another line to draw would be to limit the number of Clans.

Pfft. The other clans may have Kami, but we have Tsuruchi. I wager he can outshoot any Kami any day of the week!

I wrote this longer post, but I realize it probably wasn't that pertinent because the perspective was of a Warhammer-style game. FFG's miniatures games have (so far) being relatively restrained. They don't have games with 10 different armies, each with a dozen different kinds of units. Just having four factions on launch would be a lot. The Star Wars games only have 2 or 3. Runewars is launching with 2, right? Maybe it will expand to 4 at some point? An L5R game at launch might literally be "The Emerald Empire" and "The Shadowlands." There wouldn't even be enough figures at launch to have one per Clan. Runewars seems to be launching with 4 different units per side in the core box (two rank and file units, one commander-type figure, and one "monster"), then two expansions per side (one of which is a new unit, one of which is more of one of the units on the core box). The question of whether one can differentiate the Clans enough to make 7-9 different factions at launch might not be the right question to ask.

The entire "Empire" army at launch might be an Emerald Champion figure (or Toturi, if it was more era-specific), a shugenja (possibly incorporated into the centerpiece unit), an infantry samurai unit, a mounted samurai unit, a unit of archers, and whatever centerpiece large figure they include (Yokuni in dragon form, a ryu, a Mantis shugenja on an Orochi, whatever). Shadowlands could be a unit of goblins, a unit of undead, a unit of Lost, a large Oni, and then something like Kuni Yori (to stick with the Clan war motiff in this hypothetical).

At least, that seems to me as something more consistent with how FFG has done miniatures.

I'd be so happy with SD minis of Rokugani people.

5 hours ago, Daramere said:

I wrote this longer post, but I realize it probably wasn't that pertinent because the perspective was of a Warhammer-style game. FFG's miniatures games have (so far) being relatively restrained. They don't have games with 10 different armies, each with a dozen different kinds of units. Just having four factions on launch would be a lot. The Star Wars games only have 2 or 3. Runewars is launching with 2, right? Maybe it will expand to 4 at some point? An L5R game at launch might literally be "The Emerald Empire" and "The Shadowlands." There wouldn't even be enough figures at launch to have one per Clan. Runewars seems to be launching with 4 different units per side in the core box (two rank and file units, one commander-type figure, and one "monster"), then two expansions per side (one of which is a new unit, one of which is more of one of the units on the core box). The question of whether one can differentiate the Clans enough to make 7-9 different factions at launch might not be the right question to ask.

The entire "Empire" army at launch might be an Emerald Champion figure (or Toturi, if it was more era-specific), a shugenja (possibly incorporated into the centerpiece unit), an infantry samurai unit, a mounted samurai unit, a unit of archers, and whatever centerpiece large figure they include (Yokuni in dragon form, a ryu, a Mantis shugenja on an Orochi, whatever). Shadowlands could be a unit of goblins, a unit of undead, a unit of Lost, a large Oni, and then something like Kuni Yori (to stick with the Clan war motiff in this hypothetical).

At least, that seems to me as something more consistent with how FFG has done miniatures.

Everybody keeps mentioning Shadowlands.

Onis are demons, and they are likely to have a Rune Wars Demon Army for Terratoth.

They really don't need a second Demon army.

I feel like having all basic troops work for all Clans would be the best way to integrate a Rokugan setting.

Ashigaru archers, footmen, spearmen with Samurai horse archers as the basic troop types.

Then, just add Clan Champions(7 Thunders) and all Clans are playable.

The first expansion could be 7 Elite Units, one for each Clan.

At that point, you could assess the Rokugani Expansion.

If it sells, expand it, if it doesn't then make a sound business decision.

That seems problematic from a business point of view. Seven almost identical factions out of the base box is both too little (in terms of variety) and too much (with 5 figures included that wouldn't be used in any given game). And seven expansions out of the gate would be, I think, more than they've ever launched with (you suggest this as one giant expansion, but I don't see FFG releasing $100 expansions). And you're suggesting that all 7 be brand new units, while FFG's usual 4-6 launch packs usually include repeats of base set units.

It's not that a game like this couldn't exist in theory, it just isn't a space FFG has indicated any interest in occupying.

The Runewars Core Game has:

42x small figures

4x Cavalry medium sized figures

2x Large Figures

Various other things to play the game.

1 hour ago, Daramere said:

That seems problematic from a business point of view. Seven almost identical factions out of the base box is both too little (in terms of variety) and too much (with 5 figures included that wouldn't be used in any given game). And seven expansions out of the gate would be, I think, more than they've ever launched with (you suggest this as one giant expansion, but I don't see FFG releasing $100 expansions). And you're suggesting that all 7 be brand new units, while FFG's usual 4-6 launch packs usually include repeats of base set units.

It's not that a game like this couldn't exist in theory, it just isn't a space FFG has indicated any interest in occupying.

The LSR Starter Army Expansion I'm proposing would have:

7x Unique Figures(Clan Champions)

8x Bowmen

16x Ashigaru Footmen

4x Samurai Cavalry

This would be enough points to face off against a starter army from the Core Set.

The price point on this could be around $60 MSRP.

Wave 1 Blisters could be the individual units. Wave 2 could Elite Units for each clan to flesh them out a little more with 4x Cavalry models or 8x Elite Footmen per booster. Each of these would have a $30 price point.

With all that said, this isn't how I would launch L5R as a minis game. I would release it like Imperial Assault as a story based miniature/RPG. I would introduce the Unique Clan Characters as the protagonists.

The antagonists of this game is somewhat trickier, as I would prefer it the be an intraEmpire struggle to introduce more Samurai, Ninjas, Shugenja, Monks & Ashigaru that can cross over into a Skirmish game.

On 2/6/2017 at 5:07 PM, Daner0023 said:

7x Unique Figures(Clan Champions)

8x Bowmen

16x Ashigaru Footmen

4x Samurai Cavalry

This would be enough points to face off against a starter army from the Core Set.

The price point on this could be around $60 MSRP.

Wave 1 Blisters could be the individual units. Wave 2 could Elite Units for each clan to flesh them out a little more with 4x Cavalry models or 8x Elite Footmen per booster. Each of these would have a $30 price point.

With all that said, this isn't how I would launch L5R as a minis game. I would release it like Imperial Assault as a story based miniature/RPG. I would introduce the Unique Clan Characters as the protagonists.

The antagonists of this game is somewhat trickier, as I would prefer it the be an intraEmpire struggle to introduce more Samurai, Ninjas, Shugenja, Monks & Ashigaru that can cross over into a Skirmish game.

I wouldn't put Clan Champions in the starter, much less only 7 of the 9. I think the starter needs to have 1 representative for each of the 9 Great Clans.

• An Akodo Tactican w/ back banner holding up a tessen as to signal the army.

• A Hida Battle Standard-bearer, big and burly, holding a Imperial battle standard with a tetsubo resting on his shoulder.

• An Isawa Shugenja, in a resplendent kimono, arms raised to call the kami.

• A Kakita Kenshinzen (lightly armored) in a stance suggesting an iai strike.

• A Daigotsu bushi in a demonic o-yori armed with a no-daichi

• A Mirumoto bushi with both blades of his daisho drawn.

• A Tsuruchi Archer preparing to fire his/her Dai-kyu.

• An Utaku Battle Maiden atop her noble steed armed with a Nagayari.

• A Shosuro Infiltrator, an armored ninja.

• 7 x Generic bowmen armed with Yumi

• 16 x Ashigaru Spearmen

• 3 x Generic Samurai Cavalry armed with Naginata

The 9 Great Clan Samurai would then be presented as the Officers of an Imperial Legion with the generics as the main body of the force.

3 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

I wouldn't put Clan Champions in the starter, much less only 7 of the 9. I think the starter needs to have 1 representative for each of the 9 Great Clans.

• An Akodo Tactican w/ back banner holding up a tessen as to signal the army.

• A Hida Battle Standard-bearer, big and burly, holding a Imperial battle standard with a tetsubo resting on his shoulder.

• An Isawa Shugenja, in a resplendent kimono, arms raised to call the kami.

• A Kakita Kenshinzen (lightly armored) in a stance suggesting an iai strike.

• A Daigotsu bushi in a demonic o-yori armed with a no-daichi

• A Mirumoto bushi with both blades of his daisho drawn.

• A Tsuruchi Archer preparing to fire his/her Dai-kyu.

• An Utaku Battle Maiden atop her noble steed armed with a Nagayari.

• A Shosuro Infiltrator, an armored ninja.

• 7 x Generic bowmen armed with Yumi

• 16 x Ashigaru Spearmen

• 3 x Generic Samurai Cavalry armed with Naginata

The 9 Great Clan Samurai would then be presented as the Officers of an Imperial Legion with the generics as the main body of the force.

The reason that I wanted to go with the Daimyo is to make the armies perform very differently with the same troops.

For a General to have an army wide effect, it needs to be a powerful figure from within the Clan, in that case, why not have the Daimyo?

I cut the Spider & Mantis because they aren't part of the Seven Thunders and 9 armies feels like a little too much for a starter. Also, if they start the stories with the Scrolls, those 2 Clans don't exist yet.

Also, if the game is successful, it gives them two armies to flesh out and expand later.

Also, the numbers you used have to be even for how Rune Wars basing works.

5 hours ago, Daner0023 said:

The reason that I wanted to go with the Daimyo is to make the armies perform very differently with the same troops.

For a General to have an army wide effect, it needs to be a powerful figure from within the Clan, in that case, why not have the Daimyo?

It does not require a super powerful figure to do that. A legion under an Akodo Tactican commander and one under a Daidoji Iron Warrior commander should play differently without requiring that they be Toturi and Daidoji Uji.

I cut the Spider & Mantis because they aren't part of the Seven Thunders and 9 armies feels like a little too much for a starter. Also, if they start the stories with the Scrolls, those 2 Clans don't exist yet.

Despite the nostalgia bomb for old school players, it would be it would be a very bad place to start. You are excluding two of the largest and most active existing player groups for little advantage. It would be better to start with a new mostly independent story about this legion fighting a threat such as a bandit army.

Also, if the game is successful, it gives them two armies to flesh out and expand later.

It would be far smarter to start with a single "L5R Imperial Legion" army for Runewars and then gradually expand it to 9 armies over the course of several years as new L5R units are added over several dozen waves.

Also, the numbers you used have to be even for how Rune Wars basing works.

They are even. The Tsuruchi is the default 8th person in the two tray Bowmen unit and the Battle Maiden is the default 4th in the two tray Cavalry unit. In effect these two units would be upgraded at default in this starter army which can be more complex as it does not need to be an entry level Runewars set.

4 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

It does not require a super powerful figure to do that. A legion under an Akodo Tactican commander and one under a Daidoji Iron Warrior commander should play differently without requiring that they be Toturi and Daidoji Uji.

Despite the nostalgia bomb for old school players, it would be it would be a very bad place to start. You are excluding two of the largest and most active existing player groups for little advantage. It would be better to start with a new mostly independent story about this legion fighting a threat such as a bandit army.

It would be far smarter to start with a single "L5R Imperial Legion" army for Runewars and then gradually expand it to 9 armies over the course of several years as new L5R units are added over several dozen waves.

They are even. The Tsuruchi is the default 8th person in the two tray Bowmen unit and the Battle Maiden is the default 4th in the two tray Cavalry unit. In effect these two units would be upgraded at default in this starter army which can be more complex as it does not need to be an entry level Runewars set.

Again, I think L5R would work better as a story based minis game like Descent or Imperial Assault, that includes a Skirmish mode.

Then they can create all sorts of characters from across the Clans. Then, once a nice variety is established, then they could release Rune Wars versions of the Character cards in a Core Set along with ranks of Ashigaru.

10 hours ago, Daner0023 said:

Again, I think L5R would work better as a story based minis game like Descent or Imperial Assault, that includes a Skirmish mode.

Then they can create all sorts of characters from across the Clans. Then, once a nice variety is established, then they could release Rune Wars versions of the Character cards in a Core Set along with ranks of Ashigaru.

I don't think they can go with just a story based minis game and then later expand into a war game.

Consider why Star Wars has 3 mini lines. Each covers the needs for different types miniatures for the same gameline. Armada covers fleet battles, X-wing covers fighter battles and Imperial Assault covers human scale fights.

A smart think to do would be to have at least two minis games. My preference would be an "L5R vs Runewars: Imperial Legion" line to cover the armored at war samurai minis with the starter army being what I described earlier in the thread and a "L5R:Emerald Magistrates" line that would supply mostly unarmored "civilian" minis.

While I would not totally be against a miniature line.

I feel that they need concentrate on the card and rpg licence for now.

One of the biggest complaints that I see with the Star Wars licence is the lack of focus.

they are just now finishing the character books for Edge of the Empire almost 4 years later and still have Age of Rebellion and Force and Destiny to finish.

2 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

I don't think they can go with just a story based minis game and then later expand into a war game.

Consider why Star Wars has 3 mini lines. Each covers the needs for different types miniatures for the same gameline. Armada covers fleet battles, X-wing covers fighter battles and Imperial Assault covers human scale fights.

A smart think to do would be to have at least two minis games. My preference would be an "L5R vs Runewars: Imperial Legion" line to cover the armored at war samurai minis with the starter army being what I described earlier in the thread and a "L5R:Emerald Magistrates" line that would supply mostly unarmored "civilian" minis.

Rune Wars came from Descent, its set in Terrinoth. They could use the same models for both games, if they wanted to do that.

They could do the same thing with L5R. The core Ashigaru units could come in the starter with some new characters.

5 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

While I would not totally be against a miniature line.

I feel that they need concentrate on the card and rpg licence for now.

One of the biggest complaints that I see with the Star Wars licence is the lack of focus.

they are just now finishing the character books for Edge of the Empire almost 4 years later and still have Age of Rebellion and Force and Destiny to finish.

The RPG could tie into a Descent style minis game.

30 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

While I would not totally be against a miniature line.

I feel that they need concentrate on the card and rpg licence for now.

One of the biggest complaints that I see with the Star Wars licence is the lack of focus.

they are just now finishing the character books for Edge of the Empire almost 4 years later and still have Age of Rebellion and Force and Destiny to finish.

I'm not sure I've heard the same criticism you have. For one, it's not necessarily the same people working across the different projects. I'd have to check all the credits, and it's been a while since I bought anything X-Wing, or any of the non-RPG Star Wars products, but even the three RPG lines have different developers (though they share a somewhat common crop of writers). I don't really worry about them losing focus on L5R, because so long as they have one person (or a few people) overseeing the line to keep things consistent, they can work on however many different projects they want all at the same time if they have enough people to do the work.

13 hours ago, Daner0023 said:

Again, I think L5R would work better as a story based minis game like Descent or Imperial Assault, that includes a Skirmish mode.

Then they can create all sorts of characters from across the Clans. Then, once a nice variety is established, then they could release Rune Wars versions of the Character cards in a Core Set along with ranks of Ashigaru.

I kinda like this idea. At least, I think L5R can work well in both a story based minis game and some based more on their Rune Wars system, I'm just not sure if it would work well the way you suggest. I'd be willing to take a chance on it, though.

1 hour ago, deraforia said:

I'm not sure I've heard the same criticism you have. For one, it's not necessarily the same people working across the different projects. I'd have to check all the credits, and it's been a while since I bought anything X-Wing, or any of the non-RPG Star Wars products, but even the three RPG lines have different developers (though they share a somewhat common crop of writers). I don't really worry about them losing focus on L5R, because so long as they have one person (or a few people) overseeing the line to keep things consistent, they can work on however many different projects they want all at the same time if they have enough people to do the work.

I kinda like this idea. At least, I think L5R can work well in both a story based minis game and some based more on their Rune Wars system, I'm just not sure if it would work well the way you suggest. I'd be willing to take a chance on it, though.

My thought is this: L5R has always been about the Characters. A Descent style/story based Campaign could also be a character study of the protagonists and antagonists.

It would be a way to introduce a lot of different characters and develop them in conjunction with the LCG, RPG, and ny novels.

Once a lot of new or old Characters are introduced or reintroduced to the world, FFG would have a solid basis for a tabletop games across 7-9 Clans.

My immediate thought for a Core Set would have the Protagonists as Hida Kisada, Doji Hoturi, Matsu Tsuko, Shinzo Yokatsu, Isawa Kaede, & Togashi Hoshi. The antagonists could be Bayushi Shoju and the Core Campaign could largely play out the Scrolls.

It would be a perfect way to introduce new friends to Rokugan and let old friends rediscover some of their favorite stories and Characters.

It would also create a wide diversity of miniatures to grow an ever expanding miniatures game, that could ultimately expand into a tabletop game.

1 hour ago, tenchi2a said:

While I would not totally be against a miniature line.

I feel that they need concentrate on the card and rpg licence for now.

One of the biggest complaints that I see with the Star Wars licence is the lack of focus.

they are just now finishing the character books for Edge of the Empire almost 4 years later and still have Age of Rebellion and Force and Destiny to finish.

That seems to be more a side effect of releasing 1 game in 3 different parts.

1 hour ago, Daner0023 said:

Rune Wars came from Descent, its set in Terrinoth. They could use the same models for both games, if they wanted to do that.

They could do the same thing with L5R. The core Ashigaru units could come in the starter with some new characters.

I do not think you are considering how different the model needs are for a story based skirmish game and a war game and how diverse an L5R mini line needs to be to cover all of L5R's needs.

The mini line needs to cover both samurai at war and samurai at court.

32 minutes ago, Daner0023 said:

My thought is this: L5R has always been about the Characters. A Descent style/story based Campaign could also be a character study of the protagonists and antagonists.

It would be a way to introduce a lot of different characters and develop them in conjunction with the LCG, RPG, and ny novels.

Once a lot of new or old Characters are introduced or reintroduced to the world, FFG would have a solid basis for a tabletop games across 7-9 Clans.

My immediate thought for a Core Set would have the Protagonists as Hida Kisada, Doji Hoturi, Matsu Tsuko, Shinzo Yokatsu, Isawa Kaede, & Togashi Hoshi. The antagonists could be Bayushi Shoju and the Core Campaign could largely play out the Scrolls.

It would be a perfect way to introduce new friends to Rokugan and let old friends rediscover some of their favorite stories and Characters.

It would also create a wide diversity of miniatures to grow an ever expanding miniatures game, that could ultimately expand into a tabletop game.

No. You are incredibly naive and are nostalgia locked. L5R does not need to retread old ground just because that would make you happy and starting with the Clan Wars Daimyo locks where you can go and how things can grow while also alienating a fair amount of the player base.

I feel a better Core campaign starting point would be to have the story focus on the Yoriki (made up of members from all the clans) of an Emerald Magistrate as they investigate crimes within the capital. As the campaign progresses the protagonists could face saki/tea house brawls, ronin duelists, bloodspeakers with oni, discover Kolat sleeper agents, protect witnesses from Ninja assassins, and get caught in a feud between courtiers before uncovering a conspiracy that threatens the Emperor all the while having 9 different perspectives butting heads.

I would be up for a not so much mini game, but how about generic minis for the system.

you could release them in sets that are not random.

Set 1 Samurai (generic)

Set 2 Shugenja (generic)

Set 3 Courtier (generic)

Set 4 Oni

Set 5 etc.

they could even put some watered down movement and combat rule in them and a map.

that way mini players have some mini rule to collect, RPG's have some cool minis to represent their PC and bad guys.

And later if the sets do well they can release NPC packs, and clan styles minis or maybe even some full-blown miniature skirmishes rules

4 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

I would be up for a not so much mini game, but how about generic minis for the system.

you could release them in sets that are not random.

Set 1 Samurai (generic)

Set 2 Shugenja (generic)

Set 3 Courtier (generic)

Set 4 Oni

Set 5 etc.

they could even put some watered down movement and combat rule in them and a map.

that way mini players have some mini rule to collect, RPG's have some cool minis to represent their PC and bad guys.

And later if the sets do well they can release NPC packs, and clan styles minis or maybe even some full-blown miniature skirmishes rules

Well, if you are putting out a whole set of samurai, shugenja and courtier, I imagine you'd have 5-6 minis in each. You could probably cover half the clans in each set (with others probably being passable if you just paint up the mini differently). I would skip the Oni set and instead put the "etc" set first, because you are going to want a set with ninja, monk, etc. to exist more than an oni set.

This is what I was saying. Make minis that people are going to want to use as avatars during their card game or utilize as part of the RPG rather than trying to push a giant epic-scale model game out of no where.

Just to get away from the mini's talk, cause not ever Fantasy Flight brand gets that kind of game (my assumption is because they are expensive so the brands that sell the best, like Star Wars, are the ones that get them) and thats only one way they could go with L5R. AEG tried doing a mini's game at one point (the Ninja attacking the lion castle game, I forget the name) and while I'm not sure how well it did, it they didn't produce another one.

I think its more likely, at least in the short term while the brand regains a footing, that if we see an expansion outside of the core LCG it will be into products like the Star Wars Destiny game. Maybe a quicker card game based only around dueling - you pick 1 duelist as your character and you get a 10-20 card deck to represent your techniques. They could expand this concept to include Shugenja fairly easily as well. I think an RPG core rule book would be fairly cheap to produce, and a likely early addition to the brand. I also wouldn't be surprise if, to get the most out of their new IP, we see products centered around the Yodotai or the Burning Sands.

And regarding which clans we'll see when the game launches, I wouldn't be surprised if the Spider and Mantis clans are not included in the starter box. This would give them 2 obvious places to go for their first "big expansions" (with other options like - Ronin, Oni, Rattling, Naga etc.... being there as well) If we do see "side games" based on the Yodotai or Burning Sands, they could use their "big expansions" to add those factions to the core game as well.

The Ninja attacking the Lion castle game was...Ninja.

1 hour ago, Jedi samurai said:

And regarding which clans we'll see when the game launches, I wouldn't be surprised if the Spider and Mantis clans are not included in the starter box.

Well that's a presumptuous statement with no facts or reasoning to back it up. 'This would give them 2 obvious to go with their big expansion' is weak at best... Especially since you listed all kinds of other places to go with their first big expansion. Singling out 2 clans for no reason other than to single them out just shows your bias.

11 minutes ago, Sparks Duh said:

Well that's a presumptuous statement with no facts or reasoning to back it up. 'This would give them 2 obvious to go with their big expansion' is weak at best... Especially since you listed all kinds of other places to go with their first big expansion. Singling out 2 clans for no reason other than to single them out just shows your bias.

You're right, which is why I didn't stat it as a fact, but just something that wouldn't surprise me.

As pointed out above - the Spider and Mantis clans could potentially be left out of the starter because of their more recent addition to the game (at least as great clans), they don't have Kami attached to their clans (so if each clan has a Kami card of some kind, adding them later with different make up/mechanics makes sense), the number of cards needed to support two extra clans at launch MIGHT mean putting some off until later, and while there are other places they can go with the big expansions, what would sell more boxes up front when trying to hook people to the game - the Mantis or Spider Clan, or Rattlings and Ronin?