My Problem with the Spider is simple when they start doing anything I like in the story the thread dies ( infiltration of the sparrow clan ) or they never followed up on it ( samurai of other clans taking up Shourido or them being conquerors of other nations not just the ivory kingdoms) The nature of Legend of the Five Rings makes the founding of the Spider clan Sacrosanct

2 minutes ago, Willisbatman said:

My Problem with the Spider is simple when they start doing anything I like in the story the thread dies ( infiltration of the sparrow clan ) or they never followed up on it ( samurai of other clans taking up Shourido or them being conquerors of other nations not just the ivory kingdoms) The nature of Legend of the Five Rings makes the founding of the Spider clan Sacrosanct

Part of that might just be the nature of the set design and the limited space each expansion. It always seemed like one part of a clan's mechanics or flavor are addressed in one set then forgotten about for the rest of an arc. I do hope we get more AGoT level of focus but still have some room to try things.

Haters gonna hate on Spiders/Mantis

5 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

Part of that might just be the nature of the set design and the limited space each expansion. It always seemed like one part of a clan's mechanics or flavor are addressed in one set then forgotten about for the rest of an arc. I do hope we get more AGoT level of focus but still have some room to try things.

Haters gonna hate on Spiders/Mantis

That was the negative/draw back of trying to give each clan 4 themes. Personally I think with the LCG the days of multiple themes from the clans are gone, and we'll simply have Crab Clan Decks, Phoenix Clan Decks, Unicorn Clan decks etc...

No one, that I've seen, is hating on Spider or Mantis. There are valid reasons to believe that FFG can't or won't put out a starter box with 9 factions (mainly the number of cards needed, and the desire to hold something back for the first few deluxe expansions). IF this is true, Spider and Mantis (and I think Dragon) make sense to be the clans they hold back until a later date.

15 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

That was the negative/draw back of trying to give each clan 4 themes. Personally I think with the LCG the days of multiple themes from the clans are gone, and we'll simply have Crab Clan Decks, Phoenix Clan Decks, Unicorn Clan decks etc...

No one, that I've seen, is hating on Spider or Mantis. There are valid reasons to believe that FFG can't or won't put out a starter box with 9 factions (mainly the number of cards needed, and the desire to hold something back for the first few deluxe expansions). IF this is true, Spider and Mantis (and I think Dragon) make sense to be the clans they hold back until a later date.

That is EXACTLY spider/mantis hate. To me, it makes just as much sense to not include Lion or Unicorn in the base set. With exactly the same 'valid' reasons as people say about spider and mantis. None of the reasons given are valid for not including all 9 clans in the core set. So it's pretty much only spider and mantis hate. Which is fine... but don't act like there have been valid reasons for your bias.

11 minutes ago, Sparks Duh said:

That is EXACTLY spider/mantis hate. To me, it makes just as much sense to not include Lion or Unicorn in the base set. With exactly the same 'valid' reasons as people say about spider and mantis. None of the reasons given are valid for not including all 9 clans in the core set. So it's pretty much only spider and mantis hate. Which is fine... but don't act like there have been valid reasons for your bias.

Space in the core set is a valid reason not to have every clan represented which clans are kept are clearly up in the air ( i would like Mantis ,Dragon,Spider,Crane, Phoenix,Crab) I would like to see every faction and clan to eventually be represented ( other than Rats never cared for them)

29 minutes ago, Willisbatman said:

Space in the core set is a valid reason not to have every clan represented which clans are kept are clearly up in the air ( i would like Mantis ,Dragon,Spider,Crane, Phoenix,Crab) I would like to see every faction and clan to eventually be represented ( other than Rats never cared for them)

Space in the core set isn't a valid reason since AGoT core set came with 8 factions. 9 isn't that far of a stretch, sorry.

15 minutes ago, Sparks Duh said:

Space in the core set isn't a valid reason since AGoT core set came with 8 factions. 9 isn't that far of a stretch, sorry.

I think I just want more stuff per faction than you do, I would rather have more options. that's just a difference in opinion .

10 hours ago, Sparks Duh said:

Really, none of that matters. The spider became a great clan because the divine Empress said so. The Empress' word is law. Other clans have to accept that as law. The celestial heavens speak through her and if anyone defies the word of the heavens, then they don't belong in the empire.

How about instead of whining about the spider being a great clan, try to convert them in to what you think they should be in the empire. You know... it's a challenge for sure, but it's better storytelling than 'whaaaaa... the spider don't belong... whaaaaa'. I think all the whining about spider being a great clan instead of actively trying to work with them is what lead to the spider taking over the empire. Everyone wanted easy, but if you took the harder path, things could have been different. But nope... all we got were people just whining all the **** time.

Yes, the Empress aid so, but the Crab, Mantis, Scorpion, and Unicorn have turned on the throne with less provocation than the Emperor granting legitimacy to the Shadowlands. Ideally, this would've been addressed in the immediate aftermath by those clans going to war for just this reason, but that's not what happened. Sadly, the question of what the Spider should be has not only gone unresolved, it's done so at the expense of everyone else. Every time that AEG said the Spider would have to deal with the consequences of their behavior, too, nothing happened of significance. Despite having several clans specifically watching them for signs of them violating the agreements with Iweko, violate they did, and nothing happened.

Understand, I am not saying the Spider should go. I'm not saying the Spider players don't deserve a place at the table. I'm saying that it's been ten years, and so far the Spider's been making everyone else look like idiots, exactly what AEG said wasn't going to happen. I'm open to suggestions on how to bring the Spider into the fold, but "the Empress said so, suck it" is at least as unreasonable as people saying the other clans should curbstomp the Spider. The other players have every reason to be upset that not only has Spider gotten in, they got in while making everyone else look like idiots.

If at all possible, yes, I'd prefer FFG to give the Spider players something that satisfies them, but not if it's like what came before, and sacrificed the other eight clans to do it.

10 hours ago, sndwurks said:

The real challenge is that it has to be either the Scorpion Clan or the Spider Clan holding the Villain ball. It cannot be effectively shared by both Clans, and without the Villain ball? The Scorpion Clan are straight anti-heroes. They stop being the Crane Clan without morals, and start become the Crab Clan with classiness.

This has also been an issue. I'd been desperately hoping Scorpion would finally step up and make the Spider regret crossing them, but the promised Snake Eyes vs. Goju match never happened. Hell, the Shadow Dragon was a perfect subject for it, and was simply thrown to the Spider instead of letting it be anything.

The dilemma, in my opinion, isn't whether Spider should be in or not. They should. If it's a continuation of Onyx, it'd be ludicrous they wouldn't be in the first set.

But how do you make the Spider Clan demonstrably be the Spider Clan, while still providing other players a reason to care about their clans in the story?

15 hours ago, Sparks Duh said:

That is EXACTLY spider/mantis hate. To me, it makes just as much sense to not include Lion or Unicorn in the base set. With exactly the same 'valid' reasons as people say about spider and mantis. None of the reasons given are valid for not including all 9 clans in the core set. So it's pretty much only spider and mantis hate. Which is fine... but don't act like there have been valid reasons for your bias.

Right - you see no reason why it makes more sense to include the original clans over the the newly added ones.........

Not having the card base in a starter to support 9 clans and wanting to hold some clans back for deluxe expansions are totally valid reasons. Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean its hateful.

14 hours ago, Sparks Duh said:

Space in the core set isn't a valid reason since AGoT core set came with 8 factions. 9 isn't that far of a stretch, sorry.

We don't know how many cards you need for an FFG LCG L5R deck yet. If the decks are bigger and requires more cards, and more clan exclusive cards then the GoT game, its not a valid comparison.

12 hours ago, SirEuain said:

Yes, the Empress aid so, but the Crab, Mantis, Scorpion, and Unicorn have turned on the throne with less provocation than the Emperor granting legitimacy to the Shadowlands. Ideally, this would've been addressed in the immediate aftermath by those clans going to war for just this reason, but that's not what happened. Sadly, the question of what the Spider should be has not only gone unresolved, it's done so at the expense of everyone else. Every time that AEG said the Spider would have to deal with the consequences of their behavior, too, nothing happened of significance. Despite having several clans specifically watching them for signs of them violating the agreements with Iweko, violate they did, and nothing happened.

Understand, I am not saying the Spider should go. I'm not saying the Spider players don't deserve a place at the table. I'm saying that it's been ten years, and so far the Spider's been making everyone else look like idiots, exactly what AEG said wasn't going to happen. I'm open to suggestions on how to bring the Spider into the fold, but "the Empress said so, suck it" is at least as unreasonable as people saying the other clans should curbstomp the Spider. The other players have every reason to be upset that not only has Spider gotten in, they got in while making everyone else look like idiots.

If at all possible, yes, I'd prefer FFG to give the Spider players something that satisfies them, but not if it's like what came before, and sacrificed the other eight clans to do it.

This has also been an issue. I'd been desperately hoping Scorpion would finally step up and make the Spider regret crossing them, but the promised Snake Eyes vs. Goju match never happened. Hell, the Shadow Dragon was a perfect subject for it, and was simply thrown to the Spider instead of letting it be anything.

The dilemma, in my opinion, isn't whether Spider should be in or not. They should. If it's a continuation of Onyx, it'd be ludicrous they wouldn't be in the first set.

But how do you make the Spider Clan demonstrably be the Spider Clan, while still providing other players a reason to care about their clans in the story?

If FFG picks up where the AEG story left off, I think its very possible the Spider Clan is going to go away and be replaced by Shadowlands or tainted or something along those lines. I'm not sure how you conclude the story of Kanpeki and keep the Spider Clan intact.

7 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

If FFG picks up where the AEG story left off, I think its very possible the Spider Clan is going to go away and be replaced by Shadowlands or tainted or something along those lines. I'm not sure how you conclude the story of Kanpeki and keep the Spider Clan intact.

LMFAO!!!

That's like saying I don't know how you conclude the story of Iweko and keep the Dragon intact.

The Clans presence will all depend on FFG answer on the following question: "What will be the starting point of the Storyline?" I don't think that some people are thinking to left out some Clans based on hate or anything.

If FFG decides to start the storyline right were AEG ended it before selling it, it wouldn't make any sense to remove the Spider Clan. However, if they decide to start the storyline at the very beginning, at the Scorpion Coup, then of course, it would make sense to remove the Spider Clan. The same goes with other Clans.

Also, FFG could decide to move the story ahead by some years and creates stronger alliances between Clans, for example, the Pincer Alliance (Crab and Scorpion) being a single faction as their first release. This would mean that, both Crab and Scorpion, would be "removed" for the "Pincer Clan" for the first set and, later on, disband the alliances on the second set and where there's enough cards for every Clans to have diversities.

It's something to consider. To completely remove a Clan, it will need a good reason and from what I've read here, the reasons are good and nothing based on: "Oh! I hate X Clan, so it should be removed!" Otherwise, we might as well remove every Clan, because I'm sure that there's at least someone hates a specific Clan.

53 minutes ago, Sparks Duh said:

LMFAO!!!

That's like saying I don't know how you conclude the story of Iweko and keep the Dragon intact.

You are aware of whats happened in the story?

4 hours ago, Crawd said:

The Clans presence will all depend on FFG answer on the following question: "What will be the starting point of the Storyline?" I don't think that some people are thinking to left out some Clans based on hate or anything.

If FFG decides to start the storyline right were AEG ended it before selling it, it wouldn't make any sense to remove the Spider Clan. However, if they decide to start the storyline at the very beginning, at the Scorpion Coup, then of course, it would make sense to remove the Spider Clan. The same goes with other Clans.

Also, FFG could decide to move the story ahead by some years and creates stronger alliances between Clans, for example, the Pincer Alliance (Crab and Scorpion) being a single faction as their first release. This would mean that, both Crab and Scorpion, would be "removed" for the "Pincer Clan" for the first set and, later on, disband the alliances on the second set and where there's enough cards for every Clans to have diversities.

It's something to consider. To completely remove a Clan, it will need a good reason and from what I've read here, the reasons are good and nothing based on: "Oh! I hate X Clan, so it should be removed!" Otherwise, we might as well remove every Clan, because I'm sure that there's at least someone hates a specific Clan.

If they move the story a head, I actually wouldn't be surprised if they do move forward a few years, the Crab/Scorpion will not be allied.

If they continue with the story, leaving the Spider out (basically hte Imperial family at this point, the Mantis (who basically became a minor clan again) and the Dragon (sealed up in their mountain) would make hte most sense to leave out until a deluxe expasion (and for what its worth, I play Dragon and Mantis - this isn't based on hate).

1 hour ago, Jedi samurai said:

If they move the story a head, I actually wouldn't be surprised if they do move forward a few years, the Crab/Scorpion will not be allied.

If they continue with the story, leaving the Spider out (basically hte Imperial family at this point, the Mantis (who basically became a minor clan again) and the Dragon (sealed up in their mountain) would make hte most sense to leave out until a deluxe expasion.

As a Dragon player myself, I'd actually be pleased with this. Not that I'd be thrilled about being left out of the opening story, mind you - though the opportunity to play a different clan would be interesting - but because I'd tend to expect some dramatic return. The Dragon have, well, lacked story time for a while now, despite placing the Empress on the throne. Sitting out for a bit, and then presumably coming back with a splash, would actually be something to look forward to.

Everybody who isn't Crane or Lion can claim to have not gotten enough story time at one point or another...

1 hour ago, agarrett said:

As a Dragon player myself, I'd actually be pleased with this. Not that I'd be thrilled about being left out of the opening story, mind you - though the opportunity to play a different clan would be interesting - but because I'd tend to expect some dramatic return. The Dragon have, well, lacked story time for a while now, despite placing the Empress on the throne. Sitting out for a bit, and then presumably coming back with a splash, would actually be something to look forward to.

Considering they are locked up, up there with the monks of Shinsei, I'm sure they'll show up at just the right time with the piece of info the rest of the clans need to defeat Kanpeki.

5 hours ago, Jedi samurai said:

If FFG picks up where the AEG story left off, I think its very possible the Spider Clan is going to go away and be replaced by Shadowlands or tainted or something along those lines. I'm not sure how you conclude the story of Kanpeki and keep the Spider Clan intact.

I meant with regards to the start of the FFG story, not the end of it. Not only would the Spider still presumably exist in early Onyx, most or all of whatever art resources AEG gave FFG would be Spider-themed, too.

5 hours ago, Crawd said:

Also, FFG could decide to move the story ahead by some years and creates stronger alliances between Clans, for alliances between Clans, for example, the Pincer Alliance (Crab and Scorpion) being a single faction as their first release. This would mean that, both Crab and Scorpion, would be "removed" for the "Pincer Clan" for the first set and, later on, disband the alliances on the second set and where there's enough cards for every Clans to have diversities.

It's something to consider. To completely remove a Clan, it will need a good reason and from what I've read here, the reasons are good and nothing based on: "Oh! I hate X Clan, so it should be removed!" Otherwise, we might as well remove every Clan, because I'm sure that there's at least someone hates a specific Clan.

In addition to the above, FFG's got to attract new blood as well as old. One of the previous posts said that the difference between the Scorpion and the Spider as far as story roles was pretty minimal. Consider from a new player's perspective the differences between Dragon and Phoenix -- both are mystical clans who place a greater focus on studying enlightenment and the elements than on politics or alliances, so the primary difference in a newb's eyes would be the relatively minor flavor differences like the player's tastes between wizard-priests and tattooed monks. Likewise, while longtime players know the deep differences between Mantis and Unicorn, both clans are iconoclasts who draw upon cultures far from Rokugan and deal in economic trade outside the Empire. Yes, a world of difference between pirates and Mongols, but are those themes so different as to justify two factions instead of one?

4 hours ago, Jedi samurai said:

If they continue with the story, leaving the Spider out (basically hte Imperial family at this point, the Mantis (who basically became a minor clan again) and the Dragon (sealed up in their mountain) would make hte most sense to leave out until a deluxe expasion (and for what its worth, I play Dragon and Mantis - this isn't based on hate).

Except the Spider are an active presence, and for all intents and purposes, the driving force of the story. Despite the parallels to the Clan Wars, this is a massive difference between Kanpeki and Hantei XXXIX -- Hantei didn't have a personal army at his direct beck and call, nor did he run the courts. Kanpeki does. Nothing about Kanpeki strikes me as though he'd sit back and let his minions do the heavy lifting here.

2 hours ago, agarrett said:

As a Dragon player myself, I'd actually be pleased with this. Not that I'd be thrilled about being left out of the opening story, mind you - though the opportunity to play a different clan would be interesting - but because I'd tend to expect some dramatic return. The Dragon have, well, lacked story time for a while now, despite placing the Empress on the throne. Sitting out for a bit, and then presumably coming back with a splash, would actually be something to look forward to.

To put it bluntly, if the story continues from where AEG left off, Dragon needs to be front and center. In story terms, Kanpeki's ascension is flatly the Dragon's fault, since they didn't prevent it (AEG not letting them aside).

Despite FFG taking over from AEG, they're not starting fresh in many respects. Whatever else may be said, I think we can all agree that players were unhappy with how AEG had handled things in recent years, and if FFG wants to make their best case for the game's survival, such problems need to be addressed out of the gates.

FFG shouldn't tell anyone "Wait and See" for something that was long overdue under AEG. Ideally, new L5R would open with, for instance, Lion winning a decisive victory in a major battle, or Crane politically neutralizing an early Spider gambit. This would be the time for FFG to show players "yes, we hear, understand, and this is what we're doing right now to fix what came before."

To backtrack a bit, I think the primary reason Mantis might not be in the base set is simple practicality: Mantis wasn't in Onyx, so any art resources AEG left FFG is likely to have little or no Mantis representation. Representing Mantis in the base set would require disproportionately more cash than for the other clans.

Looking over the thread, too, we've forgotten that Naga were supposed to be in Onyx. We're not dealing with a maximum of nine boxes, but a maximum of ten.

Finally, we may not be dealing so much with just one release. One of the bigger elements of L5R was the use of learn to play sets, and this is probably the best time to pull one out. Two to four clans in a specific battle would go a long way to both establish gameplay changes and bring us up to speed on story, with the remaining clans in the base set giving a more general backdrop. For example, a L2P set focused on a Lion attack during the celebration of Kanpeki's ascension would work pretty well, with both clans having a military focus and presumably small political backups (Lion for an honor win, Spider for dishonor).

1 hour ago, SirEuain said:

FFG shouldn't tell anyone "Wait and See" for something that was long overdue under AEG. Ideally, new L5R would open with, for instance, Lion winning a decisive victory in a major battle, or Crane politically neutralizing an early Spider gambit. This would be the time for FFG to show players "yes, we hear, understand, and this is what we're doing right now to fix what came before."

assuming the onyx storyline is continued, i wouldn't get your hopes up for this. the whole point of onyx is that the clans lost. you can't tell that story... by starting with the clans kicking butt. put aside the fact that i'm a spider fanboy, and i'm gonna put my storyteller hat on. that doesn't work, as a narrative. you have to establish the baseline, that the clans are beaten, before the payoff, victory, means anything. we, the existing, long time fanbase, may appreciate that the clans "deserve" that win to a degree, but FFG can't and shouldn't build the game solely based on existing fans. The new storyline should strive to, if not be standalone in terms of lore, then at least in terms of the emotional arc. Its one thing to come into a series between A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back. Its another to come in right after the Falcon blasts its way out of the Death Star. Those are two really different kinds of interrupted arcs, and starting a whole new l5r arc with the intention of bringing in new players with "HAHA YEAH EAT IT KANPAKE!" is a hollow win that doesn't mean anything to anyone who wasn't around for Emperor/Ivory.

(random aside: the idea that the crane would be able to do anything to the spider in their own court is kind of goofy. the lion winning a battle, fine. thats one thing, but the crane thing is like me expecting a tainted courtier to shame the crane in his own castle)

your bit about the mantis, tho, i think its a really good point. If FFG is working with the stuff its got, then yeah, its gonna have a weird batch of mantis art. They were gonna be included, but without a stronghold and very much "on the run" so to speak, so that may put them in a weird, disadvantaged place. which isn't to say FFG doesn't have a great stable of artists it can call upon to fill that gap. but its worth noting.

3 hours ago, cielago said:

assuming the onyx storyline is continued, i wouldn't get your hopes up for this. the whole point of onyx is that the clans lost. you can't tell that story... by starting with the clans kicking butt. put aside the fact that i'm a spider fanboy, and i'm gonna put my storyteller hat on. that doesn't work, as a narrative. you have to establish the baseline, that the clans are beaten, before the payoff, victory, means anything. we, the existing, long time fanbase, may appreciate that the clans "deserve" that win to a degree, but FFG can't and shouldn't build the game solely based on existing fans. The new storyline should strive to, if not be standalone in terms of lore, then at least in terms of the emotional arc. Its one thing to come into a series between A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back. Its another to come in right after the Falcon blasts its way out of the Death Star. Those are two really different kinds of interrupted arcs, and starting a whole new l5r arc with the intention of bringing in new players with "HAHA YEAH EAT IT KANPAKE!" is a hollow win that doesn't mean anything to anyone who wasn't around for Emperor/Ivory.

(random aside: the idea that the crane would be able to do anything to the spider in their own court is kind of goofy. the lion winning a battle, fine. thats one thing, but the crane thing is like me expecting a tainted courtier to shame the crane in his own castle)

your bit about the mantis, tho, i think its a really good point. If FFG is working with the stuff its got, then yeah, its gonna have a weird batch of mantis art. They were gonna be included, but without a stronghold and very much "on the run" so to speak, so that may put them in a weird, disadvantaged place. which isn't to say FFG doesn't have a great stable of artists it can call upon to fill that gap. but its worth noting.

Problem is, the Spider's the bad guy that AEG said they weren't going to be. That means the Spider can't be winning, either, or their narrative's just as boring. That's why I pushed for a battle, not a war, or the Crane to (for instance) stymie the Susumu working with the foreign contingent of the Spider. The Spider's won, but it's not a complete win or else the other clans would have bent knee.

Even though I don't truly anticipate this, I think FFG would do well by implementing a significant time jump forward. They would still have to make weighty decisions about what happened and why, but instead of getting bogged down in the specificity (which has been admittedly messy for a while) they could summarize it as "almost forgotten history" and begin to lay the groundwork for a brand new chapter.

I think it would be easier to attract new players, and even give veterans an opportunity to reinvest.

13 hours ago, SirEuain said:

In addition to the above, FFG's got to attract new blood as well as old. One of the previous posts said that the difference between the Scorpion and the Spider as far as story roles was pretty minimal. Consider from a new player's perspective the differences between Dragon and Phoenix -- both are mystical clans who place a greater focus on studying enlightenment and the elements than on politics or alliances, so the primary difference in a newb's eyes would be the relatively minor flavor differences like the player's tastes between wizard-priests and tattooed monks. Likewise, while longtime players know the deep differences between Mantis and Unicorn, both clans are iconoclasts who draw upon cultures far from Rokugan and deal in economic trade outside the Empire. Yes, a world of difference between pirates and Mongols, but are those themes so different as to justify two factions instead of one?

I can see what you mean in regards to Scorpion/Spider and Dragon/Phoenix, but really now: Mantis and Unicorn are practically indistinguishable just because of a couple common elements? The other pairings can be quite similar to newbies, but people who know more of the lore understand the subtle differences. With Mantis and Unicorn, it's precisely the opposite! The newbie is going to see primarily boats/archers vs cavalry, and it's only those who have been around a while who will pick up on the economic and outsider trade aspects. If you're going to use that to justify only having one, you can justify any merging/replacement. Scorpion and Phoenix both rely heavily on Yojimbo, though it's not what either clan is known for (not to mention Bayushi and Shiba were twins!). Dragon and Crane both have a rich dueling tradition. Lion and Mantis both have easy access to Crane lands.

I think a case could definitely be made for not including Mantis in its entirety, especially if cross-clan personalities become more feasible, but not on the grounds of them being too similar to Unicorn, of all clans!

3 hours ago, JJ48 said:

I can see what you mean in regards to Scorpion/Spider and Dragon/Phoenix, but really now: Mantis and Unicorn are practically indistinguishable just because of a couple common elements? The other pairings can be quite similar to newbies, but people who know more of the lore understand the subtle differences. With Mantis and Unicorn, it's precisely the opposite! The newbie is going to see primarily boats/archers vs cavalry, and it's only those who have been around a while who will pick up on the economic and outsider trade aspects.

Not what I said -- I said there was a world of difference in terms of pirates vs. Mongols, but I questioned whether that was sufficient to have two clans with the same core story themes. Especially with the Naga likely to return, is it necessary to have a full third of the factions have the core element that their culture's foreign to the rest of the Empire's?

I'm not arguing in favor of cutting any clan. I don't want it to happen, but from a story and design perspective, any of the clans on the cutting block have the following traits:

1. They don't bring anything truly unique to the table. The Brotherhood of Shinsei were essentially less flashy ise zumi. In story, there's a world of difference between them, but on the table, all it meant was that one of the more popular Dragon themes had enough dual-aligned Monks that the Alliance event was a no-brainer. Likewise, the Ninja were little more than a mashup of Scorpion and Shadowlands, to the point where later devs said it was a mistake to make them a faction at all. If you want to see a newbie wonder what design is thinking, explain to them that the Elemental Dragons were a clan theme for the Phoenix, not the Dragon.
2. It's difficult to set up the mechanics to be consistent and fun. Remember the godawful Ninja strongholds, or the way ancestors and senseis kept weaving in and out of the gameplay? If these had been the primary mechanics of a clan, would the developers have bothered to keep it around without a massive revamp? What about the way the Naga and Ratling decks tended to shell out so many bonuses to each personality and follower that it took forever to calculate how much force was at a battle?
3. The clan in question simply isn't popular enough. Nobody batted an eye when the Ninja or Spirit Clans went away.

Right now, Mantis is checking all three boxes. We know they're not popular enough because AEG was initially axing them again instead of, say, Crab (as noted previously in the thread, Crab and Scorpion could merge at this point in the story, they've got so much in common). The Mantis were no longer especially unique, since whatever story elements the Unicorn didn't take, the returning Naga would, excepting only piracy, which isn't IMO strong enough in itself to justify the Mantis hanging around. The Mantis have also proven difficult to design well, especially of late.

Now, before we go further here, I also want to point out my own clan, the Scorpion, also fits all three criteria -- after a decade of the Spider, it's hard to justify the Scorpion's continued existence in story with Spider in a position of power. Ninja mechanics were nightmarish. By the time of the sale to FFG, the Scorpion boards were nearly vacant, and the people that were there were apathetic. Scorpion's historically important to the setting, to be sure, but FFG could save themselves some headaches by dropping the clan.

Similarly, albeit late in design cycle, AEG also realized it was probably a serious mistake to axe the Mantis, especially since they probably weren't getting those players back if they broke the clan yet again.

In contrast, we do have the Spider, who've made a right mess of design/story interaction. Their promotion to a formal clan was supposed to tie them to the rest of the Empire, and remove the plot armor associated with the Shadowlands being the big bad of the game. Instead, neither happened, with the Spider still actively undermining everyone they could while enjoying immunity to reprisal. The clan's identity is so ingrained on Daigotsu's that even Spider players called Kanpeki's actions leading to Onyx to be essentially running home to daddy, and the very nature of the universe had to bend to justify letting Spider be a faction. As of this past Kotei season, Spider were so favored that they had their own options for corrupting clan themes. Whatever membership the Spider has is probably comparable to the number of people still annoyed or angry at the Spider's role in the center of the story. In a very real sense, the Spider probably cost AEG as much money as did design choices.

All of this would be easier on FFG if, as before Shadowlands Horde, the Spider were no longer a playable faction. At that point, design could make powerful, dangerous personalities and followers, representing the new core of Kanpeki's Empire without caring about themes or balance -- they'd just be the new Onis no Akuma or Tsuburu or Kyoso. The Emperor goes back to being the enemy, unrepresented in game mechanics.

Personally, I think it's a mistake to bring Naga back, just as I think it's a mistake to keep the shallow, magical evil elements of the Spider. It's not my call, though, and I'm trying to look at this as dispassionately as I can.

On 2/18/2017 at 6:20 AM, SirEuain said:

In contrast, we do have the Spider, who've made a right mess of design/story interaction. Their promotion to a formal clan was supposed to tie them to the rest of the Empire, and remove the plot armor associated with the Shadowlands being the big bad of the game. Instead, neither happened, with the Spider still actively undermining everyone they could while enjoying immunity to reprisal. The clan's identity is so ingrained on Daigotsu's that even Spider players called Kanpeki's actions leading to Onyx to be essentially running home to daddy, and the very nature of the universe had to bend to justify letting Spider be a faction. As of this past Kotei season, Spider were so favored that they had their own options for corrupting clan themes. Whatever membership the Spider has is probably comparable to the number of people still annoyed or angry at the Spider's role in the center of the story. In a very real sense, the Spider probably cost AEG as much money as did design choices.

I'd like to point out that the Spider were as much victims of how events and (lack of) story interaction happened.

People majorly misinterpret the "Great Clan dissolved" result at the end of the Race for the Throne. They often forget that even after being "dissolved" they would stay a faction during Celestial and also gain a special storyline. That special storyline ended up being either recreation of the Great Clan or removal of the faction. A special storyline that the Spider ended up going the "Recreation of the Great Clan" path. This is actually what many anti-Spider players refer to when they complain about plot armor mainly from hearing about the storyline result second hand from inattentive players.

Next came the mess with the Imperial Heir during the Destroyer War megagame. In the Destroyer War megagame every clan was trying to gain as many Honor and Glory points as possible from events. During this Spider players teamed up with Unicorn and Phoenix players in what was popularly known among them as the Solar Eclipse Alliance for the map portion of the megagame in which both Honor and Glory points could be gained. Through out the megagame there was a clash between the Horde favoring players (led by card game players who gained Glory points at events) and Samurai favoring players (who gained Honor points at events). The Samurai favored players ended up winning the clash by donating most of their Honor points to the Empire where towards the end they ended up one point behind the Crane as highest donator to the Empire. The prize that the highest honor donator to the Empire would get would be the honor of raising the Imperial Heir. The winner of the last honor event (a Pheonix) gave their 2 points to the Spider in order to make things interesting. Players angry about the Spider winning the Heir started complaining and this is likely why we got Seiken (first son Heir) and Shibatsu (Spider raised second son) instead of only one Heir.

After that, Goddesses happened which pissed almost everyone off. It was a 4 part story that came out towards the end of the 2011 Kotei season. In this Kotei season, the Destroyers were advancing their way through the Scorpion Lands. Winners of the Kotei and the Kotei's honor contest would chose a character of their clan and had the option to either delay the destruction of the province the Kotei was assigned or let it be destroy and get various goodies for their clan. One of the Provinces to be defended was Kyuden Ashinagabachi (Castle of the Wasp) and a group led by members of the Scorpion player base conspired to destroy it. As the Kotei season went on various choices were made and Kyuden Ashinagabachi ended up being the location of the Final Battle of the Destroyer War. With winners of the final Kotei choosing in favor of saving the province, Kyuden Ashinagabachi was saved. Players could not wait for the story of this final battle, and then Goddesses moves the final battle away from Kyuden Ashingabachi to a unnamed temple in the Scorpion lands where an Imperial Legion and the Spider Clan battle the destroyers, the widely dislike "Gempuku Gang" open a black scroll to empower Fu Leng (who had been traveling with them as Furumaro) to fight Kali Ma, leading to Fu Leng's death, Daigotsu seppukuing, ascending and then beating Kali Ma. They tried to justify it by saying that the Spider gave the most points to the Empire's success (Spider gave the most glory which was to stop the zombie Plague while the Lion actually gave the most Glory which was to stop the Destroyers).

Finally you have the messy and mostly meaningless choosing the Heir at WC4 which screwed the Spider over no matter which candidate won completely due to Exodus of the Spider being printed in Thunderous Acclaim and Onyx being Shadowlands conquers Rokugan.