38 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Have the battles in L5R actually, TRULY, ever been about army vs. army.

How many instances in the history of the game can you name any time when two major personalities clashed and one won the clash between the two, but lost because the other one had a bigger, better organized, more powerful army that still overwhelmed them... I mean, outside of maybe a samurai vs. shadowlands scenario.

L5R has always been about hero vs. hero or, sometimes, a group of heroes against a singular powerful villain. Sure, armies exist... but they generally serve as little more than the background noise surrounding the inter-personal drama and the outcome of the battle is wholly dependent upon the interchange between the individuals. For these sorts of scenarios to even come about suggests some of the most unorganized, chaotic army battles imaginable.

So given that the nameless, faceless hordes never actually contribute to the outcome of any battle, I am not sure what representation they really need. Do you really want to play a model game where 99% of the models on the field are incapable of doing harm to the other 1% that actually determines everything?

From that sort of perspective, if you consider the skirmish being represented in the model game as just a small snapshot of what is going on across the entire battlefield, it really isn't that terribly out-of-place. In the chaos of pitched warfare, two squads stumble upon one another....

While this is true, I don't agree with it. Every mini-wargaming is hero VS hero or something, yet, they exist. I can really see L5R take the place of the dead Warhammer Fantasy Battles, mainly because L5R has lore as deep as WH is. Of course, some changes is required, but like WH, it could use special characters, which are the heros based on the timeline or generic one for custom builds.

Also, by having the possibility to have heros slot in the army, it could be possible to bring a campaign, where non-special characters may be used. Then, based on the results of the battle, the winner gains some XP to improve his hero and the loser gain less XP. This way, you'll have some progression bringing a way to create a story around the campaign. It could also have some death mechanism, where if the hero dies, it's dead for good and a new one has to be created.

Your question is basically answered by the WH communauty, since special characters are really tough compared to rank and files models. There's too many skirmish games now, while warfare mini-game was mainly under WHFB, which is now AoS, another skirmish clone...

17 minutes ago, Crawd said:

While this is true, I don't agree with it. Every mini-wargaming is hero VS hero or something, yet, they exist. I can really see L5R take the place of the dead Warhammer Fantasy Battles, mainly because L5R has lore as deep as WH is. Of course, some changes is required, but like WH, it could use special characters, which are the heros based on the timeline or generic one for custom builds.

Also, by having the possibility to have heros slot in the army, it could be possible to bring a campaign, where non-special characters may be used. Then, based on the results of the battle, the winner gains some XP to improve his hero and the loser gain less XP. This way, you'll have some progression bringing a way to create a story around the campaign. It could also have some death mechanism, where if the hero dies, it's dead for good and a new one has to be created.

Your question is basically answered by the WH communauty, since special characters are really tough compared to rank and files models. There's too many skirmish games now, while warfare mini-game was mainly under WHFB, which is now AoS, another skirmish clone...

I hate to say this, but... L5R doesn't have anything remotely near the sort of appeal to try to replace WarHammer.

Thing is with WarHammer Fantasy Battle, it was playing on tropes that exist in many, Many, MANY successful franchises in the west. Sure, a lot of it traces back to Tolkien, but what fantasy based thing does not have Elves and Orcs and Dwarfs? Practically none! It is something that everyone is familiar with.

And when you compare any of those two armies, they are definitively very, VERY different things from even the first glance. Within WarHammer they took ques from different cultures, in fact the whole thing was basically playing out on a fantastical map of Earth with the various real world cultures being exaggerated and warped into these nations of demihumans and monsters or humans who have gryphons or unicorns or bears at their command.

L5R has... samurai. Just samurai. No fantastical creatures, no giant monsters, no people with mystical superhuman abilities.... not much outside the shadowlands anyway. Just... rainbow colored samurai.

Moreover, the allowed functional weaponry and battle tactics is not only not more expansive and fantastical than the real world... it is actually more LIMITED due to some fundamental errors the original designers made with their understanding of samurai warfare.

Now, if we are talking singular characters here depicted in artwork with just the right background, just the right activity displayed, just the right lighting, just the right framing... by all means you can convey very easily with that how exactly "Dark Blue Samurai", "Light Blue Samurai", "Red Samurai", "Orange Samurai" and "Purple Samurai" are meant to be fairly culturally different-- no where near as culturally different as elves, dwarf and orcs, I am afraid that is your fanboyism over-riding your common sense if you intended that as part of your claim that the setting is as "deep", it really, really is not... But, at least one could argue that there is some significant cultural and thematic difference there. It just isn't going to be readily apparent enough to uninitiated for them to throw down $1000-$2000 and hundreds of hours to constructing and painting a "field viable" army. Honestly, with the buy-in cost point of WarHammer fantasy, it is shocking it didn't die out 20 years ago.

But if we are talking 100+ stock bushi on the board generally all armed with katana (the only viable weapon in Rokugan, at least according to the fiction and RPG stats) and the only really significant difference between them is the uniform color, the symbol on the flag and the hero leading the unit...

Well, it is the equivalent of WarHammer Fantasy Battle if the only existing army in the whole game was The Empire... actually, it'd be a lot more like WarHammer 40K where the only viable army is rainbow colored Space Marines where they also get special abilities solely based on their paint color.... except even Space Marine armaments get to be far more diverse and interesting than what is allowed in L5R.

But if one goes with the model of a skirmish game... well, you get to do without those massive ranks of dud soldiers with no unique special characteristics and instead the focus can be on giving each unique model individual characteristics... and could also serve to keep the price point low enough that it wouldn't be utterly impossible for someone to actually pick up and try out the game for the first time rather than demanding from them the cost of a motorscooter and a time investment equal to a college course to even consider trying the game out just once to see if they might like it.

I have a habit of coming off as too harsh and I probably have here. All I am saying is you need to look outside yourself and consider from a broader perspective. Imagine that your soul and sense of identity wasn't entirely sunk into this thing already... when you decide to "dream big", pull that dream into reality. And ask yourself... if you saw something like that for the very first time without any of the introduction you got... would you actually want to buy in? And would you actually want to do so enough to overcome the initial hurdles to start playing it... particularly with no guarantee that anyone else is going to buy in for you to have anyone to play the thing against.

With any model game, you can, of course, decide to go bigger and bigger. You want to play a 50,000 point game of WarHammer or WarHammer 40K? Its probably been done with multiple players on each side of the battlefield, taking up an entire store for a multiple day epic event. That's not how the game is meant to be played, but nothing stops you from adding more and more and more models to both sides.

If the game starts as a skirmish game with 5-10 models per a side and you want to do it with 100 models per a side? You can just buy that many more models and do it yourself. But starting with only 5-10 means that anyone starting the game for the first time only needs to buy 5-10 in order to start playing right away and have a fun experience. (A single squad vs. a single squad in WarHammer Fantasy is FAR from an interesting or fun game) And that is what is going to needed to see the game succeed at all at this point-- low initial buy-in and beyond that you can go as big as you and your opponent want to go.

Yeah, I don't know that a miniatures game would have much of an appeal outside very, very limited circles. Some sort of strategic boardgame, on the other hand (I'm thinking something like Ikusa or Axis & Allies with heroes and politics thrown in)...

48 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Now, if we are talking singular characters here depicted in artwork with just the right background, just the right activity displayed, just the right lighting, just the right framing... by all means you can convey very easily with that how exactly "Dark Blue Samurai", "Light Blue Samurai", "Red Samurai", "Orange Samurai" and "Purple Samurai" are meant to be fairly culturally different-- no where near as culturally different as elves, dwarf and orcs, I am afraid that is your fanboyism over-riding your common sense if you intended that as part of your claim that the setting is as "deep", it really, really is not... But, at least one could argue that there is some significant cultural and thematic difference there. It just isn't going to be readily apparent enough to uninitiated for them to throw down $1000-$2000 and hundreds of hours to constructing and painting a "field viable" army. Honestly, with the buy-in cost point of WarHammer fantasy, it is shocking it didn't die out 20 years ago.

First of all, you could stay a little more polite instead of throwing words like: "your fanboyism" or stuffs like that. There is nothing wrong about throwing idea, you know.

I quoted this just to ask you something. What's the difference with the card game then? It's basically playing "Dark Blue Samurai", "Light Blue Samurai", etc. in the end. From people outside the loop of "What a Clan?" it's all the same. The card game has the same problem when, as you said, get out of the "fanboyism". It's not like MtG who has clear definitions of their faction, even if now, it means a lot less than before. Yet, people spent a lot of money on cards with samurai of different colors.

22 minutes ago, Crawd said:

First of all, you could stay a little more polite instead of throwing words like: "your fanboyism" or stuffs like that. There is nothing wrong about throwing idea, you know.

I quoted this just to ask you something. What's the difference with the card game then? It's basically playing "Dark Blue Samurai", "Light Blue Samurai", etc. in the end. From people outside the loop of "What a Clan?" it's all the same. The card game has the same problem when, as you said, get out of the "fanboyism". It's not like MtG who has clear definitions of their faction, even if now, it means a lot less than before. Yet, people spent a lot of money on cards with samurai of different colors.

I can see your point, and I agree that the tone could stand a little softening, but Hobgoblyn makes a valid point about the cost of start-up. In 20F, I could buy one starter and get a decent, playable deck (some of the starter decks were even quite good), plus a couple packs that may allow me to swap out a card or two. I don't have much experience with miniatures, but what little I've seen seems to indicate that they're far more expensive. Obviously, this doesn't mean that miniatures can't make for good gaming, but it does mean that the appeal has to be all the stronger in order to draw in players.

In addition to cost, I see another big difference between card games and miniatures (though this may only apply to me and not to everybody). With miniatures, the first thing one tends to notice is the visual appeal of the models. Yes, there are rules and abilities and whatnot, but the models are what's most likely to pique a new player's curiosity and get them to wander over to the table in the first place. With card games (again, speaking only for myself), the first thing I notice is the board layout. The pictures take up only half (or less) of each card, and are secondary to the many stacked cards, bowed cards, face-up cards, face-down cards, black-backed cards and green-backed cards. Yes, there is a rich setting, and someone who doesn't like samurai will probably be turned off from the game, but the initial draw is more likely to be the complexity of the game mechanics rather than the visual appeal.

That's not to say that a no one would try an L5R miniatures game or that it couldn't be fun, but it's highly unlikely that it would appeal to enough players to make it sustainable. The setting, in my opinion, is far better suited to card games (where you can include many, many characters/abilities/elements at once in each expansion) and stand-alone board games (where I'm buying all the pieces together, not paying specifically for a single piece).

44 minutes ago, Crawd said:

First of all, you could stay a little more polite instead of throwing words like: "your fanboyism" or stuffs like that. There is nothing wrong about throwing idea, you know.

I quoted this just to ask you something. What's the difference with the card game then? It's basically playing "Dark Blue Samurai", "Light Blue Samurai", etc. in the end. From people outside the loop of "What a Clan?" it's all the same. The card game has the same problem when, as you said, get out of the "fanboyism". It's not like MtG who has clear definitions of their faction, even if now, it means a lot less than before. Yet, people spent a lot of money on cards with samurai of different colors.

I mentioned that already.

The artwork on cards displays a single identifiable character. The character is placed in a very specific setting. The character is shown taking very specific actions. There is a good amount of detail in the clothing, in the expression, in just the body language of the pose of the character. And then you flip to the next card in the same faction and it will be a totally different character in their own setting undertaking their own actions with their own clothing details, expression, body language and so on. And then you flip to the next personality which will have all of its own unique elements...

Even if you have just one personality in each clan, you can contrast them and get a basic idea from the art involving a lot of elements you just aren't going to have on a model what the characters are all about and how they are similar, but more important how they differentiate.

And if you have say... 3 personalities from the same faction? Well, you can then see what kind of themes are similar between them and understand that these elements are core elements of the faction while also noting the differences and understanding that these differences are not part of the core theme.

But you contrast that with a model game. You are talking about having a giant block of generic bushi. Well... just how different is the generic bushi from the "purple clan" as opposed to the generic bushi from the "dark blue clan". And I mean rank and file here, not "special elite student of their super specialty school that none other in the empire could possibly match"-- just... rank and file soldier that is going to make up 95% of the army.

As different as a skeleton is from a wood elf? That is what you imply if you suggest that it is equally deep and diverse and has as much appeal as Warhammer Fantasy.

But that's not true. I know its not true. You know its not true.

I reality, there really isn't any sort of difference between those rank and file soldiers to the extent that if you zoomed out to fit 100 of them into the picture that anything but their uniform color would stand out. Now you could imply that the "purple samurai" are all supposed to have horses, I guess... I don't know... is it really even possible for the Unicorn to mount every single last one of their rank and file? I think even they have standard infantry.

So if all the character, all the uniqueness of the factions is going to be contained in all of 5 actual models on the battlefield... why create anything beyond those 5?

Again, if the game is created and released so that there is 1 box for each clan and the rules for each of the few individual models in that box are developed to the point that you can have an interesting, tactical game with only that small number of combatants on each side, that really 1 set each is all you need for a good beginners battle... there is no reason you can't just add more and more models to each side if you want a more epic game... No one is going to say "please don't buy any more of our models". And if the rules become too cumbersome once too many things are on the field, you can create alternate rules so that most of the models just function as standard rank-and-file with no special abilities.

As for the models having limit appeal... Well... yes. Although, I have to imagine that there are actually a decent number of players who will want to pick up 1 box each of their favorite couple factions just to paint up and keep on a shelf or on the table next to their stronghold as sort of an avatar. Even if such people never use the models for the actual game the rules that come with them describe, there will probably be some market for just the models themselves.

33 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Many many things I disagree with, but it's fine because...

You have a very clear and definitive idea of what Rokugan is, yet this vision is not shared by everyone. The beauty of role-playing games is taking an universe and making it ours, and you did just that.

However, like I said earlier and in many other threads, your interpretation is just that, an interpretation. I welcome any civil discussion and I really enjoy clashing ideas against someone who do not see everything the way I do, but I dislike when you present an opinion as a fact. Your opinion is actually pretty good and you raise some equally good points, but other people in this very threads have a valid point of view as well. When I'll have the time (I'm writing this in my break), I'll go over some of the things you've presented here and proposed a different viewpoint, but I humbly ask you to watch the way you present your own ideas and how easily people perceive it as ridiculing others.

Thanks a lot.

On 2/1/2017 at 3:27 PM, JJ48 said:

You're clearly not familiar with how the Internet works. Now that you've taken a certain stance, no matter how small, you must treat with scorn and ridicule anyone who doesn't agree with your position 100%, even if they mostly agree and just prefer to use different terms. And you must never, under any circumstances, let anyone think that the topic is anything less than the single most important issue ever to face mankind.

I DISAGREE!

Couldn't resist.

On 2/1/2017 at 3:27 PM, JJ48 said:

That being said, I agree that it's a good thing L5R was bought by FFG rather than by someone else. From what I've seen of FFG's games, they're pretty competent.

Are you trying to start a flame war? Lay off the superlatives, man! Calm it down over there!

8 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

L5R has... samurai. Just samurai. No fantastical creatures, no giant monsters, no people with mystical superhuman abilities.... not much outside the shadowlands anyway. Just... rainbow colored samurai.

And shugenja. And monks - I mean, a hypothetical Dragon army would look vastly different from a hypothetical Crane army. And the tattooed monks of the Togashi have some pretty mystical superhuman abilities. So do the Asako family of the Phoenix. And the Unicorn would be mostly mounted. And mostly Battle Maidens. And the Yobanjin ride giant wyrms. And so do some Crab. There are actual Dragons hanging around in the world (and the Dragon Clan had a champion who could turn into one). And the Mantis had the Orochi - all of those are pretty giant monsters and fantastical creatures. Heck, throw in a Destroyers army, and it'd be nothing but giant monsters (and four-armed Iron thingies)! And then you throw the Shadowlands/Spider into the mix, not to mention the Nezumi and Naga... all of these hypothetical miniatures would have much more differentiation than a simple paint-job. I mean, I think I understand your point, but I think it could use a little more exploration - don't limit yourself to "only samurai", because then you're leaving out a lot of what makes L5R fun! If I'm misunderstanding you, please let me know.

Your point about most western tabletop battle games being Tolkein-derived is well taken, however. And since it's been done - one could even say "over-done" - wouldn't there be a market for something new and different? There are tons of miniatures games based off of different IPs out there - steampunk, horror, superhero, elves/dwarves/knights - I for one would really enjoy a different, eastern-inspired game! Is there one out there? Because if there is, I need to get on that...

10 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Have the battles in L5R actually, TRULY, ever been about army vs. army.

How many instances in the history of the game can you name any time when two major personalities clashed and one won the clash between the two, but lost because the other one had a bigger, better organized, more powerful army that still overwhelmed them... I mean, outside of maybe a samurai vs. shadowlands scenario.

L5R has always been about hero vs. hero or, sometimes, a group of heroes against a singular powerful villain. Sure, armies exist... but they generally serve as little more than the background noise surrounding the inter-personal drama and the outcome of the battle is wholly dependent upon the interchange between the individuals. For these sorts of scenarios to even come about suggests some of the most unorganized, chaotic army battles imaginable.

So given that the nameless, faceless hordes never actually contribute to the outcome of any battle, I am not sure what representation they really need. Do you really want to play a model game where 99% of the models on the field are incapable of doing harm to the other 1% that actually determines everything?

From that sort of perspective, if you consider the skirmish being represented in the model game as just a small snapshot of what is going on across the entire battlefield, it really isn't that terribly out-of-place. In the chaos of pitched warfare, two squads stumble upon one another....

http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Battles_of_Rokugan

I've read all of the scrolls, the novels, the expansion stories and the online stuff. I remember quite a few big battles, tons of scout skirmishes, and of course the scenarios you mentioned.

I think Rune Wars is a perfect battle system for battles and skirmishes in Rokugan.

Heroes can be effective as a single stand or they can join a unit to make that unit stronger.

Small groups of cavalry, archers, and other elite troops, combined with hordes of spear men, footmen, and other rabble in formation is a perfect fit for L5R.

11 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Have the battles in L5R actually, TRULY, ever been about army vs. army.

How many instances in the history of the game can you name any time when two major personalities clashed and one won the clash between the two, but lost because the other one had a bigger, better organized, more powerful army that still overwhelmed them... I mean, outside of maybe a samurai vs. shadowlands scenario.

On the top of my head?

One of the biggest battle of all time. Khan's Defiance. Chagatai brings his army through teleportation at the gates of Toshi Ranbo, breaks the wall with his Mantis allies, kills Kaneka in a duel, forces the Empress to commit suicide and then has to retreat because his troops are too tired and reinforcements (the Phoenix) managed to thwart his plan. The guy succeeded at everything by himself, but his army failed him.

Battle of the White Stag. Garen Hawkthorne leads an army of gaijins armed with guns. He killed the Empress and the Lion Clan Champion, but had to retreat because the defenders were enraged by the death of Hantei Yugozohime and overrun them.

I can search for others example in the wiki as well. Armies vs armies are very frequent in L5R. Most of the conflicts are about ji-samurais fighting one another, with a few guest appearances from named samurais. The written stories, however, are about samurais, because it's better storytelling.

6 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

I hate to say this, but... L5R doesn't have anything remotely near the sort of appeal to try to replace WarHammer.

Thing is with WarHammer Fantasy Battle, it was playing on tropes that exist in many, Many, MANY successful franchises in the west. Sure, a lot of it traces back to Tolkien, but what fantasy based thing does not have Elves and Orcs and Dwarfs? Practically none! It is something that everyone is familiar with.

There is more than one type of fantasy, but since you specifically mentionned Tolkien, let's go with medieval fantasy, both high and low.

Narnia, A Song of Fire and Ice, Diablo, Conan, Zelda

That's more than practically none, and I only kept almost everyone knows. I can name a lot more obscure ones.

6 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

And when you compare any of those two armies, they are definitively very, VERY different things from even the first glance. Within WarHammer they took ques from different cultures, in fact the whole thing was basically playing out on a fantastical map of Earth with the various real world cultures being exaggerated and warped into these nations of demihumans and monsters or humans who have gryphons or unicorns or bears at their command.

L5R has... samurai. Just samurai. No fantastical creatures, no giant monsters, no people with mystical superhuman abilities.... not much outside the shadowlands anyway. Just... rainbow colored samurai.

You are comparing apples and oranges. I'm not a WHFB player, so I might get some details wrong, but while I do agree all the armies look and probably play differently, you cannot say all factions in a L5R mini game will be the same just because they are all samurais and look the same apart from color differences. All it takes is to design the armies intelligently.

Unicorn Clan: Heavy use a cavalry and ranged attacks, as well as animals. An Unicorn army is all about controlling the battlefield, mobility and making sure your forces are away from the danger. Sure, you have purple samurai, but they move slightly farther than other samurais, and you have horses, dogs and teleporting shugenjas...

Crab Clan: Big heavy units. Hit hard, take a whole lot of damage before going down. You can have ranged support through siege engines, extremely dangerous at a distance, completly useless in melee (Good thing you keep a whole Berserker unit ready in casse survives pierces the barrage)

Scorpion Clan: Ninjas! Kill them before they see you, or before they have time to act after they see you.

Mantis Clan: Rely heavily on independent characters. Other armies have multiple units with 5 to 10 guys in each, you field 3 Yoritomo Bushi, 2 Moshi Shugenja and a handful of overpowered Tsuruchi archers. They are tough, they are powerful, but a few bad rolls and you lose half your figthing forces.

All samurais, almost no non-human characters (and the exceptions are animals or man-made machines), and you have a wide diversity of playstyle and units.

6 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Now, if we are talking singular characters here depicted in artwork with just the right background, just the right activity displayed, just the right lighting, just the right framing... by all means you can convey very easily with that how exactly "Dark Blue Samurai", "Light Blue Samurai", "Red Samurai", "Orange Samurai" and "Purple Samurai" are meant to be fairly culturally different-- no where near as culturally different as elves, dwarf and orcs, I am afraid that is your fanboyism over-riding your common sense if you intended that as part of your claim that the setting is as "deep", it really, really is not... But, at least one could argue that there is some significant cultural and thematic difference there. It just isn't going to be readily apparent enough to uninitiated for them to throw down $1000-$2000 and hundreds of hours to constructing and painting a "field viable" army. Honestly, with the buy-in cost point of WarHammer fantasy, it is shocking it didn't die out 20 years ago.

A Deep setting doesn't need a wide variety of different cultures. Exploring the different aspects of a single culture can be as deep or even deeper than a kitchen-sink setting with stereotypical nations. This is not Warhammer Fantasy, however. I love how they take some aspects typical fantasy (Dwarves hold grudges, for example), and deconstruct it to its limit. The problem lies in the assumption because samurais look similar at the surface, there is no depths. Of course they have more similarities between a member of the Lion Clan and Scorpion Clan than between a Skaven and a Bretonnian. But there are layers of differences between the Clans as well. Some subtle, some obvious, and this is the depth of Rokugan. It is possible to explore these differences and similarities and create interesting stories and lore.

8 hours ago, Ryoshun Higoka said:

And shugenja. And monks - I mean, a hypothetical Dragon army would look vastly different from a hypothetical Crane army. And the tattooed monks of the Togashi have some pretty mystical superhuman abilities. So do the Asako family of the Phoenix. And the Unicorn would be mostly mounted. And mostly Battle Maidens. And the Yobanjin ride giant wyrms. And so do some Crab. There are actual Dragons hanging around in the world (and the Dragon Clan had a champion who could turn into one). And the Mantis had the Orochi - all of those are pretty giant monsters and fantastical creatures. Heck, throw in a Destroyers army, and it'd be nothing but giant monsters (and four-armed Iron thingies)! And then you throw the Shadowlands/Spider into the mix, not to mention the Nezumi and Naga... all of these hypothetical miniatures would have much more differentiation than a simple paint-job. I mean, I think I understand your point, but I think it could use a little more exploration - don't limit yourself to "only samurai", because then you're leaving out a lot of what makes L5R fun! If I'm misunderstanding you, please let me know.

Your point about most western tabletop battle games being Tolkein-derived is well taken, however. And since it's been done - one could even say "over-done" - wouldn't there be a market for something new and different? There are tons of miniatures games based off of different IPs out there - steampunk, horror, superhero, elves/dwarves/knights - I for one would really enjoy a different, eastern-inspired game! Is there one out there? Because if there is, I need to get on that...

Well, I don't know how many shugenja or monks would be fielded in a standard army. Honestly, what you are talking about here is that some of the clans would field different special forces in addition to having pretty identical cores. But if we were talking in terms of REPLACING WarHammer Fantasy Battle-- again, it could basically all be considered a single faction in that game. It would just be a matter of which "Special" and "Rare" units you chose. The clans really have more similarity than one would expect from two different Space Marine chapters. It just does not have the same wide-target mass audience appeal because it simply does not functionally offer the same level of diversity. There really isn't as much you can do with it.

Sure, if you INSIST on tossing in Nezumi, Naga and Destroyers, maybe you could expand it to the point of having enough diversity that those who are not interested in samurai can still find something for them in the game. As much as you might enjoy the game, with something like a model game-- particularly if you are going to insist players buy a large stock to even start-- it isn't all about you. It is about the market. And unless there are a significant number of people interested in it, the company will not sell enough models to pay the costs of design, casting, marketing and merchandising of such models.

7 hours ago, Tetsuhiko said:

On the top of my head?

One of the biggest battle of all time. Khan's Defiance. Chagatai brings his army through teleportation at the gates of Toshi Ranbo, breaks the wall with his Mantis allies, kills Kaneka in a duel, forces the Empress to commit suicide and then has to retreat because his troops are too tired and reinforcements (the Phoenix) managed to thwart his plan. The guy succeeded at everything by himself, but his army failed him.

Battle of the White Stag. Garen Hawkthorne leads an army of gaijins armed with guns. He killed the Empress and the Lion Clan Champion, but had to retreat because the defenders were enraged by the death of Hantei Yugozohime and overrun them.

I can search for others example in the wiki as well. Armies vs armies are very frequent in L5R. Most of the conflicts are about ji-samurais fighting one another, with a few guest appearances from named samurais. The written stories, however, are about samurais, because it's better storytelling.

There is more than one type of fantasy, but since you specifically mentionned Tolkien, let's go with medieval fantasy, both high and low.

Narnia, A Song of Fire and Ice, Diablo, Conan, Zelda

That's more than practically none, and I only kept almost everyone knows. I can name a lot more obscure ones.

You are comparing apples and oranges. I'm not a WHFB player, so I might get some details wrong, but while I do agree all the armies look and probably play differently, you cannot say all factions in a L5R mini game will be the same just because they are all samurais and look the same apart from color differences. All it takes is to design the armies intelligently.

Unicorn Clan: Heavy use a cavalry and ranged attacks, as well as animals. An Unicorn army is all about controlling the battlefield, mobility and making sure your forces are away from the danger. Sure, you have purple samurai, but they move slightly farther than other samurais, and you have horses, dogs and teleporting shugenjas...

Crab Clan: Big heavy units. Hit hard, take a whole lot of damage before going down. You can have ranged support through siege engines, extremely dangerous at a distance, completly useless in melee (Good thing you keep a whole Berserker unit ready in casse survives pierces the barrage)

Scorpion Clan: Ninjas! Kill them before they see you, or before they have time to act after they see you.

Mantis Clan: Rely heavily on independent characters. Other armies have multiple units with 5 to 10 guys in each, you field 3 Yoritomo Bushi, 2 Moshi Shugenja and a handful of overpowered Tsuruchi archers. They are tough, they are powerful, but a few bad rolls and you lose half your figthing forces.

All samurais, almost no non-human characters (and the exceptions are animals or man-made machines), and you have a wide diversity of playstyle and units.

A Deep setting doesn't need a wide variety of different cultures. Exploring the different aspects of a single culture can be as deep or even deeper than a kitchen-sink setting with stereotypical nations. This is not Warhammer Fantasy, however. I love how they take some aspects typical fantasy (Dwarves hold grudges, for example), and deconstruct it to its limit. The problem lies in the assumption because samurais look similar at the surface, there is no depths. Of course they have more similarities between a member of the Lion Clan and Scorpion Clan than between a Skaven and a Bretonnian. But there are layers of differences between the Clans as well. Some subtle, some obvious, and this is the depth of Rokugan. It is possible to explore these differences and similarities and create interesting stories and lore.

I would say the two examples you cite are both those of armies being used as plot devices. As in, rather than an army, you could have used an act of god or a severe storm or any other barrier that stops a personality from achieving its goals. The named characters were not wiped out by the nameless, faceless hordes. In fact, in neither case was their army wiped out leaving the rudderless. All the reinforcements did was prevent them from achieving total victory by capturing the capital.

But, I think you ultimately got it right-- L5R stories are told on a personal level, not on an army level. Thus, while can posit that something like army vs. army is occurring, the really important action is generally between personalities. A Skirmish squad vs squad game is thus hardly unfitting for L5R. It really isn't a "whole legions or nothing at all" thing. All I am trying to critique really is what could actually be sold to a wide audience.

Your examples of fantasy worlds without elves and orcs and such... Did you realize that the vast majority of those you listed come from self-contained single-player video games that follow a single protagonist? In terms of a world where there are many different factions, all of which have their own protagonists that see the others as antagonists... I am sure you can come up with something, but, it just doesn't flow as nicely. Furthermore, when you have such a thing, the factions don't tend to be the same culture following the same tenets using the same equipment and armament and so on.... it really would be tough to try to create interesting models for all 10 Clans, much less to make dozens of interesting models so one can have a 100+ model army based on that faction.

But if there only needs to be 5-10 unique models for faction that are designed to work together, that seems eminently doable to me.

And it really is worth questioning precisely how different you could even make the rules for each faction. Even within the RPG, all Clan samurai generally end up being far more similar than they are different. You compare a game where most everything is going to be a standard human with a sword and a bow to that to a setting where your models could be wolves, riflemen, demons, ogres, vampires, treants, gargoyles, ratmen, goblins, etc.... there really isn't all that in terms of options or depth of gameplay you can put on offer.

At least not in a way that is going to inspire the same wide base of customers to pick it up and try it out.

Good morning:

Its early here and I found this post and wanted to jump in. I do know of a small samurai mini game you may like.

If you are looking for a small skirmish level samurai miniature game, I think you will love Osprey Publishing's Ronin. Its is very easy to play, fun, and the figures are available, high quality and can be purchased from overseas and are top quality from a dedicated minis company, look at North Star in England. The Osprey rule set is cheap so I would encourage you to consider buying it:

https://ospreypublishing.com/ronin-skirmish-wargames-in-the-age-of-the-samurai (I am just a fan of both games and I have no interest other than sharing in the conversation)

You could even run a lot of the L5R skirmishes through Ronin. So take a peak at it, and I am sure you will be pleased.

As for full size army, or company level games I would disagree. Sadly, my experience with the decrease in popularity in miniature games leads me to believe while the idea (assuming that is what you mean - army level gaming) sounds nice, its is not likely to catch on. I say this because in my experience miniature games other than Warhammer, Flames of War are not all that popular any more...at least not in the US. Napolian wars, etc, full size army battles has a massive history, but I cannot see a 15mm samurai game taking off. Although I would love it. However, I am sure there are rules out there and the minis may be hard to get.

Like many of you I look forward to seeing what they do with the game, but I think the RPG is dying. I hope I am wrong as I think its one of the more attractive RPGs out there. But sadly nobody in my area plays it.

Personally, for the RPG, I would like them to keep it as it is and republish the books as they are unavailable everywhere.

This is just my opinion, and hope it add to the conversation. Best of luck to your all and enjoy gaming.

19 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

L5R has... samurai. Just samurai. No fantastical creatures, no giant monsters, no people with mystical superhuman abilities.... not much outside the shadowlands anyway. Just... rainbow colored samurai.

I totally miss that one. So L5R only has samurai?

I'll name a few samurai then: Nezumi, Naga, Zokujin, Kenku, Troll, Ningyu, Kitsu, Kitsune, Gaki, Oni, the Nothing, bakemono, Ogre, Orochi, Kumo, Tsuno (by default, they weren't corrupted by the Shadowland), Shugenja, Monk, Bloodspeakers and many more. Of course, I'm not telling that all of these should be thrown in the game for the sake of being thrown in. The main objectif is basically saying: "Are we looking at the same setting?" Unless you deny everything else than "Bushi and Courtier", I think that I've named fairly common stuffs in the L5R universe that are fantastical creatures, giant monsters and people with mystical superhuman abilities that aren't all just included in the shadowland.

It all depends on how FFG builds the storylines for how each Great Clan will look like. And I do understand if they take that direction, it won't be for everyone. On a side note, I never said it was it was a direction that "FFG TOTALLY HAS DO TAKE!!!!1111oneoneone", I've just said it's a possible thing to do. Create diversities between each clans, that's all it take. Tetsuhiko has some good start.

9 hours ago, Tetsuhiko said:

Unicorn Clan: Heavy use a cavalry and ranged attacks, as well as animals. An Unicorn army is all about controlling the battlefield, mobility and making sure your forces are away from the danger. Sure, you have purple samurai, but they move slightly farther than other samurais, and you have horses, dogs and teleporting shugenjas...

Crab Clan: Big heavy units. Hit hard, take a whole lot of damage before going down. You can have ranged support through siege engines, extremely dangerous at a distance, completly useless in melee (Good thing you keep a whole Berserker unit ready in casse survives pierces the barrage)

Scorpion Clan: Ninjas! Kill them before they see you, or before they have time to act after they see you.

Mantis Clan: Rely heavily on independent characters. Other armies have multiple units with 5 to 10 guys in each, you field 3 Yoritomo Bushi, 2 Moshi Shugenja and a handful of overpowered Tsuruchi archers. They are tough, they are powerful, but a few bad rolls and you lose half your figthing forces.

I'll add more just for the sake of it.

Dragon: Mirumoto Bushi and Monks are already a big differences right here. Supported with Dragon's Flame archers. Some Mirumoto could comes from the Mirumoto Mountaineers which could negate mouvement penalties from terrain. The Tamori could also use some of their alchemy to create potions which could be given to any hero or unit champion (written in the army list before the deployment)

Lion: Lots of spearmen supporting the Akodo Elite Guard while their Deathseekers and Lion's Pride are hard-hitting the enemy. Add up a few Beastmasters with their war lion and some Kitsu summoning some ancestor spirits to help them on the battlefield. (I'll link this before you say that I'm imagining stuffs https://imperialassembly.com/oracle/#cardid=11750,#hashid=b0a8d5539a28c071fd2e541b77cc6789,#cardcount=2 )

Then outside of the Clans, you could add some other playable races based on FFG stories. Just like the Chaos in WHF, I think that the Shadowlands should be split in several armies. For example: Ogres and Bakemono together, Maho-Tsukai and Losts together (with Dark Moto), Bloodspeakers with undead army. All of those, supported with Oni of all kind.

I still think it's possible. Will they do it? That's a totally different question and it's not me to say it. But Runewars isn't a skirmish game and it is advertised as, and I'll quote:

Quote

Now, you can take your place among those hallowed captains with Runewars Miniatures Game, a miniatures game of tactical, rank-and-file warfare, set in the realm of Terrinoth!

Will I jump in if they do it? Probably, but I doubt it will be done so, I don't expect anything. However, I can see the possibility being done. It is, however, really risky, that I will not deny, since it's a really niche market.

But for sure, I think they should, after L5R LCG, work on L5R RPG before anything else, then some board game. And maybe, by the time they start thinking about going in that direction, they could associate themselves with Creative Assembly and create: L5R Total War. They did something really amazing with Warhammer Total War, and when you see Rome Total War or Shogun Total War, it's really fitting.

That being said, the idea of this thread is about: "What games that could be great to be done with L5R banner?" and not: "What FFG should absolutely create?" So that's why I backed the idea of sndwirks of an army vs army games. Because it is something doable with the setting. In fact, a lot of FFG boardgame can be reskin with L5R banner.

29 minutes ago, EmpireErik said:

If you are looking for a small skirmish level samurai miniature game, I think you will love Osprey Publishing's Ronin.

I'll check it out! Thanks!

2 hours ago, Crawd said:

I totally miss that one. So L5R only has samurai?

I'll name a few samurai then: Nezumi, Naga, Zokujin, Kenku, Troll, Ningyu, Kitsu, Kitsune, Gaki, Oni, the Nothing, bakemono, Ogre, Orochi, Kumo, Tsuno (by default, they weren't corrupted by the Shadowland), Shugenja, Monk, Bloodspeakers and many more. Of course, I'm not telling that all of these should be thrown in the game for the sake of being thrown in. The main objectif is basically saying: "Are we looking at the same setting?" Unless you deny everything else than "Bushi and Courtier", I think that I've named fairly common stuffs in the L5R universe that are fantastical creatures, giant monsters and people with mystical superhuman abilities that aren't all just included in the shadowland.

I said not much out of the shadowlands and..... you list a bunch of random shadowlands monsters. "Shadowlands" is all of 1 faction and probably would be outside the "main 5" if Spider Clan is still a thing.

The Nezumi were erased from all of existence. The Naga were mostly killed off and the remainder went back to sleep for a thousand years. The Zokujin are 90% corrupted and the remainder are too few to even register. Kenku have apparently never been numerous, they are rare seen at all. Same goes with the Kitsune. The Kitsu/Tsuno are existinct... and the only other thing you listed that isn't Shadowlands is the Ningyou... and I am not sure how exactly you expect them to participate in a non-naval battle.

I am talking only about what you would feasibly have options to field if you were playing the "Crane Clan Army" or the "Scorpion Clan Army" or the "Crab Clan Army" or the "Lion Clan Army". Sure, if you streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch things then you can come up with something wild and random that was mentioned all of 3 or 4 times on some random cards in some random sets where you are fielding a whole army and the overwhelming bulk of it won't be "color coded samurai armed with swords. And maybe bows.... and possibly spears, but spears intentionally suck in this setting so why would you?"

Beyond that, if you want to get super detailed about their special school or their fighting style and differentiate them in ways that are going to matter a whole lot more on an individual level rather than huge blocks of troops smashing into each other.... that's why you do a skirmish game. Particularly if your entire argument is "that neat thing that they used all of once in all of their battles throughout history".

This is all on the basis of WarHammer Fantasy going majorly south. What you fail to understand is WHY WarHammer Fantasy went south. Their models sold really well during the 90s, but with the increasing technology improving computer games they just could not possibly compete-- not on price point or entertainment value. Furthermore, as cost rose fewer and fewer people would actually join the game and so the company was selling fewer and fewer models. Moreover, those who had been in the game for a long time already had all the models they needed and so they weren't buying so much any more.

At a certain point, they realized it only made sense to design and cast and produce any single model if as many people as possible were going to actually purchase it. This means that running 20 different product lines each with unique models that, on average, only 5% of the audience was actually buying didn't make any sense. That is why they effectively killed off army after army, those they didn't just stop making models for all together instead they just produced the old designs more or less as they were ordered.

With 40K, they found a decent solution. You just have half your armies use the same models. Therefore, any sort of "Space Marine" thing they turn out can pretty much be sold to the 70% of their audience playing one of the various color coded space marine factions. Even if the box said "Space Wolves" or "Black Templars", you could just paint them differently and use them as "Blood Angels" or "Imperial Fists".... and, of course, the vehicles... well, those you can use regardless of whether you are one of the dozen Space Marines or Imperial Guards or Orks.

The thing is, that really wasn't an option with WarHammer Fantasy Battle. If they wanted to make sales and keep their company afloat, they needed to scrap the whole thing, introduce something in its place and build it in such a way that any given player can start the game without needing having to build and paint a hundred models and can feasibly field half the models that are put out as part of their army. This way anything they make can be sold to 50% of their player base instead of 5% and it isn't impossible to get started. It is also designed to get those who had bought all their models 20 years ago and hadn't purchased much of anything since to actually purchase again.

RuneWars gives you a scope of what is possible. And, really... its only possible for them because it is a wargame with only 2 factions. Which means L5R is flat out impossible to tackle, 10 is way, WAY too many established factions to put out individual models for all at once. Maybe if you discluded some of the clans or had some way to break them cleanly down the center so that half would be alliance A and half would be alliance B... or if it was centrally themed as "the Empire vs. the Shadowlands" and then just accepted that any given clan's presence would just boil down to a couple minis out of the set.

This my last word on the subject. Your demands are unrealistic. Everything you have put out there is demanding the company bankrupt itself by building a game with no market in such a way that it cannot possibly ever hope to build or gain a market. You demand 30 different factions so you can squeeze in random nonsense like Tsuno and Zokujin-- as if anywhere near enough people would ever buy such models for anyone to turn a profit on doing such a thing. You demand they create the game so that the starting cost is insurmountable for any new player. And you demand they create it all in a way that... I am confident that if it was made in such a way even you who is making these demands would not purchase it and would not play it.

It is clear you are unwilling or unable to be reasonable about what could feasibly be created. And by "feasibly created", I don't mean "if you had a billion dollars to burn, what you could force to be churned out as a 1-off oddity" but I mean feasibly made into a product that people would buy and go out onto the market and actually make a profit.

Could there be a successful L5R game involving large army battles? Sure. But such a thing wouldn't be a model game. You could do it as a board game. You could do it as a video game in the vein of the Total War series. But not a model game.

No matter how much you demand it, no matter how much you detail it, even if you got everyone else on these boards to agree with you... the people running FFG are not going to be dumb enough to create the game in such a surefire failure manner. So, you know what... go ahead... sky is the limit... talk yourself into hyperbolic fantasies to the point that you could never be happy or satisfied with any product that actually gets turned out. Because I have already expended too much energy in trying to bring you back down to making far more realistic and feasible demands.

And since you are just shouting into the wind and I can trust that no one is going to heed your lunacy and kill the IP and the company on some doomed misventure, go ahead and just keep shouting into the wind.

And if you actually disagree and think one can actually make a profit on trying to launch a competing product to WarHammer fantasy using something akin to L5R... go ahead and make it yourself. Most of the creature ideas are not copyrighted and neither is the idea of color-coded samurai clans with animal avatars. If you think there is so much money to be made in creating such a product, you go off-- go take out a bank loan-- and do it yourself. Go on. Put your money where your mouth is and prove me wrong by going and getting yourself rich. Surely nothing could possibly go wrong!

4 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

I said not much out of the shadowlands and..... you list a bunch of random shadowlands monsters. "Shadowlands" is all of 1 faction and probably would be outside the "main 5" if Spider Clan is still a thing.

i'm not gonna bother reading most of your post, cause i haven't followed the whole thread, except to point how that this line is completely wrong. of the things listed (Nezumi, Naga, Zokujin, Kenku, Troll, Ningyu, Kitsu, Kitsune, Gaki, Oni, the Nothing, bakemono, Ogre, Orochi, Kumo, Tsuno (by default, they weren't corrupted by the Shadowland), Shugenja, Monk, Bloodspeakers) only Oni and the bakemono are shadowlands. Trolls and Ogres are natives to Rokugan, typically unaligned, who sometimes have shadowlands alignment, sometimes don't. Tsuno can't go either way, as pointed out. Bloodspeakers are as often as not phoenix as shadowlands, and blood magic is the OG magic of Rokugan, in point of fact. The Zokujin worked with the dragon, the Kenku, being fond of the sword often tutored the Crane. The Zokujin, contrary to your assessment, never had the taint. i mean, i can keep going, but you get the point.

like i said, i didn't read the rest of your rant, but if it rests on your first paragraph, you're gonna need to try again, because rokugan is FULL of supernatural races and things, and only a minority of them are shadowlands controlled. The shadowlands just make the best use of them because the rokugani are also a little racist.

...can we just agree with the statements that "Launching a miniatures game, no matter the IP, is expensive and risky" and "A miniatures game based in the L5R IP, while not a guaranteed hit, would be really neat"? Can we do that? Or do we really need to play point-counterpoint over something that does not exist and has no plans (at least none known to the public) to exist? Can we allow ourselves to just celebrate this world we love and not get caught up in dragging each others' ideas down?

This miniatures discussion started as a pie-in-the-sky "wouldn't it be neat if..." discussion, not a formal business proposal or economic theory thesis. I agree that an intellectual property like L5R would lend itself well to a miniatures game, and I agree that the expense of a miniatures game would likely be prohibitive, but I love the idea. Heck, I'm about to get unfettered access (for "testing purposes") to a 3D printer - I might just make up my own!

Be gentle to the ideas of others, guys. We're all one community here. And, ultimately, it doesn't matter who is "right" or "wrong" about a game/topic/use of the L5R IP that doesn't exist. Let's just follow rule #1 of the civil discourse bylaws and agree to be groovy to each other.

*hopping down from soapbox before the tomatoes start flying*

1 hour ago, Ryoshun Higoka said:

...can we just agree with the statements that "Launching a miniatures game, no matter the IP, is expensive and risky" and "A miniatures game based in the L5R IP, while not a guaranteed hit, would be really neat"? Can we do that? Or do we really need to play point-counterpoint over something that does not exist and has no plans (at least none known to the public) to exist? Can we allow ourselves to just celebrate this world we love and not get caught up in dragging each others' ideas down?

This miniatures discussion started as a pie-in-the-sky "wouldn't it be neat if..." discussion, not a formal business proposal or economic theory thesis. I agree that an intellectual property like L5R would lend itself well to a miniatures game, and I agree that the expense of a miniatures game would likely be prohibitive, but I love the idea. Heck, I'm about to get unfettered access (for "testing purposes") to a 3D printer - I might just make up my own!

Be gentle to the ideas of others, guys. We're all one community here. And, ultimately, it doesn't matter who is "right" or "wrong" about a game/topic/use of the L5R IP that doesn't exist. Let's just follow rule #1 of the civil discourse bylaws and agree to be groovy to each other.

*hopping down from soapbox before the tomatoes start flying*

I'm fresh out of tomatoes; can I throw unopened packets of ketchup instead?

The simple solution is to create L5R armies and make them compatible with the Rune Wars Miniatures Battle System.

For the most part, rank & file troops of spear men, heavy cavalry, footmen, horse archers, shugenja and heavy infantry are about the same across Rokugan.

So, you can make a Clan Champion and a few heroes for Crane, Crab, Dragon, Lion, Phoenix, Scorpion & Unicorn; plug them in with basic troops that functionally makes them different in design and tactics.

For a booster expansion, you can give the Clans an elite troop choice as follows:

1. Crab: Berserkers: lightly armored, high Damage warriors

2. Crane: Duelists: able to issue challenges to eliminate enemy leaders

3. Dragon: Monks: Armed with destructive/protective Kihos

4. Lion: Scouts: highly mobile warriors with Recon Abilities

5. Phoenix: Shugenja: masters of the Five Rings

6. Scorpion: Ninjas: masters of deception & assassination

7. Unicorn: Battle Maidens: Cavalry with Amazonian appeal

Well yeah, the biggest part of Rokugani armies are the ashigaru regiment, right?

3 hours ago, Daner0023 said:

The simple solution is to create L5R armies and make them compatible with the Rune Wars Miniatures Battle System.

For the most part, rank & file troops of spear men, heavy cavalry, footmen, horse archers, shugenja and heavy infantry are about the same across Rokugan.

So, you can make a Clan Champion and a few heroes for Crane, Crab, Dragon, Lion, Phoenix, Scorpion & Unicorn; plug them in with basic troops that functionally makes them different in design and tactics.

For a booster expansion, you can give the Clans an elite troop choice as follows:

1. Crab: Berserkers: lightly armored, high Damage warriors

2. Crane: Duelists: able to issue challenges to eliminate enemy leaders

3. Dragon: Monks: Armed with destructive/protective Kihos

4. Lion: Scouts: highly mobile warriors with Recon Abilities

5. Phoenix: Shugenja: masters of the Five Rings

6. Scorpion: Ninjas: masters of deception & assassination

7. Unicorn: Battle Maidens: Cavalry with Amazonian appeal

Looks like you forgot a couple clans there...

1 hour ago, Sparks Duh said:

Looks like you forgot a couple clans there...

I included the Clans that have a Kami.

I omitted Spider, Mantis, Shadowlands, Ratlings and other races of Rokugan, because when developing a game, you have to draw the line somewhere.

One of those lines would be that all Clans have the same non-elite troops.

Another line to draw would be to limit the number of Clans.

26 minutes ago, Daner0023 said:

I included the Clans that have a Kami.

I omitted Spider, Mantis, Shadowlands, Ratlings and other races of Rokugan, because when developing a game, you have to draw the line somewhere.

One of those lines would be that all Clans have the same non-elite troops.

Another line to draw would be to limit the number of Clans.

Except the Spider have a kami as much as all the other clans you listed.

I'll say that I like the idea of treating the Clans like Space Marines, personally. It would allow them to do a base "Imperial Legion" in a box set against the Shadowlands, and could include heroes from different Clans. I think that is a smart way to start an L5R miniatures game off, with the chance to roll out the clans slowly.

15 minutes ago, Daner0023 said:

I included the Clans that have a Kami.

I omitted Spider, Mantis, Shadowlands, Ratlings and other races of Rokugan, because when developing a game, you have to draw the line somewhere.

One of those lines would be that all Clans have the same non-elite troops.

Another line to draw would be to limit the number of Clans.

In speculation, we don't need to draw any lines at all

That said, Spider's inclusion in a minis game will depend entirely on how FFG decides to handle the storyline. The identity crisis can work in a card game, where cards might only have a shelf life of a couple years (not counting variant formats). Armies in a miniatures game, however, have to have a little more longevity than that. I think that's the biggest challenge to adapting L5R into a miniatures format. GW brands tend to be pretty static, until they decided to actually go through with the end of world they'd been teasing in WFB. It only took something like 30 years of playing through largely the same time period, the same war, with mostly the same factions.