Fair points. I recall Spider players being upset that Kanpeki's ascension came at the cost of everything that made him interesting. His fight with Setai was pointless (Setai couldn't compel the Spider to give loyalty to Shibatsu over Kanpeki, and everyone involved should have known it), and throwing away his love for his wife to finally corrupt himself was simplistic.

How much more interesting would it have been for Daigotsu to reject Kanpeki, since Kanpeki was after all throwing away everything Daigotsu gave him and unwilling to fight for himself without his father's direct intervention?

Spider players also had to carry the disdain from the players upset that nobody else had a say in whether the Spider would be a great clan. Every step of the way, it was down to Spider players only, the other clans' players be damned.

Despite ALL of this, the Spider players are probably the most dedicated overall to the game that I've seen. For every Spider player I saw rubbing everyone else's noses in the plot armor, I saw a dozen who were desperately trying to convince AEG that the Spider should stop being both enemy and clan at the same time. They went out of their way to be courteous in every interaction with players upset at the Spider's status in the game. Even while they were looking forward to Onyx, they were lamenting that it seemed like it'd be an uphill battle to keep the Spider.

Much as I personally hate the Spider's effect on the game, the Spider players deserve better than getting kicked to the curb. I don't know how feasible it is to come up with a solution palatable to Spider and Empire players, but it's worth the pursuit.

On 2/16/2017 at 7:25 PM, Sparks Duh said:

Space in the core set isn't a valid reason since AGoT core set came with 8 factions. 9 isn't that far of a stretch, sorry.

I don't see how one can reasonably conclude that, because AGoT had 8 factions in the core set, L5R necessarily will work with 9. That's one LCG, that started with more factions than any other LCG. Netrunner had 7 (effectively no subsequent increase). Star Wars effectively had 4 (planned increase to 6 with the first deluxe). WH40K Conquest had 7 (planned increase to 9 with the first two deluxe, IIRC). Arkham Horror has 5. 8+ is clearly not the choice for every game. And one can't just assume that they can always add one more (if they can do 8, then they can do 9, and if they can do 9, then they can do 10, and if they can do 10, etc., etc.,). We don't know what they're going to do with L5R. But we do know that they've never done more than 8 factions in a core set, and we know that 9 would be more than double what some games started with. It's reasonable to think that they will be able to and choose to do 9 in the base set (although I think it likely that it would come with more extensive cross-clan material than has traditionally been present in L5R). But it's also entirely reasonable to think that they will decide it's better not to do 9 (with or without more factions getting added later through deluxe expansions).

1 hour ago, Daramere said:

I don't see how one can reasonably conclude that, because AGoT had 8 factions in the core set, L5R necessarily will work with 9. That's one LCG, that started with more factions than any other LCG. Netrunner had 7 (effectively no subsequent increase). Star Wars effectively had 4 (planned increase to 6 with the first deluxe). WH40K Conquest had 7 (planned increase to 9 with the first two deluxe, IIRC). Arkham Horror has 5. 8+ is clearly not the choice for every game. And one can't just assume that they can always add one more (if they can do 8, then they can do 9, and if they can do 9, then they can do 10, and if they can do 10, etc., etc.,). We don't know what they're going to do with L5R. But we do know that they've never done more than 8 factions in a core set, and we know that 9 would be more than double what some games started with. It's reasonable to think that they will be able to and choose to do 9 in the base set (although I think it likely that it would come with more extensive cross-clan material than has traditionally been present in L5R). But it's also entirely reasonable to think that they will decide it's better not to do 9 (with or without more factions getting added later through deluxe expansions).

Quite possibly. However, to say that the game can't support it is being short-sighted, imo. And when everyone says that it will be less than 9, it's always spider and mantis that gets kicked. I understand that people don't like the spider, but the fact is the spider were an integral part of the game at the sale. Saying they should be kicked just because the game can't support 9 factions is just their bias showing through. I never liked the crab clan. I think they are the the ones that should be kicked because the game can't support 9 factions. No other reason than that. That's all the reasoning I'm getting from people wanting the spider kicked.

Based on FFGs previous form in this area I would think its highly unlikely that they'll be able to accommodate 9 factions in the initial core box at least. Their usual model is to start with a core number of factions and then introduce a couple more via Deluxe boxes later on (e.g. Martell & Greyjoy in AGoT v1, Tyranids and Necrons in Conquest).

AGoT 2nd ed. was a bit of an anomaly with 8 factions, but you need to consider:

1) The game mechanics and flavour were largely unchanged (relatively speaking) from 1st edition; 6 Houses were already very familiar to the player base - only 2 new ones were introduced. By contrast, with L5R there will be an element of unknown to a lot of players - whether that be the mechanics of the game, the peculiarities of LCGs, or the L5R universe/Rokugan itself - not to mention that the flavour and 'personality' of each Clan needs to be properly introduced to those less familiar (there's no crash course courtesy of a major box office hit TV series!). When you consider that Core sets can only contain a certain number of cards, 9 Clans just seems unfeasible.

2) They were only able to get away with cramming all 8 factions into the core set by including an Alliance/Banner Agenda that let you ally 2 Houses (thus expanding the available card pool for each House). Easier to do that when the majority of houses need no (re-)introduction to a player base that is largely already established.

All of this is of course pure speculation on my part. If any Clans are missed from Core Set then I am sure they will be introduced later. But it's the nature of such games that some factions will always seem to get preferential treatment: Space Marines will always be top of the pecking order for any 40k-related expansion, whilst Martell will nearly always be last in line for any AGoT expansions.

13 hours ago, Sparks Duh said:

but the fact is the spider were an integral part of the game at the sale

See, here lies the problem. Truly integral parts of the game are clans and concepts that were there from the very beginning: Crab, Crane, Dragon, Lion, Phoenix, Unicorn and Shadowlands - but not the Spider CLAN. Introduction of Spider as a great clan was a total narrative failure - other great clans players know it, spider clan players know it, everyone know it. If Spider were to return to Shadowland hordes-style of a faction, i think most people would be content, as far as narrative goes. We have group of noble great clans and a big bad evil. First feel good about themselves when they successfully defeat another onslaught of evil forces, second feel good about themselves by being a badass villains. Nobody has to be portrayed as incompetent fools. And that's it. It's not really a "I hate Spider so they have to go". Situation with Mantis is a bit trickier, because it's not that they have something inherently wrong with them being a part of the Empire - it's more to do with what they represent: a group of profoundly different minor clans who are disconnected from each other by lands and sea but who nevertheless banded together for mutual benefit. They just put too much of a spin on what it means to be a Great clan. Again - nobody seriously hates Mantis or Shadowlands, it's just if FFG decided that they HAVE TO put somebody in a waiting room for future expansion, it's more likely they do it with more "edgy and different" factions, rather than vanilla stuff.

18 hours ago, Sparks Duh said:

Quite possibly. However, to say that the game can't support it is being short-sighted, imo. And when everyone says that it will be less than 9, it's always spider and mantis that gets kicked. I understand that people don't like the spider, but the fact is the spider were an integral part of the game at the sale. Saying they should be kicked just because the game can't support 9 factions is just their bias showing through. I never liked the crab clan. I think they are the the ones that should be kicked because the game can't support 9 factions. No other reason than that. That's all the reasoning I'm getting from people wanting the spider kicked.

I respectfully disagree. Sure there are some people who are blatantly biased and it shows (cough cough). But I have read a number of passionate and thoughtful posts from people who've consciously tried to put their opinions aside and think critically about the situation. Granted, we have some people thinking critically about mechanics while others are thinking critically about lore. Meanwhile, a third group is concerned with real world practicality. Then we have egos. Put them all in a blender and you get the faction projection fustercluck. To paint all prediction of the Spider's absence, at launch, with the same broad brush is its own form of bias, especially when you obviously have a dog in the fight.

Just to be clear though, my gut feeling is that the Spider will have a place at the table. I'm not confident enough about the specifics (timeline, mechanics, or clan status) to make any definitive predictions, but I do believe that the Spider figured too prominently in recent arcs to be dropped completely.

My belief is that if it's any clan cut from base set, it's Mantis -- they'd have little to nothing in AEG's internal design for Onyx, art or mechanics, and FFG's got a massive overhaul in the works on top of that.

That said, FFG started on a two year cycle, not one. They've got their own team, and they were fans, too. They likely spent a full year just on designing the core elements of the game, and frankly, AEG did that way far ago, too, with six clans in base and two more in a set almost immediately after. They had to design from scratch, had less experience and money, and still they had eight clans. One or two more, isn't unlikely.

Putting Mantis in isn't out of the question, especially if they fold the Naga-based mechanics back over into Mantis.

5 hours ago, SirEuain said:

Putting Mantis in isn't out of the question, especially if they fold the Naga-based mechanics back over into Mantis.

Shadowlands immunity, copying abilities everywhere and pearl magic buffs? Sounds like 100% Mantis.

From what I've seen of AGoT, a core set from FFG has ~211 cards. Of those, 45 are Neutral, with 8 banners (Back side of card) and 6 Titles for a total of 59 non-house cards. Leaving us with 152 house cards separated by 8 houses, giving us 19 cards per house.

If L5R had 8 clans (and if it was me, I'd leave Mantis - even being my second favorite clan - out because of Onyx) that means that, for example, you'd have 10 clan personalities, 2 clan holdings, 5 clan strategies and 2 clan attachments. If you'd take most (or all) of the clan strategies and put them in the generic group, you could have up to 15 personalities. That's not all that much clan personalities (not even counting uniques), and you'd have to have all the strategies, neutral holdings and neutral attachments (if I recall correctly, that was more than half an usual AEG set) on those 45 to 59 neutral slots. It'd be hard to get nine clans in, but there's always a possibility that they could get less in.

@Sparks Duh While I'm not a fan of Spider (I'm a good guys win guy) I understand the "need" for them if FFG starts this after Onyx Edition. On the other hand, if they'd go for a reboot and had to cleave the clans down to 6, they would toss Mantis and Spider down first in my opinion, because the original clans didn't have them and most people would be annoyed that, as a reboot, they'd take some of the starting clans out to get Spider or Mantis in. To toss one of the original 7 clans, they'd probably choose one that would be overlapping one or more of the other clans, or that didn't have a defined strategy in the LCG format (no dishonor would remove Scorpion, no cavalry would trash Unicorn...).

@SirEuain Even if this is or not a reboot, the Naga would probably be a bit outside the core set idea to show up, I think.

On a totally unrelated note, they could give Spider in the (after Onyx) core set the most Imperial Favor gimmicks (if it's still a thing) and then, after the coup (there has to be a coup) start giving the IF things to the other clans (in their Deluxe boxes, perhaps)

Just my 2 koku (or a bit more than 2 koku)

What if the core set contained only unaligned personalities and generic cards with the clan specific ones in the chapter packs? If in order to fit 9 clans in the core set they move from 2 40 card decks to a single 60 card deck would you accept it? Would continuing the KYD timeline be better than Onyx?

32 minutes ago, muzouka said:

Would continuing the KYD timeline be better than Onyx?

Well that's out of nowhere...

On 2/17/2017 at 4:21 PM, SirEuain said:

I meant with regards to the start of the FFG story, not the end of it. Not only would the Spider still presumably exist in early Onyx, most or all of whatever art resources AEG gave FFG would be Spider-themed, too.

Except the Spider are an active presence, and for all intents and purposes, the driving force of the story. Despite the parallels to the Clan Wars, this is a massive difference between Kanpeki and Hantei XXXIX -- Hantei didn't have a personal army at his direct beck and call, nor did he run the courts. Kanpeki does. Nothing about Kanpeki strikes me as though he'd sit back and let his minions do the heavy lifting here.

To put it bluntly, if the story continues from where AEG left off, Dragon needs to be front and center. In story terms, Kanpeki's ascension is flatly the Dragon's fault, since they didn't prevent it (AEG not letting them aside).

Despite FFG taking over from AEG, they're not starting fresh in many respects. Whatever else may be said, I think we can all agree that players were unhappy with how AEG had handled things in recent years, and if FFG wants to make their best case for the game's survival, such problems need to be addressed out of the gates.

FFG shouldn't tell anyone "Wait and See" for something that was long overdue under AEG. Ideally, new L5R would open with, for instance, Lion winning a decisive victory in a major battle, or Crane politically neutralizing an early Spider gambit. This would be the time for FFG to show players "yes, we hear, understand, and this is what we're doing right now to fix what came before."

To backtrack a bit, I think the primary reason Mantis might not be in the base set is simple practicality: Mantis wasn't in Onyx, so any art resources AEG left FFG is likely to have little or no Mantis representation. Representing Mantis in the base set would require disproportionately more cash than for the other clans.

Looking over the thread, too, we've forgotten that Naga were supposed to be in Onyx. We're not dealing with a maximum of nine boxes, but a maximum of ten.

Finally, we may not be dealing so much with just one release. One of the bigger elements of L5R was the use of learn to play sets, and this is probably the best time to pull one out. Two to four clans in a specific battle would go a long way to both establish gameplay changes and bring us up to speed on story, with the remaining clans in the base set giving a more general backdrop. For example, a L2P set focused on a Lion attack during the celebration of Kanpeki's ascension would work pretty well, with both clans having a military focus and presumably small political backups (Lion for an honor win, Spider for dishonor).

Maybe. Kanpeki and his follower's certainly exist. But they've been in control of the Empire for a while. They are basically the imperial family at this point. And while Kanpeki will be the first big bad guy, it make take a while to get there. The story around the starter and the first expansion or two might not focus on Kanpeki and the Throne, it might (maybe likely too) focus on the other clans in the Colonies.

The Dragon are basically gone right now. There some individual former dragon running around, but the clan itself is locked up in its mountain with a wall preventing anyone from getting in or out. They will play a big role at some point when that wall comes down and they start helping the other clans against Kanpeki, but right at the start.......they're gone.

7 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

They are basically the imperial family at this point.

Can you link the story where this is stated?

38 minutes ago, Sparks Duh said:

Can you link the story where this is stated?

http://www.kazenoshiro.com/fiction/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/L5R-OnyxDawn-LoRes.pdf

The highlights (Spoilers if people want to read it for themselves) - Kanpeki believes the deal struck with his father and the Empire is broken so he declaires ware on the Empire. Spider Samurai accept the taint again, the Susumu family as mostly execucted (something like 40 left) and the Spider-Monks join the Crab clan while the Chuda family rejoins the Spider. Kanpeki starts breaking the seals that seperate Jigoku and the world. Nitoshi kills Makoto (unwilling) and Tsukimi (willing) to gain Kanpeki's trust. When the combined Spider-Scorpion clans attack the capital the Scorpion save the royal family and Nitoshi is killed by Kanpeki. Several important people die trying to defend the seals, but the Spider are successful in breaking all 3. The Dragon seal themselves, all non-Dragon clan people and Monks of Shinsai in their mountain (Shekei leaves the clan to join Naleesh). Naleesh and Min-Hee start fighting a civil war for control of the clan. The remaining clans escape to the colonies to lick their wounds and plan a counter attack.

On 2/20/2017 at 1:27 AM, Sparks Duh said:

Quite possibly. However, to say that the game can't support it is being short-sighted, imo. And when everyone says that it will be less than 9, it's always spider and mantis that gets kicked. I understand that people don't like the spider, but the fact is the spider were an integral part of the game at the sale. Saying they should be kicked just because the game can't support 9 factions is just their bias showing through. I never liked the crab clan. I think they are the the ones that should be kicked because the game can't support 9 factions. No other reason than that. That's all the reasoning I'm getting from people wanting the spider kicked.

No one has said the Spider should be wiped from existence (except for Kisada) but for several reasons it might/probably makes sense to hold them back for a deluxe expansion. Stop being so dramatic. There isn't a campaign to to erase the Spider because everyone hates them.

45 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

Maybe. Kanpeki and his follower's certainly exist. But they've been in control of the Empire for a while. They are basically the imperial family at this point. And while Kanpeki will be the first big bad guy, it make take a while to get there. The story around the starter and the first expansion or two might not focus on Kanpeki and the Throne, it might (maybe likely too) focus on the other clans in the Colonies.

The Dragon are basically gone right now. There some individual former dragon running around, but the clan itself is locked up in its mountain with a wall preventing anyone from getting in or out. They will play a big role at some point when that wall comes down and they start helping the other clans against Kanpeki, but right at the start.......they're gone.

Frankly, I think the game should open with Kanpeki's assassination if they continue into Onyx. It'd address some of the complaints about the railroading, add an element of the unknown, and give a little more leeway for the Spider to split over this.

And if FFG decides to sideline the Dragon, they deserve to have the game bomb. That's bad storytelling, and bad faith with the playerbase. Dragon, more than anyone but the Mantis, got screwed over by AEG's mad rush to Onyx. They were made to look impotent and stupid so Spider could get away with everything. It's overdue to make them competent and active. Kicking them back up the mountain is a lazy story device that essentially tells the Dragon players not to bother, since FFG wouldn't be, either.

3 minutes ago, SirEuain said:

Frankly, I think the game should open with Kanpeki's assassination if they continue into Onyx. It'd address some of the complaints about the railroading, add an element of the unknown, and give a little more leeway for the Spider to split over this.

And if FFG decides to sideline the Dragon, they deserve to have the game bomb. That's bad storytelling, and bad faith with the playerbase. Dragon, more than anyone but the Mantis, got screwed over by AEG's mad rush to Onyx. They were made to look impotent and stupid so Spider could get away with everything. It's overdue to make them competent and active. Kicking them back up the mountain is a lazy story device that essentially tells the Dragon players not to bother, since FFG wouldn't be, either.

I completely disagree.

I dont' want this story and just end, I want to see it done properly. I want to see the clans bickering and in fighting in the colonies until someone finally knocks some sense into them and they unit against their real enemy.

The dragon is one of 3 clans that I primarly play, and I like this direction for them. They KNOW whats goign to happen for the next 10-20 years, they know going to the colonies won't gain them anything. They know they better serve the Empire by remaining, observing and waiting for that perfect/right time to act and help bring Kanpeki down. I think its actually very.......flavorful for the dragon.

2 hours ago, SirEuain said:

Frankly, I think the game should open with Kanpeki's assassination if they continue into Onyx. It'd address some of the complaints about the railroading, add an element of the unknown, and give a little more leeway for the Spider to split over this.

And if FFG decides to sideline the Dragon, they deserve to have the game bomb. That's bad storytelling, and bad faith with the playerbase. Dragon, more than anyone but the Mantis, got screwed over by AEG's mad rush to Onyx. They were made to look impotent and stupid so Spider could get away with everything. It's overdue to make them competent and active. Kicking them back up the mountain is a lazy story device that essentially tells the Dragon players not to bother, since FFG wouldn't be, either.

i'm no fan of Kanpeki's, i think he's a pretty crummy spider champion and as a son of Daigotsu i think he was a complete waste of a storytelling opportunity, but you can't complain about bad storytelling then want FFG to commit a staggering storytelling sin like killing off the principal villain in the first chapter. i mean, c'mon buddy, thats just a pipe dream. i've gone on at length about this else where, but that victory has to be earned. if they keep the existing onyx storyline, thats gonna hafta be the result of a story arc, not a throwaway bit to pacify a minority of existing fans. if they want rid of him that bad they just wont use onyx. these people are fans of the game, they won't make their first outing in the setting a badly written one.

If they do do a time Jump and resolved onyx as a thing that happened in the past I would really like to see the spider Clan as the clan where all of non inheriting Heirs of the Imperial family go ( like the otomo back in the day) I would like the dragon to have gone back to the mountains and taken the naga with them so they will have a strong Naga bloodline running throughout most of the clan. I would like the crane to embrace the lifestyles of the Ivory kingdom perhaps even adding a new ivory family to the clan . I would also like to see the Phoenix Clan ( or scorpion Clan ) take in the order of the ebon hand . That's just a few time Jump reflavour things I would like

7 minutes ago, Willisbatman said:

If they do do a time Jump and resolved onyx as a thing that happened in the past I would really like to see the spider Clan as the clan where all of non inheriting Heirs of the Imperial family go ( like the otomo back in the day) I would like the dragon to have gone back to the mountains and taken the naga with them so they will have a strong Naga bloodline running throughout most of the clan. I would like the crane to embrace the lifestyles of the Ivory kingdom perhaps even adding a new ivory family to the clan . I would also like to see the Phoenix Clan ( or scorpion Clan ) take in the order of the ebon hand . That's just a few time Jump reflavour things I would like

now that is a really flippin' brilliant idea. given that they sent shibatsu to the susumu, it follows an established precedent, and it gives the spider both a reason to exist (a place for the heirs to go, and to protect said scions) as well as a sort of backhanded way of keeping said heirs from trying their hand at the throne. Once a new emperor has ascended, and the unnecessary scions are spidered, they are tainted if not in fact, then by association, which certainly makes it hard for them to rustle up political power for any kind of insurrection. seriously, if i were writing a timeskip, i'd 100% use that.

as a spider, i also like that, as the home of the hantei bloodline, it in a way bolsters the spider clan's claim to the throne in a kind of subtle, backhanded way. should anything go wrong with the main imperial line, well then... the spider don't just have that bloodline, but the HANTEI bloodline too...

13 minutes ago, cielago said:

now that is a really flippin' brilliant idea. given that they sent shibatsu to the susumu, it follows an established precedent, and it gives the spider both a reason to exist (a place for the heirs to go, and to protect said scions) as well as a sort of backhanded way of keeping said heirs from trying their hand at the throne. Once a new emperor has ascended, and the unnecessary scions are spidered, they are tainted if not in fact, then by association, which certainly makes it hard for them to rustle up political power for any kind of insurrection. seriously, if i were writing a timeskip, i'd 100% use that.

as a spider, i also like that, as the home of the hantei bloodline, it in a way bolsters the spider clan's claim to the throne in a kind of subtle, backhanded way. should anything go wrong with the main imperial line, well then... the spider don't just have that bloodline, but the HANTEI bloodline too...

Also I would like to have the son of the bastard return if there is a civil war in the emerald Empire I wanted it to be the will of thevHeavens versus the will of man not another "Oh no something evil is coming we better team up and kill it . " And that's what Kenpki was

32 minutes ago, cielago said:

now that is a really flippin' brilliant idea. given that they sent shibatsu to the susumu, it follows an established precedent, and it gives the spider both a reason to exist (a place for the heirs to go, and to protect said scions) as well as a sort of backhanded way of keeping said heirs from trying their hand at the throne. Once a new emperor has ascended, and the unnecessary scions are spidered, they are tainted if not in fact, then by association, which certainly makes it hard for them to rustle up political power for any kind of insurrection. seriously, if i were writing a timeskip, i'd 100% use that.

as a spider, i also like that, as the home of the hantei bloodline, it in a way bolsters the spider clan's claim to the throne in a kind of subtle, backhanded way. should anything go wrong with the main imperial line, well then... the spider don't just have that bloodline, but the HANTEI bloodline too...

I don't think they can just skip over the end of Onyx - the Iweko line has been usurped, Kanpeki not only took the throne but broke the seals keeping Jigoku and the world seperate, 4 clans lost their champions (Crane, Phoenix, Scorpion and Dragon), one clan (Mantis) is no longer a great clan, the Dragon are seperated from the rest of the world, the Unicorn are fighting a civil war........I don't want to see all this just skipped over.

25 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

I don't think they can just skip over the end of Onyx - the Iweko line has been usurped, Kanpeki not only took the throne but broke the seals keeping Jigoku and the world seperate, 4 clans lost their champions (Crane, Phoenix, Scorpion and Dragon), one clan (Mantis) is no longer a great clan, the Dragon are seperated from the rest of the world, the Unicorn are fighting a civil war........I don't want to see all this just skipped over.

yeah, for sure the spider as the home of the second sons idea is not particularly compatible with onyx. i don't see much chance for the susumu being much more than an after thought, in the story or the game, in onyx.

31 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

I don't think they can just skip over the end of Onyx - the Iweko line has been usurped, Kanpeki not only took the throne but broke the seals keeping Jigoku and the world seperate, 4 clans lost their champions (Crane, Phoenix, Scorpion and Dragon), one clan (Mantis) is no longer a great clan, the Dragon are seperated from the rest of the world, the Unicorn are fighting a civil war........I don't want to see all this just skipped over.

From a point of view, it's easier to skip over, specially if the current storyteam has no idea of the general roadmap of the old storyline. I'll be more personal about the Onyx Arc, but for me, it feels unofficial. The reason why I feel it's not official is simple, it was done after the sales to FFG. At that time, lots of people loss interest of the Onyx Arc. No event has been done in the Onyx Arc also and it was released more than one year ago.

Also, another reason for FFG to skip over it, the change from CCG to LCG with a new system. It would be easier to create a separation between that change with a skip. How confused new players may be if the first edition of the LCG would be if it's called "Onyx Edition Arc". Some would do some research and may find the CCG Onyx Edition cards. Based on this, I have hard time to not see a skip over the Onyx Arc.

Not to mention that the way it went, felt a bit like: "It's the end, let's give a hard time to the next team since we lost our job." (Before you throw stone at me for saying this, I'm not saying it's the case)

So yeah, I would prefer to see a "peaceful start" instead of starting somewhere that there's a lot of stuffs happened with a lot of questions around those...

[Edit for clarifications]