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Crab: Military, Spiritual, Political
Crane: Political, Spiritual, Military
Dragon: Spiritual, Military, Political
Lion: Military, Political, Spiritual
Phoenix: Spiritual, Political, Military
Scorpion: Political, Military, Spiritual
Unicorn: Military, Spiritual, Political

Ahem... You forgot a couple clans there...

12 hours ago, Sparks Duh said:

Ahem... You forgot a couple clans there...

I guess any excuse to get rid of the Mantis or Spider.

24 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

I guess any excuse to get rid of the Mantis or Spider.

i find it oddly comforting that even after the game is sold, moved to a new forum, and changed to an LCG, people still indiscriminately hate the mantis and spider, and think its reasonable that they should be removed from the game, despite their age and popularity.

46 minutes ago, cielago said:

i find it oddly comforting that even after the game is sold, moved to a new forum, and changed to an LCG, people still indiscriminately hate the mantis and spider, and think its reasonable that they should be removed from the game, despite their age and popularity.

The same could go with any other clan, despite their age and popularity.

53 minutes ago, cielago said:

i find it oddly comforting that even after the game is sold, moved to a new forum, and changed to an LCG, people still indiscriminately hate the mantis and spider, and think its reasonable that they should be removed from the game, despite their age and popularity.

This is not surprising. Adversarial, outcast, underdog/ascending: these are all core identities of the spider.

It would almost spoil the fun if you were fully accepted, right?

Theoretically the Mantis, Spider, and Unicorn could all potentially be absent from the game, if FFG chose to set their version at an earlier period in history. I find it more likely, though, that they will adopt a "timeline neutral" approach along the lines of the L5R 4th Edition RPG, similar to what they did with the Star Wars LCG, though on a much grander scale (given that from the time of its release, which took place years prior to the canon reboot, SWLCG has been set specifically during the Galactic Civil War, rather than spanning the entirety of the then-canonical timeline).

I feel such an approach could impact the interactive storyline* in a positive way, as player decisions could have greater ramifications than what have typically been seen in the CCG era, as we see what happens to X Clan a century or so after Y choice was elected for them.

*Any speculation I make about this game has to depend on the interactive story being a given, as IMHO this feature is highly central to the game's identity, on a level exceeding that of the gameplay itself, and I have little interest in speculating on how an L5R LCG might look without this key element.

35 minutes ago, Builder2 said:

Theoretically the Mantis, Spider, and Unicorn could all potentially be absent from the game, if FFG chose to set their version at an earlier period in history.

You're also forgetting Scorpion, if you set the game during Clan Wars when the Scorpion was disbanded or Hidden Emperor when they were banished to the Burning Sands.

You could also argue, immediately post-Clan Wars, that Phoenix wouldn't be a fully playable faction, what with their near self-extermination...

Or that the Dragon, prior to the Clan Wars, should largely be limited to add-a-guy personalities, since they mostly sat up in the mountain waiting for the plot devices to kick in.

The only ones who never really went away/hid/got depleted in some meaningful fashion are the Crane (how can I miss them if they won't GO AWAY?), Lion (ditto), and Crab.

4 hours ago, Builder2 said:

...Any speculation I make about this game has to depend on the interactive story being a given, as IMHO this feature is highly central to the game's identity, on a level exceeding that of the gameplay itself...

This is an interesting point. I've heard more chatter about clans, mechanics, and timeline than anything else. But you're right: one of the more iconic aspects of L5R, sequential to magical samurai, has always been it's interactive story. I could have sworn that the product page alluded to an ongoing commitment to player/story interaction, but I can't seem to find it anymore. Either I remember incorrectly or they've since updated (an infinitely editable platform ).

I would like the Scorpions time in The Burning Sands to be represented. It's something that is never really explored ( i blame the story team ) tens of thousands of soldiers from the Senpet Empire came with the Scorpion when they return to the Empire the clan should have changed to reflect that .

12 hours ago, cielago said:

i find it oddly comforting that even after the game is sold, moved to a new forum, and changed to an LCG, people still indiscriminately hate the mantis and spider, and think its reasonable that they should be removed from the game, despite their age and popularity.

In fairness, Spider's at the heart of a lot of problems with the game. It's not the players' fault, and telling the Spider players to shove off would do nobody any good. That said, one of the first things AEG told the fanbase was that they had plans for how the Spider would integrate that wouldn't make everyone else look like idiots, and then spent ten years stringing us along until eventually shrugging off the notion. Hell, the lead up to Onyx needed Crab, Dragon, and Scorpion (three clans who had no priorities higher than dealing with the Spider) to be caught flatfooted when Setai and Kanpeki had their tiff in court.

I'd go so far as to say this is FFG's biggest hurdle: how do they handle the Spider, while keeping the Spider identity for the Spider fans, without shortchanging everyone else? I don't know that it's possible.

21 hours ago, Kubernes said:

I guess any excuse to get rid of the Mantis or Spider.

AEG tried to get rid of the Mantis in 2015, and look what happened!

On 2/14/2017 at 10:18 PM, Sparks Duh said:

Ahem... You forgot a couple clans there...

Because I don't think there will be room for 9 factions in the starter, and those two will be added later in deluxe expansions.

19 hours ago, Builder2 said:

Theoretically the Mantis, Spider, and Unicorn could all potentially be absent from the game, if FFG chose to set their version at an earlier period in history. I find it more likely, though, that they will adopt a "timeline neutral" approach along the lines of the L5R 4th Edition RPG, similar to what they did with the Star Wars LCG, though on a much grander scale (given that from the time of its release, which took place years prior to the canon reboot, SWLCG has been set specifically during the Galactic Civil War, rather than spanning the entirety of the then-canonical timeline).

I feel such an approach could impact the interactive storyline* in a positive way, as player decisions could have greater ramifications than what have typically been seen in the CCG era, as we see what happens to X Clan a century or so after Y choice was elected for them.

*Any speculation I make about this game has to depend on the interactive story being a given, as IMHO this feature is highly central to the game's identity, on a level exceeding that of the gameplay itself, and I have little interest in speculating on how an L5R LCG might look without this key element.

Haven't they said they will be picking up the story were AEG left off? If they do do that, and they are only going to include 6 clans in the starter - the Dragon would be the logical choice to leave out.

9 hours ago, SirEuain said:

In fairness, Spider's at the heart of a lot of problems with the game. It's not the players' fault, and telling the Spider players to shove off would do nobody any good. That said, one of the first things AEG told the fanbase was that they had plans for how the Spider would integrate that wouldn't make everyone else look like idiots, and then spent ten years stringing us along until eventually shrugging off the notion. Hell, the lead up to Onyx needed Crab, Dragon, and Scorpion (three clans who had no priorities higher than dealing with the Spider) to be caught flatfooted when Setai and Kanpeki had their tiff in court.

I'd go so far as to say this is FFG's biggest hurdle: how do they handle the Spider, while keeping the Spider identity for the Spider fans, without shortchanging everyone else? I don't know that it's possible.

The Spider do indeed, fundamentally violate a lot of the things Rokugan was even about. The idea that the empire made concession after concession to utterly embrace and harbor the very shadow that has been threatening to destroy their empire since the day it was born is more than a little difficult. That there is even a Clan that is straight up antagonistic to all other clans and yet doesn't get conquered and dissolved also flies wholly in the face of rationality.

The Mantis aren't even all that much better. They became a Great Clan by well...

Yoritomo: So, your armies are going to march on the capital to try to stop Fu Leng from delivering the world into the hands of Jigoku for a thousand years.... so now is probably about the time I tell you, either you make us a Great Clan or I stab you all in the back, attack your forces from the rear and help Fu Leng conquer the world.

And past that point? There is hardly a law, regulation or tradition they haven't violated.

Still, the Mantis at least aren't outright reveling in being evil like some sort of Saturday Morning Cartoon villain, dressing all in black and worshiping the devil and intentionally spreading disease across the world to turn people into living zombies like they are some branch of Umbrella Corp. I mean, the Mantis with their acceptance of outsiders and the lack of stupidity when it comes to handling markets and currency could be said to contribute positively to the empire by breaking some of the harmful and destructive taboos.

That's all fine if it is "the Shadowlands"-- i.e. functionally foreign invaders who aim to destroy Rokugan. But not a legitimate clan trying to present themselves as an equal part of this integral whole. As long as it is fundamentally opposed to the very goal of life thriving, it just cannot work as a proper clan. Its best that all clans have their "morally grey" elements so that they can properly come into conflict with one another. Its a totally different thing to just be straight up out and out evil bad guys.

Now, I know that "not all Spiders!" are like that, that some aren't outright "Kekekeke! We will destroy the world and cover it all in darkness and death in the name of hell!!" But well... fundamentally, those who are like that, in fact their very worshiped Kami and founder, father of its very leader-- each having literally become the devil himself-- are like that. So you can't really separate that cleanly out and have them suddenly start behaving like a proper clan.

Really-- to just what degree would you have to totally warp the Spider so they could become a positive influence on the world, actually contribute to successful growth of life on the planet and be at least no more ethically objectionable than the Scorpion or Mantis? What would even be left of the "Spider Clan" if they were required to act like a responsible and productive Great Clan?

49 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

Because I don't think there will be room for 9 factions in the starter, and those two will be added later in deluxe expansions.

I refuse to believe this to be an argument since there is already an established, well popular game in AGoT that came out with 8 factions in the core. So the argument about not being able to pack in 9 factions is ridiculous at best. Sorry.

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The Spider do indeed, fundamentally violate a lot of the things Rokugan was even about. The idea that the empire made concession after concession to utterly embrace and harbor the very shadow that has been threatening to destroy their empire since the day it was born is more than a little difficult. That there is even a Clan that is straight up antagonistic to all other clans and yet doesn't get conquered and dissolved also flies wholly in the face of rationality.

Still, the Mantis at least aren't outright reveling in being evil like some sort of Saturday Morning Cartoon villain, dressing all in black and worshiping the devil and intentionally spreading disease across the world to turn people into living zombies like they are some branch of Umbrella Corp. I mean, the Mantis with their acceptance of outsiders and the lack of stupidity when it comes to handling markets and currency could be said to contribute positively to the empire by breaking some of the harmful and destructive taboos.

That's all fine if it is "the Shadowlands"-- i.e. functionally foreign invaders who aim to destroy Rokugan. But not a legitimate clan trying to present themselves as an equal part of this integral whole. As long as it is fundamentally opposed to the very goal of life thriving, it just cannot work as a proper clan. Its best that all clans have their "morally grey" elements so that they can properly come into conflict with one another. Its a totally different thing to just be straight up out and out evil bad guys.

Now, I know that "not all Spiders!" are like that, that some aren't outright "Kekekeke! We will destroy the world and cover it all in darkness and death in the name of hell!!" But well... fundamentally, those who are like that, in fact their very worshiped Kami and founder, father of its very leader-- each having literally become the devil himself-- are like that. So you can't really separate that cleanly out and have them suddenly start behaving like a proper clan.

Really-- to just what degree would you have to totally warp the Spider so they could become a positive influence on the world, actually contribute to successful growth of life on the planet and be at least no more ethically objectionable than the Scorpion or Mantis? What would even be left of the "Spider Clan" if they were required to act like a responsible and productive Great Clan?

Really, none of that matters. The spider became a great clan because the divine Empress said so. The Empress' word is law. Other clans have to accept that as law. The celestial heavens speak through her and if anyone defies the word of the heavens, then they don't belong in the empire.

How about instead of whining about the spider being a great clan, try to convert them in to what you think they should be in the empire. You know... it's a challenge for sure, but it's better storytelling than 'whaaaaa... the spider don't belong... whaaaaa'. I think all the whining about spider being a great clan instead of actively trying to work with them is what lead to the spider taking over the empire. Everyone wanted easy, but if you took the harder path, things could have been different. But nope... all we got were people just whining all the **** time.

18 minutes ago, Sparks Duh said:

How about instead of whining about the spider being a great clan, try to convert them in to what you think they should be in the empire. You know... it's a challenge for sure, but it's better storytelling than 'whaaaaa... the spider don't belong... whaaaaa'. I think all the whining about spider being a great clan instead of actively trying to work with them is what lead to the spider taking over the empire. Everyone wanted easy, but if you took the harder path, things could have been different. But nope... all we got were people just whining all the **** time.

I stand by the fact that the Spider Clan delegation of Winter Court IV proved that you CAN be the Spider Clan without being mustache-twirling, Taint-loving, Maho-guzzling monsters. Yes, we had those in our Clan. And when the Crab Clan wanted to go to war with us over this? We actually went "GOOD! The Crab Clan will kill that which is weak in our Clan, we will kill that which is weak in their Clan, and the end result will be a stronger Rokugan!"

The real challenge is that it has to be either the Scorpion Clan or the Spider Clan holding the Villain ball. It cannot be effectively shared by both Clans, and without the Villain ball? The Scorpion Clan are straight anti-heroes. They stop being the Crane Clan without morals, and start become the Crab Clan with classiness.

Personally, however, I have come more and more around to the line of thinking that Fantasy Flight Games might honestly be best off with a fresh start. Start the LCG in the Pre-Scorpion Clan Coup era, where the 1st Edition RPG was set. It has the most open world for smaller stories, and yet still has its strong meta-plot behind it. Make your first story arc about the Scorpion Clan Coup. End it with the death of Shoju and the shaming of Toturi. This allows you to continue the story into the Clan Wars, and show the descent of the Crab Clan and the Phoenix Clan in real time, as well as the war in the Crane Clan lands. The Battle of Beiden Pass, the Assault of Otosan Uchi, the Rise of the Demon Emperor, the Return of Hoturi, the Burning of Kyuden Isawa, and the lead up to the Second Day of Thunder all serve as great narrative set pieces.

You just have to leave room in these stories for player influence. Because, seriously, aside from Toturi the Black, who would have made a better Emperor after the Second Day of Thunder?

59 minutes ago, Sparks Duh said:

Really, none of that matters. The spider became a great clan because the divine Empress said so. The Empress' word is law. Other clans have to accept that as law. The celestial heavens speak through her and if anyone defies the word of the heavens, then they don't belong in the empire.

How about instead of whining about the spider being a great clan, try to convert them in to what you think they should be in the empire. You know... it's a challenge for sure, but it's better storytelling than 'whaaaaa... the spider don't belong... whaaaaa'. I think all the whining about spider being a great clan instead of actively trying to work with them is what lead to the spider taking over the empire. Everyone wanted easy, but if you took the harder path, things could have been different. But nope... all we got were people just whining all the **** time.

Wow... you... actually don't comprehend the difference between "reality" and "fiction", do you. I mean, that statement right there could only have been made by someone who doesn't comprehend real life or how fiction comes into existence. Let me blow your mind on something here...

The Spider became a minor clan and then a great clan....

Because dishonor as a functional victory condition cannot work if an entire faction is straight-up immune to it. Yet it would only make sense for dishonor to work against Shadowlands if well... proving Shadowlands lacked honor and deserved to have the imperial legion descend on them meant something. Of, you know, they had to alter Shadowlands so that they were some group whose existence relied on having the approval of others.

And so the story team arranged the story in such a way that they should shoe-in this bad angle by having everyone act wildly out of character, made their Mary Sue character win at absolutely everything and handed him the keys of the universe by forcing events to all line up perfectly and had everyone else act stupid in order to force this bad plot development that in no way fell in lne with everything that had happened before. And in doing so they made them a Great Clan because well... you can't have a real faction that doesn't hold that status.

You see, fiction.... fiction is created by these things called "writers". They are humans, not much different than me... probably not a whole lot different from you either. They use something called "imaginationation" and then sit down and type words into a computer. These words form a story. None of the events of the story happened except as part of the imagination of the person who wrote it... and the imagination of those who read it afterwards. There are no real people, there are no real events.

Simply because some writer wrote that the words that the utterly nonsense approval of the Spider Clan's increasing acceptance in the empire came from the entirely imaginary character of "Empress Iweko" who had the entirely imagination status of being "Celestially Blessed" or whatever it was... in terms of it being necessary that people continue that as being canon, it matters precisely as much as if they had written that the approval all came from "Tanaka Takana the Phoenix Clan sewer cleaner"

Oh, by the way.... Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, and Frankenstein's Monster are all entirely imaginary too. You should go look it up on wikipedia or something, I imagine you'll probably be in mourning for a while after hearing that.

As for the idea that the Spider gained power BECAUSE other clans were fighting against them and somehow wouldn't have gained power if others had just given into the evil zombie army and totally cooperated with them in snuffing out all life on the planet?.... Seriously, how high are you?

"Only reason Palpatine became Emperor is that the Jedi did not embrace the Sith and assist them in their goals of galactic conquest."
"You know, if more Russians had just helped in the Bolshevik revolution instead of fighting it, the Soviet Union never would have formed."
"You know, if only more states had joined the Confederacy, America's institution of slavery and citizenship for nonwhites so would have come faster."
"If more people had just joined the Nazi party and assisted them in their goals, then they never would have taken over the country and the holocaust never would have happened."

Seriously, you have some ultra weird warped view of reality. And calling out bad writing when people see it is not "whining". I am sure there are bad plot developments in fiction (presuming you now understand that concept after I have explained it) that you also cite as being bad. I am sure you are critical of media. And I doubt you define your own critique of such things are "whining" even though it is stated just as strongly and in the exact same manner as any "whining" as you call it, regarding the developments surrounding the Spider Clan. It is simply that for some weird reason you seem to think you somehow benefit from the story of the Spider Clan. Which you really don't-- because no matter how it works out, I can guarantee it is an unwelcome compromise of what you actually want.

On one hand you have world-conquering black robed demon zombies who want to blot out the sun, unleash hell on earth, wipe out all sign of human life and have monsters wandering the surface of the earth for all times.
On the other hand you have the organization, expansion and development of a living, functioning human civilization in a hostile and dangerous world.

The first is like ultimate dark one-dimensional villain goals.
The second is what a clan absolutely by definition has to be.

They are mutually exclusive. You cannot have a "Shadowlands Great Clan of Rokugan"-- one half of it fundamentally undermines the other half and what you are left with a muddled mess running around in a circle and a giant question mark over why everyone else doesn't put it out of all of their miseries... A question mark that cannot be resolved until they do precisely that.

There is no good resolution to this either. Like how could one ever have a group who is going to get away with using necromancy, blood magic, demon summoning, monster training, soul stealing, body horror.... and at the same time be subject to being judged on their honor and cast down if they violate it... when literally all of those things they are defined by are dishonorable and should any other clan engaged in, they would immediately be cast down. That just doesn't work-- not in the slightest. The very mechanic of "you don't lose honor for doing evil demon stuff" is demonstrable in just how crap this whole concept is-- how the hell are you going to have a "Great Clan" that has exclusive permission to destroy the empire?

Okay, but... if they were to just give up all that stuff and be subject to the same rules a Great Clan... hell, even a Minor Clan... even a Ronin Group.. is required to follow? Well, at that point you wash the Spider Clan so entirely of basically every defining element that... what are you even left with?

Perhaps... just as a thought... you could, perhaps, have a group that stakes out its claim in the Shadowlands and organizes itself as a clan and presents itself as a clan... But you'd run straight into the brick wall that they wouldn't be welcomed to participate in the daily activities clans are welcome to participate in. Nor would it be conceivable that they would be subject to being disgraced or dishonored-- for how could they lose any more honor than already being what they are?

It is just an utterly impossible thing to resolve given the mechanics of the old card game. But just because there isn't a way it could be done better, doesn't mean the way it was done wasn't just out-and-out bad writing and worth every bit of criticism. Maybe with the new mechanics of the new card game there is a better way of handling it.

1 hour ago, Sparks Duh said:

I refuse to believe this to be an argument since there is already an established, well popular game in AGoT that came out with 8 factions in the core. So the argument about not being able to pack in 9 factions is ridiculous at best. Sorry.

Really, none of that matters. The spider became a great clan because the divine Empress said so. The Empress' word is law. Other clans have to accept that as law. The celestial heavens speak through her and if anyone defies the word of the heavens, then they don't belong in the empire.

How about instead of whining about the spider being a great clan, try to convert them in to what you think they should be in the empire. You know... it's a challenge for sure, but it's better storytelling than 'whaaaaa... the spider don't belong... whaaaaa'. I think all the whining about spider being a great clan instead of actively trying to work with them is what lead to the spider taking over the empire. Everyone wanted easy, but if you took the harder path, things could have been different. But nope... all we got were people just whining all the **** time.

GoT uses 1 deck, L5R uses two. L5R are a greater varity in card types then GoT. These eat up space in the starter. As I've also said before, holding 2 or even 3 clans back for their deluxe editions is good marketing. Half your first year and half of big, deluxe additions already planned out is a strong way build on the re-release of the game.

Honestly, I'm not sure if the Spider still area great clan. Kanpeki believes the deal struck between his father and Iweko was broken. Spider samurai have been tainted again and become Lost. the Chuda have rejoined the clan. They went to war with the other clans, attempted to murder the Emperor and the Imperial family etc... I don't believe they were offically.....removed as a great clan, but once they are tossed out and (I assume) the Iweko family take the throne again, I dunno if they'll remain in that mix.

57 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

The real challenge is that it has to be either the Scorpion Clan or the Spider Clan holding the Villain ball. It cannot be effectively shared by both Clans, and without the Villain ball?

Y'know, I think it can be, we just need to have two kinds of villains. Like, we can have one type of villain, the decadent nihilist: this guy has no higher purpose other than to sow chaos, watch the world burn, and dance over the ashes, and no higher reason other than he enjoys others' suffering - he is psychopathic, unpredictable, and subversive (obviously, as he has no greater ideal to stand up for). Then we can have the other type of villain, the dark paladin: this guy is powered by a sinister self-righteousness, and marches toward his grand objective (usually power) with grim determination, mercilessly crushing not only those who stray in his path but also anyone who can't meet his high standards - he is spiteful, ruthless, and vicious.

This can really show a moral dilemma of which one is worse: what the first one wants is bad, but how he works towards this is not necessarily so; while what the second one wants might not be bad, but how he wants to achieve his goal is (Hida Kisada anyone?).

How I would fix the Spider Clan goes back to the end of Goddesses IV. Jigoku should have taken Daigotsu and eaten him as a sort of inverted Messiah, where he would be chewed/digested/tortured forever for undermining Jigoku's new champion and as penance for the Spider Clan's ‘failure’ (read: being really helpful to Rokugan). Additionally, every Daigotsu will be born with a minor mark of Jigoku (not taint, but a potential for it to spontaneously manifest) which will not grow as long as they faithfully serve the Emperor. Fu Leng is not killed, but is left in Ningen-do, possibly joining the Order of the Spider. Everything else stays roughly the same, including exile to the Colonies for the already tainted.

There's a demand for a cult of penitents in Rokugan, right?

Edit: “Daigotsu is de- psych! He's literally a god now he wrestled hell into submission!!!!!!!!!!!” was a real jump-the-shark moment for me, personally.

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1 hour ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

More whining.

I can understand your complaints. I just don't see the need for all the excess whining, tbh.

It's just a story. Deal with it or don't. Just stop whining about it all the time.

Seriously, I never wanted the spider to be a great clan, but it kept getting pushed on us from the story team. I didn't think it made sense either, but it is what it is. The Spider were made a great clan. Learn to deal with it, bro.

i have a theory. its like how if you click the first link on any wikipedia article, and keep doing so, you'll eventually end up at philosophy, i think if people keep posting in any l5r thread long enough, they'll eventually end up arguing about the spider.

9 minutes ago, Sparks Duh said:

I can understand your complaints. I just don't see the need for all the excess whining, tbh.

It's just a story. Deal with it or don't. Just stop whining about it all the time.

Seriously, I never wanted the spider to be a great clan, but it kept getting pushed on us from the story team. I didn't think it made sense either, but it is what it is. The Spider were made a great clan. Learn to deal with it, bro.

Then why are you making an appeal to authority... a FICTIONAL authority no less to justify it?

"Empress Iweko said..." she said whatever stupid thing the writers at the time wanted her to say, it doesn't justify anything.

The Spider Clan and Daigotsu in general were major factors in the decline of the game-- in that, people who would have kept playing the game abandoned it over those sorts of things.

If the game is going to be relaunched and all the mechanics are going to be different, then a new publisher is free to ignore any "story developments" that are detrimental to making an appealing game. The state the story and game were in by the time Onyx came about clearly was not the sort of state where the number of people interested in continuing to play it could support the game. AEG would not have bailed on their only profitable franchise if it was still immensely profitable.

And if you have things that really, REALLY muddy the waters instead of making a crisp, clean, properly defined game, then it is best to wash those away. Reboot. "New Universe".

I mean, really-- I don't see any good in relaunching it exactly in the state it was.

And, do understand-- I am not exactly on the "I hate Shadowlands" bandwagon, though it may seem so-- I played Shadowlands more than any other clan. In fact, I tended to play Shadowlands even when I was using some other Clan's stronghold. I was a major advocate of bringing back the Snake Clan. Annoyingly so. By all means I should LOVE the Spider Clan... except, fundamentally, I still got to look at it and say... well... the way it was implemented just serves to ruin every other faction because it demands the unreasonable from them.

And if one is going to remake the game, it should be patched up. There would be no better time to do it than now. Without the whole chance to reset everything, one would have to in-story justify any sort of change....

At this point though? One can freely do a time jump-- either backwards or forwards-- and just rearrange things so they make sense.

45 minutes ago, cielago said:

i have a theory. its like how if you click the first link on any wikipedia article, and keep doing so, you'll eventually end up at philosophy, i think if people keep posting in any l5r thread long enough, they'll eventually end up arguing about the spider.

Its like Godwin's Law

Sozan's law?